The Administration Of Tongues

[OzSpen]

Since we're talking about context let's note that the "we" is Paul and the Corinthians, not you and I. His statement about seeing face to face says nothing about seeing Jesus. He contrasts two things, the present where he sees things through a class darkly (In other words things aren't clear) with seeing someone face to face. When you see someone face to face it is clear. Then he says now I know in part but then (when the maturity comes) I will have full knowledge. In both of these he speaks of a now and then. In the first example he spoke of being a child and growing to maturity.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. (1 Cor. 13:11 KJV)

I submit that the next two sentences which speak of a now and then are tied to this statement of being a child and maturing to man. The now is as a child and the then is as a man. Now as a child we see through a glass darkly and now as child I know. But then, as a man I will see face to face. But then, I will have full knowledge. The whole section is speaking of a process of mating

That right there tells us that he isn't referring to the coming of Christ. Jesus said He would come as thief in the night. That's a quick event not a process of growing from a child to a man. Additionally, he said that after, prophecy, tongues, and knowledge, ceased, Faith, hope, and love would remain. Paul said that faith is,

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb. 11:1 KJV)

When Jesus returns He will be seen so faith won't be needed. likewise he said that hope that is seen isn't hope.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. (Rom. 8:24-25 KJV)

So, when Jesus returns we won't need faith and hope, yet Paul said that after prophecy, tongues, and knowledge, ceased, faith, and hope would continue. This would put the coming of the perfect, the maturity, before the return of Christ.

He says that prophecy and knowledge will cease when the perfect (maturity) comes and the word cease is in the passive voice. That means something will cause them to cease. That obviously would be the coming of the maturity. However, when he says that tongues will cease he uses a middle voice verb for cease. This means that there isn't something that will make tongues cease but rather tongues will cease of its own accord. Since Isaiah tells us that tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel of the judgment that was coming. Once that judgment came the purpose of tongues would have fulfilled and thus not be necessary any longer.

Butch,

The context is for tongues ceasing, based on I Cor 13:12 (ESV), 'For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known' (emphasis added).

The 'now' addresses the Corinthian's contemporary existence and the contrast is with 'then'. The 'now' involves only knowing partially, but the 'then' is when I (and you) and the Corinthians 'shall know fully' just as 'I have been fully known'.

When will the Corinthians and I know fully just as we are fully known? That will be in the Eschaton - at the second coming of Jesus.

I am not convinced the whole process is talking of maturing, but that, based on v 11, Paul is not talking about childishness and then growing up by maturing. He is allowing v. 12 to interpret the meaning of v. 11. But v. 12 confirms what v. 11 is all about. He's telling us that there will come a time when the gifts will pass away and that is when the other comes. When the Corinthians and all believers will know fully in the Eschaton.

You want the 'we' to refer to Paul and the Corinthians only. Not so. Are you wanting to tell me that the other sections of 1 Cor apply only to Paul and the Corinthians? Is the 'love' of 1 Cor 13 only to apply to Paul and the Corinthians and nobody else? If 'love never ends' (1 Cor 13:8), it is a travesty of exegesis to make that apply only to Paul and the Corinthians. What's the point of having 1 Cor 13 in the Bible if it is to apply only to Paul and the Corinthians and not to apply to all Christians?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Yeah, he's addressing the Corinthians.

No,

Paul makes that exceptionally clear at the beginning of 1 Cor with 1 Cor 1:7 (ESV), 'So that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ'.

Paul leaves no doubt as to how long the Corinthians will need spiritual gifts. They will need them until 'the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ', which is at the Eschaton - Christ's second coming. Chapter 1:7 lays the foundation for the gifts and it does not agree with your conclusion.

Yes, he was addressing the Corinthians, but as with the rest of the NT, he is addressing all Christians. This is confirmed in 2 Tim 3:16 (ESV), 'All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness'. It doesn't say, 'All Scripture except 1 Cor 13'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

I agree that 1 Cor. 13 is likely not referring to the ceasing of tongues and so forth. However, I think a couple of things are clear: First, various gifts were used for very specific purposes. The Apostles had incredible power from God to heal people with their shadows or with cloth they had touched. They were able to raise the dead and survive poisonous snake bites. Now, I doubt you would argue that there are people walking around today who are healing people with their shadows and raising the dead. Can God still raise the dead? Yes. Are these miraculous gifts being displayed in this manner today? No. The Word of God was being confirmed by the Apostles and so these gifts had a purpose. So, I think it is safe to say that certain gifts had specific purposes that may not be needed or utilized today.

Wormwood,

I'll respond to just the first paragraph of your post. Yes, the early church was given incredible power to heal. Are the miracles of healing being displayed around the world today, including the raising of the dead? You say, No! Have you been to every culture in the world where a Christian church has been planted to check this out? I doubt it. Therefore, your statement, 'Are these miraculous gifts being displayed in this manner today? No. The Word of God was being confirmed by the Apostles and so these gifts had a purpose. So, I think it is safe to say that certain gifts had specific purposes that may not be needed or utilized today', does not have a ring of truth to it because you will not have checked out the whole world of believers and the manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

This I do know: According to John 14:12 (ESV), Jesus stated, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father'.

This verse refers to all believers, 'whoever believes'. What will they do?
(1) 'The works that I do' - the works that Jesus did;
(2) 'And greater works than these will he do'.

D. A. Carson is no evangelical, theological lightweight. In his commentary on the book of John he states of point (1) that it is

focusing on the fruitfulness that anyone who has faith in Jesus (ho pisteuon eis eme - an expression that embraces all believers, not just the apostles) will enjoy. The promise is staggering: the person with such faith, Jesus says, will do what I have been doing. Indeed, he will do even greater things than these - not because he is greater, but because I am going to the Father.
The things (erga, 'works', cf. v. 11) Jesus has been doing, and the greater things that follow, cannot legitimately be restricted to deeds of humility (13:15) or acts of love (13:34-35), still less to proclamation of Jesus' 'words' (v. 10). Jesus' 'works may include more than his miracles; they never exclude them. But even so, greater works is not a transparent expression.... (Carson 1991:495).

It is clear that Jesus' promise is that his supernatural works would be available among all who believe and he gave not a word about their ceasing. I believe what Jesus said when I speak about acceptance of Jesus' miracles as continuing today. Why should these happen? Jesus has left the human race as the God-man after his ascension and has returned to the Father and his ministry of 'works' (including miracles) needs to continue through all believers.

How dare I refuse to accept what Jesus said should be a ministry available through ALL believers until he returns.

James Bramlett has written the book, The Power (Xulon Press). In Appendix 1, there is a section, 'Actual miracles and healing'. Are you prepared to tell us that all of the miraculous healings that Bramlett records in this section are lies and that they never happened? Are you prepared to follow up these examples to demonstrate that they are fake?

Oz

Works consulted
Carson, D A 1991. The Gospel According to John. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press / Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

In sum, I simply do not see anything in the NT that suggests that "tongues" is anything other than actual human languages that were given in the form of miraculous acts of praise amongst those who had never studied or learned the language in which they were praising God.

Wormwood,

To the contrary, I do not see anything in 1 Cor 12-14 that says that Paul was identifying 'actual human languages' when he addresses speaking in tongues.

However, I'm not going to make a big deal with you over whether they were actual human languages or not. The fact is that tongues was a supernatural gift of the Spirit. The purpose of it was that a person could build up himself (14:4), but the preference was for prophecy so that unbelievers and outsiders would be convicted and called to account, 'the secrets of his heart is disclosed and so falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you' (1 Cor 14:24-25 ESV).

One of the great tragedies of the contemporary church is that it has moved from every-member ministry potential to a select-few ministry. I long for the day when I Cor 14:26 (NIV) happens in more and more church gatherings: 'What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up'.

Oz

 

[Wormwood]

I'll respond to just the first paragraph of your post. Yes, the early church was given incredible power to heal. Are the miracles of healing being displayed around the world today, including the raising of the dead? You say, No! Have you been to every culture in the world where a Christian church has been planted to check this out? I doubt it. Therefore, your statement, 'Are these miraculous gifts being displayed in this manner today? No. The Word of God was being confirmed by the Apostles and so these gifts had a purpose. So, I think it is safe to say that certain gifts had specific purposes that may not be needed or utilized today', does not have a ring of truth to it because you will not have checked out the whole world of believers and the manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

Oz, thank you for your response. Just for clarification, I am not saying miracles do not happen today. I am saying the "gift of miracles" is likely not in operation (at least not to the degree we see with Paul and the Apostles). I think if there was someone walking around healing hundreds and thousands of people from incurable diseases with his shadow or calling people to walk out of their graves, striking people blind with a word and having personal visions and interactions with Jesus, then we would all likely hear about it. Appealing to some distant village where someone may have such remarkable powers but we just don't know about it is not very convincing to me. It's like saying there could have been many people like Moses performing seas to split and turning the Nile into blood, but we just don't have record of it. I just don't think these things were common practice and we should not expect them to be common today. Again, some gifts served a specific purpose. The Israelites did not expect the Red Sea to be split yearly to confirm God's presence and deliverance of Israel. Nor do I think we should expect Pentecost or miraculous powers to take place regularly to confirm what God has already established.

This verse refers to all believers, 'whoever believes'. What will they do?
(1) 'The works that I do' - the works that Jesus did;
(2) 'And greater works than these will he do'.

I appreciate DA Carson, and I don't think he is arguing that we have modern day Apostles walking around with those gifts. I think the "greater things" can refer to miracles (again, I think the intervention of a miracle to a prayer or faith is one thing...the gift of performing miracles regularly is quite another). However, I think it most likely refers to the fact that Christians have the power to proclaim forgiveness of sins, and usher the Holy Spirit into the lives of those who respond by faith. Pentecost occurred after Jesus' earthly ministry, so while his "greater things" does not exclude the acts of miraculous, I think there are greater things than physical miracles taking place when someone receives the Gospel and is baptized into the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and reception of the Holy Spirit.

Are you prepared to tell us that all of the miraculous healings that Bramlett records in this section are lies and that they never happened? Are you prepared to follow up these examples to demonstrate that they are fake?

My aim is not to discount anyone's personal experiences. I just think 1) that the Apostles did seem to do some miraculous things that even exceeded some of what Christ did (perhaps, at least, in regularity) and 2) that its hard to say someone could do "greater things" than Jesus by way or miracles since its pretty hard to do more than raise the dead, give sight to the blind, make the lame walk and turn a loaf of Wonder Bread into an entire supermarket of bread loaves which suggests, 3) that these "greater things" are likely not referring to the mere power of the individual to do supernatural feats, but to accomplish things on a spiritual dimension that Christ never accomplished. Watching a person freed from sin due to the blood of Christ, filled with the eternal God via the Spirit and empowered to live a transformed life by the power of the resurrection is likely the "greater things" that are in the primary view here.

I think Acts confirms this as we do not see many "miracle workers" among the common people. It seems the miracles were done predominately by the Apostles (cf. Acts 2:43; Acts 4:33). Miracles took place when congregations prayed, but we just don't see "miracle working" as a regular teaching amongst the people in the congregation in the NT.

 

[Wormwood]

One of the great tragedies of the contemporary church is that it has moved from every-member ministry potential to a select-few ministry. I long for the day when I Cor 14:26 (NIV) happens in more and more church gatherings: 'What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up'.

While I disagree with you on tongues, I agree with your concerns about the contemporary church. Everyone has a gift from the Holy Spirit and the church is not a place for "professionals" only. All people should contribute with the gifts they have been given. If not, then the church is not meeting its potential..and leaders are there to assist people in stepping out in faith and using their gifts, not in stifling their gifts by making the gatherings all about them and their gifts.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, thank you for your response. Just for clarification, I am not saying miracles do not happen today. I am saying the "gift of miracles" is likely not in operation (at least not to the degree we see with Paul and the Apostles). I think if there was someone walking around healing hundreds and thousands of people from incurable diseases with his shadow or calling people to walk out of their graves, striking people blind with a word and having personal visions and interactions with Jesus, then we would all likely hear about it. Appealing to some distant village where someone may have such remarkable powers but we just don't know about it is not very convincing to me. It's like saying there could have been many people like Moses performing seas to split and turning the Nile into blood, but we just don't have record of it. I just don't think these things were common practice and we should not expect them to be common today. Again, some gifts served a specific purpose. The Israelites did not expect the Red Sea to be split yearly to confirm God's presence and deliverance of Israel. Nor do I think we should expect Pentecost or miraculous powers to take place regularly to confirm what God has already established.

I appreciate DA Carson, and I don't think he is arguing that we have modern day Apostles walking around with those gifts. I think the "greater things" can refer to miracles (again, I think the intervention of a miracle to a prayer or faith is one thing...the gift of performing miracles regularly is quite another). However, I think it most likely refers to the fact that Christians have the power to proclaim forgiveness of sins, and usher the Holy Spirit into the lives of those who respond by faith. Pentecost occurred after Jesus' earthly ministry, so while his "greater things" does not exclude the acts of miraculous, I think there are greater things than physical miracles taking place when someone receives the Gospel and is baptized into the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and reception of the Holy Spirit.

My aim is not to discount anyone's personal experiences. I just think 1) that the Apostles did seem to do some miraculous things that even exceeded some of what Christ did (perhaps, at least, in regularity) and 2) that its hard to say someone could do "greater things" than Jesus by way or miracles since its pretty hard to do more than raise the dead, give sight to the blind, make the lame walk and turn a loaf of Wonder Bread into an entire supermarket of bread loaves which suggests, 3) that these "greater things" are likely not referring to the mere power of the individual to do supernatural feats, but to accomplish things on a spiritual dimension that Christ never accomplished. Watching a person freed from sin due to the blood of Christ, filled with the eternal God via the Spirit and empowered to live a transformed life by the power of the resurrection is likely the "greater things" that are in the primary view here.

I think Acts confirms this as we do not see many "miracle workers" among the common people. It seems the miracles were done predominately by the Apostles (cf. Acts 2:43; Acts 4:33). Miracles took place when congregations prayed, but we just don't see "miracle working" as a regular teaching amongst the people in the congregation in the NT.

Wormwood,

I don't know what's happening with notifications from CB. I was not advised by email of your response to me.

Now to your points and I'll need to be brief as bed is calling.

1. Where did this happen in the NT?

I am saying the "gift of miracles" is likely not in operation (at least not to the degree we see with Paul and the Apostles). I think if there was someone walking around healing hundreds and thousands of people from incurable diseases with his shadow or calling people to walk out of their graves, striking people blind with a word and having personal visions and interactions with Jesus, then we would all likely hear about it.

If that were happening in the Central African Republic or in Myanmar, I doubt that you or I would be hearing about it. Who are you and I to announce that the 'gift of miracles' is not in operation? I find that to be presumptuous.

2. You are not addressing what I wrote about John 14:12 (ESV) when you said,

I appreciate DA Carson, and I don't think he is arguing that we have modern day Apostles walking around with those gifts. I think the "greater things" can refer to miracles (again, I think the intervention of a miracle to a prayer or faith is one thing...the gift of performing miracles regularly is quite another).

Don Carson's commentary on John 14:12 states that the 'greater works',

• 'is not a transparent expression. It cannot simply mean more works - i.e. the church will do more things then Jesus did, since it embraces so many people over such a long period of time'. There were other Greek ways of saying that.
• 'Nor can greater works mean "more spectacular" or "more supernatural" works: it is hard to imagine works that are more spectacular or supernatural than the raising of Lazarus from the dead, the multiplication of bread and turning of water into wine';
• 'Their works become greater precisely because of the new order that has come about subsequent on his going to the Father ... displays of resurrection and judgment (cf. 5:17, 24-26)' (Carson 1991:495-496).

Remember that before Jesus mentioned the 'greater works', he said the unbelievable in our cessationist day and age, 'Whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do' (John 14;12 ESV) and that DOES include the miracles of Jesus.

3. What about the continuing gift of apostles?

I think Acts confirms this as we do not see many "miracle workers" among the common people. It seems the miracles were done predominately by the Apostles (cf. Acts 2:43; Acts 4:33).

But the 'we do not seem many "miracle workers" among the common people' is contrary to what Jesus promised in John 14:12 (ESV). you are reluctant to admit the continuing gift of apostles, but Paul wasn't afraid to teach the continuing need of such. We are happy to affirm the gifts of evangelists, pastors and teachers, but apostles are definitely not for today.

Paul didn't read it that way. He taught the Ephesians (and us, by application), 'And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes' (Eph 4:11-14 ESV). When will we need these gifts for these purposes? From Jesus time until kingdom come. We need them until the Eschaton. Let's not forget that in the time of Jesus and the early church there were more apostles than the 12. See 1 Cor 12:28 (ESV).

1 Cor 15: 3-9 (NASB) reads:

3 For [SIZE=66%]a[/SIZE]I delivered to you [SIZE=66%]1[/SIZE]as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died [SIZE=66%]b[/SIZE]for our sins [SIZE=66%]c[/SIZE]according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was [SIZE=66%]a[/SIZE]raised on the third day [SIZE=66%]b[/SIZE]according to the Scriptures,
5 and that [SIZE=66%]a[/SIZE]He appeared to [SIZE=66%]b[/SIZE]Cephas, then [SIZE=66%]c[/SIZE]to the twelve.
6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some [SIZE=66%]a[/SIZE]have fallen asleep;
7 then He appeared to [SIZE=66%]1[/SIZE][SIZE=66%]a[/SIZE]James, then to [SIZE=66%]b[/SIZE]all the apostles;
8 and last of all, as [SIZE=66%]1[/SIZE]to one untimely born, [SIZE=66%]a[/SIZE]He appeared to me also.
9 For I am [SIZE=66%]a[/SIZE]the least of the apostles, [SIZE=66%]1[/SIZE]and not fit to be called an apostle, because I [SIZE=66%]b[/SIZE]persecuted the church of God.

Note that there are two groups of apostles in this 1 Cor 15 passage, 'the twelve' and 'all the apostles'. In the time of the early church there were more apostles than the 12 and 'all the apostles' excludes Paul as he adds, 'He appeared to me also'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

While I disagree with you on tongues, I agree with your concerns about the contemporary church. Everyone has a gift from the Holy Spirit and the church is not a place for "professionals" only. All people should contribute with the gifts they have been given. If not, then the church is not meeting its potential..and leaders are there to assist people in stepping out in faith and using their gifts, not in stifling their gifts by making the gatherings all about them and their gifts.

I invite you to raise this issue with your local church and see the reaction from the pastoral few and the elders. That's why I'm particularly attracted to the house church movement as it, by it's nature, allows for the possibility of God's people ministering to one another when the church gathers, with the smaller gathering.

However, in my part of the world it's nigh impossible to find a house church. I was able to find one and it provided a wonderful example of charismatic chaos with people rolling on the floor and shouting and screaming in true Toronto-Pensacola style.

Ralph Neighbour's Where Do We Go from Here? provides an excellent model of the cell church in action.

Oz

 

[Wormwood]

Oz,

Thanks for your response....

If that were happening in the Central African Republic or in Myanmar, I doubt that you or I would be hearing about it. Who are you and I to announce that the 'gift of miracles' is not in operation? I find that to be presumptuous.

I am not sure what your stance is on this matter, but most Christians I have discussed this issue with want to make the book of Acts normative for daily Christian life. Also, they want to claim that 1 Cor. where everyone had these gifts in a local church should be the experience of churches today. Paul teaches that the purpose of these gifts was to build up the body (I'm assuming local body since Paul was writing to Christians in Corinth). So, it doesn't make sense to me to say that the gifts of miracles, wonders, signs and so forth exist, but its probably happening in remote places and not in our local bodies today. If the purpose of these gifts was to build up the local body, why wouldn't we see it regularly? If you claim that its rare because its functional, then you are making the same argument I am making. I never said it was impossible for someone to have the gift of miracles. I said it was unlikely. We don't see it in our churches today with any real regularity (if at all). Thus, it likely has a specific purpose. In my mind, it seems likely that the purpose was to confirm the early message just as God confirmed Moses to be his messenger with signs and wonders but did not continue those same types of signs and wonders year after year to confirm a message that was already established before Israel. Make sense?

'Their works become greater precisely because of the new order that has come about subsequent on his going to the Father ... displays of resurrection and judgment (cf. 5:17, 24-26)' (Carson 1991:495-496).

Yes, I think that was the same argument I was making. I think spiritual resurrection is "greater" than merely a physical one. Lazarus died after he was resurrected. Those who are raised in Christ will never die.

Remember that before Jesus mentioned the 'greater works', he said the unbelievable in our cessationist day and age, 'Whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do' (John 14;12 ESV) and that DOES include the miracles of Jesus.

But didn't the Apostle Paul indicate that not everyone would do miracles? Not all were Apostles? Not all were prophets? So, is Paul contradicting Jesus? Does this relative pronoun really indicate that all believers are expected to perform greater works than Jesus (if one demands these works are inclusive of miracles)? I don't think so. I think the focus in the context is that Jesus is the way by which all people can access the Father. Those who have and love Jesus have direct access to the Father. They can speak to the Father and, as EM Bounds declared, "prayer can do anything God can do." I think that is the point. I don't think the point is that every believer should be able to raise the dead as Jesus raised the dead...or perhaps they aren't really a believer.

But the 'we do not seem many "miracle workers" among the common people' is contrary to what Jesus promised in John 14:12 (ESV). you are reluctant to admit the continuing gift of apostles, but Paul wasn't afraid to teach the continuing need of such. We are happy to affirm the gifts of evangelists, pastors and teachers, but apostles are definitely not for today.

I assure you that my views on the apostles and their works is not merely based on experience. Pretty much every definition we have of the Apostles in the NT indicates that these were people who had witnessed the resurrected Christ and were given a specific message with specific instructions. They were hand-picked, as it were, by Jesus for a particular task. The Apostles are the "foundation" of the church with Jesus as the chief cornerstone. I don't think you continually lay a foundation when you build. The foundation is laid, and we are built upon it. I think Paul is very clear in this matter. I would refer you to my citations on Apostles and Prophets. I think the burden of proof is on you to show biblically that Apostles were not a foundational role or that an Apostle could be designated as such without a direct call from Jesus and without witnessing the resurrected Christ. Every text that explains the role of an Apostles uses these qualifiers to indicate what an Apostle is.

Paul didn't read it that way. He taught the Ephesians (and us, by application), 'And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes' (Eph 4:11-14 ESV). When will we need these gifts for these purposes? From Jesus time until kingdom come. We need them until the Eschaton. Let's not forget that in the time of Jesus and the early church there were more apostles than the 12. See 1 Cor 12:28 (ESV).

We have the words of Paul and the Apostles in the NT. We don't need continual Apostles to bring new revelations like the Mormons. We have the faith once established for the saints. Paul said if anyone preached a Gospel other than the one he preached, such a person should be "eternally condemned." So, if not to bring revelation from God, what does an Apostle do in your estimation? It seems to me that the definition of an Apostle is "one sent" by God with a message/revelation from Jesus Christ. That is what the term means...apostle of Jesus Christ = sent ambassador from Jesus Christ. How does 1 Cor 12:28 indicate more apostles than the 12 and Paul? I think there could have been more, but its clear that an apostle was one who witnessed first hand the resurrection.

“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.” (1 Corinthians 15:3–10, ESV)

Why would he say "last of all" if Apostles were popping up all over the place? Clearly Paul saw himself as the last of the Apostles to whom the resurrected Christ appeared, with a unique task (preach Christ to the Gentiles).

 

[emekrus]

Oz,

Thanks for your response....


I am not sure what your stance is on this matter, but most Christians I have discussed this issue with want to make the book of Acts normative for daily Christian life. Also, they want to claim that 1 Cor. where everyone had these gifts in a local church should be the experience of churches today. Paul teaches that the purpose of these gifts was to build up the body (I'm assuming local body since Paul was writing to Christians in Corinth). So, it doesn't make sense to me to say that the gifts of miracles, wonders, signs and so forth exist, but its probably happening in remote places and not in our local bodies today. If the purpose of these gifts was to build up the local body, why wouldn't we see it regularly? If you claim that its rare because its functional, then you are making the same argument I am making. I never said it was impossible for someone to have the gift of miracles. I said it was unlikely. We don't see it in our churches today with any real regularity (if at all). Thus, it likely has a specific purpose. In my mind, it seems likely that the purpose was to confirm the early message just as God confirmed Moses to be his messenger with signs and wonders but did not continue those same types of signs and wonders year after year to confirm a message that was already established before Israel. Make sense?




Oh, Mr. Wormwood, so you mean you've not seen a congregation where the gifts of working of miracles is in consistent manifestation. Well, I do. There are a number of them in my Country-Nigeria. Just an example : "Synagogue Church of All Nations". For more details, check out emmanuel.tv. If you watch the streaming, I'm sure you're going to see countless working of miracles in operation.

I don't fellowship there. But I believe by the grace of God, the spirit of God will start manifesting those gifts in the same magnitude, in my own ministry, in the process of time and spiritual maturity.

 

[Wormwood]

Oh, Mr. Wormwood, so you mean you've not seen a congregation where the gifts of working of miracles is in consistent manifestation. Well, I do. There are a number of them in my Country-Nigeria. Just an example : "Synagogue Church of All Nations". For more details, check out emmanuel.tv. If you watch the streaming, I'm sure you're going to see countless working of miracles in operation.

I don't fellowship there. But I believe by the grace of God, the spirit of God will start manifesting those gifts in the same magnitude, in my own ministry, in the process of time and spiritual maturity.

Maybe there are some great miracles taking place in Nigeria, I wouldn't try to discount that. I just don't think it has anything to do with spiritual maturity or expecting/not expecting miracles. Corinth was perhaps the most carnal church one could imagine in the NT, and they had all the gifts (according to Paul). The fruit of the Spirit is a sign of spiritual maturity, not tongues or miracles. IMO

 

[pom2014]

Therein lies the rub.

Those that are milk feed crave miracles and physical manifestations of spirit. They require signs and proof of God.

So they are eager to see such things and sometimes that eagerness allows others to deceive them. The enemy does this routinely.

But far more dangerous are the ones so wanting of great happenings that they will give into self delusion. They will cause themselves to believe anything and everything. This accounts for everything from angels at the foot of their bed to images of Jesus in toast.

So hungry to believe they believe all things even when it makes no sense to do so. This is where bad doctrine springs and where abuse abounds.

Here is the gift of discernment is more needed than any other one.

Blind faith is not faith at all.

 

[pom2014]

Therein lies the rub.

Those that are milk feed crave miracles and physical manifestations of spirit. They require signs and proof of God.

So they are eager to see such things and sometimes that eagerness allows others to deceive them. The enemy does this routinely.

But far more dangerous are the ones so wanting of great happenings that they will give into self delusion. They will cause themselves to believe anything and everything. This accounts for everything from angels at the foot of their bed to images of Jesus in toast.

So hungry to believe they believe all things even when it makes no sense to do so. This is where bad doctrine springs and where abuse abounds.

Here is the gift of discernment is more needed than any other one.

Blind faith is not faith at all.

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

The context is for tongues ceasing, based on I Cor 13:12 (ESV), 'For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known' (emphasis added).

The 'now' addresses the Corinthian's contemporary existence and the contrast is with 'then'. The 'now' involves only knowing partially, but the 'then' is when I (and you) and the Corinthians 'shall know fully' just as 'I have been fully known'.

When will the Corinthians and I know fully just as we are fully known? That will be in the Eschaton - at the second coming of Jesus.

I am not convinced the whole process is talking of maturing, but that, based on v 11, Paul is not talking about childishness and then growing up by maturing. He is allowing v. 12 to interpret the meaning of v. 11. But v. 12 confirms what v. 11 is all about. He's telling us that there will come a time when the gifts will pass away and that is when the other comes. When the Corinthians and all believers will know fully in the Eschaton.

You want the 'we' to refer to Paul and the Corinthians only. Not so. Are you wanting to tell me that the other sections of 1 Cor apply only to Paul and the Corinthians? Is the 'love' of 1 Cor 13 only to apply to Paul and the Corinthians and nobody else? If 'love never ends' (1 Cor 13:8), it is a travesty of exegesis to make that apply only to Paul and the Corinthians. What's the point of having 1 Cor 13 in the Bible if it is to apply only to Paul and the Corinthians and not to apply to all Christians?

Oz,

Paul doesn't say all Christians If we're going to talk about exegesis let's do it correctly. Paul also says to the Corinthians, "you are carnal" would you that apply to all Christians? He says to them, "you are puffed up" prideful, would you apply that to all Christians? He tells them they are not spiritual, would you would you apply that to all Christians. We can't just take a broad brush and say everything written to Christians applies to every Christian.

You say ever Christian will "fully know" when Christ returns, what will they fully know? When

The word that translated perfect means maturity. It seems that along with his example of growing from a child to a man is pretty clear that he is referring to a process. He writes of growing knowing in part and prophesying in Part, which he compares to being a child. Then he says when the maturity comes his prophecy and knowledge will be complete and he will put away childish things. He intimates that they are childish things that would be put away once the maturity was come. The question becomes, what is the maturity? What is the subject of the prophecy and knowledge? it was the Gospel. In Isaiah the message was this is the rest. What did Jesus say? ' Come all you who labor and I will give you rest.' Well, the Gospel messsage did reach a point of completion or maturity. Jude told his readers to contend for the faith that was "Once" handed down to the saints.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

Thanks for your response....


I am not sure what your stance is on this matter, but most Christians I have discussed this issue with want to make the book of Acts normative for daily Christian life. Also, they want to claim that 1 Cor. where everyone had these gifts in a local church should be the experience of churches today. Paul teaches that the purpose of these gifts was to build up the body (I'm assuming local body since Paul was writing to Christians in Corinth). So, it doesn't make sense to me to say that the gifts of miracles, wonders, signs and so forth exist, but its probably happening in remote places and not in our local bodies today. If the purpose of these gifts was to build up the local body, why wouldn't we see it regularly? If you claim that its rare because its functional, then you are making the same argument I am making. I never said it was impossible for someone to have the gift of miracles. I said it was unlikely. We don't see it in our churches today with any real regularity (if at all). Thus, it likely has a specific purpose. In my mind, it seems likely that the purpose was to confirm the early message just as God confirmed Moses to be his messenger with signs and wonders but did not continue those same types of signs and wonders year after year to confirm a message that was already established before Israel. Make sense?




Oh, Mr. Wormwood, so you mean you've not seen a congregation where the gifts of working of miracles is in consistent manifestation. Well, I do. There are a number of them in my Country-Nigeria. Just an example : "Synagogue Church of All Nations". For more details, check out emmanuel.tv. If you watch the streaming, I'm sure you're going to see countless working of miracles in operation.

I don't fellowship there. But I believe by the grace of God, the spirit of God will start manifesting those gifts in the same magnitude, in my own ministry, in the process of time and spiritual maturity.

Than you, emekrus, for making such a profound contribution to this discussion. May the Lord bless and encourage your ministry.

SCOAN's (Synagogue Church of All Nations) minister/prophet is T B Joshua. Take a read of, 'How real are T.B Joshua’s miracles?' (Vanguard, September 27, 2014).

See also,'About TB Joshua' and 'The Religious Monitor' (Dove Ministries, New Zealand).

Yes, there are criticisms of him in articles such as, 'Profit of Doom : An expose’ on T.B. Joshua of The Synagogue, Church Of All Nations, Nigeria' (For the Love of His Truth).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

The word that translated perfect means maturity. It seems that along with his example of growing from a child to a man is pretty clear that he is referring to a process.

Butch,

That's your assertion. You have not provided the exegesis. Now please tell us the meaning of hotan de elthe to teleion to ek merous katargethesetai (1 Cor 13:10 Greek NT).

Oz

 

[HammerStone]

Well, in respect to the OP, I see some of the tongues language as problematic because it becomes a litmus test for some manifestation of a form of second baptism. In many circles it's a sort of faith test that distinguishes "the real" (mature) Christians from lesser Christians and I find this problematic given that it was discussed a handful of times in the Bible. It also becomes a bar of faith to be reached in that if it does not occur in areas, then the implication is that the church or other gathering lacks sufficient Spirit power or faith.

I am very sympathetic to some arguments about tongues, but I have found this quasi-requirement status to be a real hangup. It begins to border on the Pharisaical.

 

[OzSpen]

Maybe there are some great miracles taking place in Nigeria, I wouldn't try to discount that. I just don't think it has anything to do with spiritual maturity or expecting/not expecting miracles. Corinth was perhaps the most carnal church one could imagine in the NT, and they had all the gifts (according to Paul). The fruit of the Spirit is a sign of spiritual maturity, not tongues or miracles. IMO

Wormwood,

Who are you to say that the miracles taking place in Nigeria today do not have anything to do with spiritual maturity? You seem to be inferring that the Nigerian church is immature and that miracles are happening there because of Christian immaturity. Is that what you are affirming?

Who said the fruit of the Spirit is a sign of spiritual maturity and the gifts of the Spirit are not for the spiritually mature? You seem to be going against what Scripture teaches in your view on tongues: 'Now I want you all to speak in tongues....' (1 Cor 14:5 ESV) and 'Do not forbid speaking in tongues' (1 Cor 14:39 ESV).

Oz

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

That's your assertion. You have not provided the exegesis. Now please tell us the meaning of hotan de elthe to teleion to ek merous katargethesetai (1 Cor 13:10 Greek NT).

Oz

No, it's not my assertion. However, you didn't answer my question. When Paul calls the Corinthians carnal would apply that to all Christians? What about when he says they are not all spiritual, does that apply to all Christians?

 

[OzSpen]

No, it's not my assertion. However, you didn't answer my question. When Paul calls the Corinthians carnal would apply that to all Christians? What about when he says they are not all spiritual, does that apply to all Christians?

No, it's not my assertion. However, you didn't answer my question. When Paul calls the Corinthians carnal would apply that to all Christians? What about when he says they are not all spiritual, does that apply to all Christians?

Butch5,

You wrote: 'The word that translated perfect means maturity'. I said that this was your assertion and I was accurate because you provided no exegesis of the word in that sentence.

When Paul called the Corinthians (remember it's a church he's writing to), he called them 'carnal'. Does that apply to all Christians? Please remember that Paul is not writing to all members of the Corinthian church individually. He's writing to a church. He's telling the church it is carnal.

Have a guess what? In 54 years of being a Christian, I've never been a member of any Christian church that did not fit Paul's description like a hand in a glove - being carnal.

Now please get down to the exegesis of the text rather than giving your assertion.

Oz