I wish I had my bible to every verse Im about to quote but I don'tbut look in you concoordansce under faith and you'll see these verses.KJV "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God""Be not hearers only but doers of the word..."These verses seem to clash, so does make the bible a lie?GOD FORBID!"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of thingsnot seen"so I say, if you're going to talk about something in the bible, it has to go with "all" the rest of the bible too or else your argument is in vein.true, that faith was all Jesus required of the people he blessed, but you must also know that Jesus knew their hearts just as he knew what the Phararasees were conspiring against him...and that's why he's the one true judge.
Is faith (belief) enough?
- Thread starter RichardBurger
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
(Letsgofishing;50597)
Just asking Kriss, but what exactly is repentance. wouldn't that be considered work??
You're right, it could be. That is why Jesus said there is only one unforgivable sin--blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. This sin can no longer be committed once a person repents (turns to God, and change your mind about who He is), and places his or her trust in Christ. If a person is enlightened and persuaded by God's Holy Spirit to do this, and refuses, he or she will be doomed.If a person, however, has done this (repented and trusted Christ) repentance is no longer a matter of salvation when we sin... it's a matter of service to God, and restoring our relationship with Him--like the prodigal son.
Just asking Kriss, but what exactly is repentance. wouldn't that be considered work??
You're right, it could be. That is why Jesus said there is only one unforgivable sin--blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. This sin can no longer be committed once a person repents (turns to God, and change your mind about who He is), and places his or her trust in Christ. If a person is enlightened and persuaded by God's Holy Spirit to do this, and refuses, he or she will be doomed.If a person, however, has done this (repented and trusted Christ) repentance is no longer a matter of salvation when we sin... it's a matter of service to God, and restoring our relationship with Him--like the prodigal son.
sorry LGF I dont see the connection every believer is required to believe and repent. I see Works as something other than what all must do. Example does just showing up at your job and doing the minum required of you get you a raise or promtion?
Goldy I believe treeoflife is correct. And I can see how you see these things as works because I also see it as the same. Personally I find this whole catolic and protestant debate pretty stupid. I mean lets agree to disagree because this is one of the things destroying Christianity.Anyway back to the works thing. You see if you truly believe in Jesus you would understand what He did for you. He died to give you life in abundance. He knew that sin would be bad for us, and He loves us so He died so that we do not have to life in sin. So if you believe in Him and sin you will repent and still be saved, but you will stop sinning(or try) because you know Jesus died to give you life not JUST in heaven, but hear on earth as well. The Bible is like this perfect book that shows us what to do in every situation. God did not just say ok do not steal and get drunk ect. because He wanted to give us laws He said it because He loves us He does not want you to sit in jail and be punished or get so drunk you will do something you regret.If you truly believe in what Jesus did you will see that doing those things are stupid, and your works will change unless your a complete idiot. Unfortunatly we as humans are idiots me included and still chose to sin when we let the devil blind us, but if you believe you will repent. Why will you repent? Because you see that your ways are stupid and lead you to the worst life ever. If Jesus did not die for you, you would never be able to get out of sin. So if you truly believe why would you go back to sin. Its true that the devil blinds us sometimes which leads us back to sin, but the more your faith grows the more your works will natuarly grow. The only thing that gets you to heaven is faith. Why would you do good things without faith??? Faith and works are linked,but I do not think we as humans will ever be able to fully agree on how.
(Craig19;50614)
Goldy I believe treeoflife is correct. And I can see how you see these things as works because I also see it as the same. Personally I find this whole catolic and protestant debate pretty stupid. I mean lets agree to disagree because this is one of the things destroying Christianity.Anyway back to the works thing. You see if you truly believe in Jesus you would understand what He did for you. He died to give you life in abundance. He knew that sin would be bad for us, and He loves us so He died so that we do not have to life in sin. So if you believe in Him and sin you will repent and still be saved, but you will stop sinning(or try) because you know Jesus died to give you life not JUST in heaven, but hear on earth as well. The Bible is like this perfect book that shows us what to do in every situation. God did not just say ok do not steal and get drunk ect. because He wanted to give us laws He said it because He loves us He does not want you to sit in jail and be punished or get so drunk you will do something you regret.If you truly believe in what Jesus did you will see that doing those things are stupid, and your works will change unless your a complete idiot. Unfortunatly we as humans are idiots me included and still chose to sin when we let the devil blind us, but if you believe you will repent. Why will you repent? Because you see that your ways are stupid and lead you to the worst life ever. If Jesus did not die for you, you would never be able to get out of sin. So if you truly believe why would you go back to sin. Its true that the devil blinds us sometimes which leads us back to sin, but the more your faith grows the more your works will natuarly grow. The only thing that gets you to heaven is faith. Why would you do good things without faith??? Faith and works are linked,but I do not think we as humans will ever be able to fully agree on how.
To tell you the truth, I am not Catholic, I am neither protestant of any kind. I am a Christian by FAITH. And yes denomination vs denominations are pointless. I rather stick in and read on what God says only.
Goldy I believe treeoflife is correct. And I can see how you see these things as works because I also see it as the same. Personally I find this whole catolic and protestant debate pretty stupid. I mean lets agree to disagree because this is one of the things destroying Christianity.Anyway back to the works thing. You see if you truly believe in Jesus you would understand what He did for you. He died to give you life in abundance. He knew that sin would be bad for us, and He loves us so He died so that we do not have to life in sin. So if you believe in Him and sin you will repent and still be saved, but you will stop sinning(or try) because you know Jesus died to give you life not JUST in heaven, but hear on earth as well. The Bible is like this perfect book that shows us what to do in every situation. God did not just say ok do not steal and get drunk ect. because He wanted to give us laws He said it because He loves us He does not want you to sit in jail and be punished or get so drunk you will do something you regret.If you truly believe in what Jesus did you will see that doing those things are stupid, and your works will change unless your a complete idiot. Unfortunatly we as humans are idiots me included and still chose to sin when we let the devil blind us, but if you believe you will repent. Why will you repent? Because you see that your ways are stupid and lead you to the worst life ever. If Jesus did not die for you, you would never be able to get out of sin. So if you truly believe why would you go back to sin. Its true that the devil blinds us sometimes which leads us back to sin, but the more your faith grows the more your works will natuarly grow. The only thing that gets you to heaven is faith. Why would you do good things without faith??? Faith and works are linked,but I do not think we as humans will ever be able to fully agree on how.
To tell you the truth, I am not Catholic, I am neither protestant of any kind. I am a Christian by FAITH. And yes denomination vs denominations are pointless. I rather stick in and read on what God says only.
It would seem to me Works must be something more than about self belief and repentance is about self and your relationship with the holy spirit. If works was about repenting or not sinning its about self. I believe works must be about spreading this outside ones self. I think that is what James was saying.That becoming a new person is wanting to spread this love of your father out to the world. A drink to a stranger, a coin to a beggar what ever the case I dont believe works is all about self.
(kriss;50606)
sorry LGFI dont see the connection every believer is required to believe and repent. I see Works as something other than what all must do. Example does just showing up at your job and doing the minum required of you get you a raise or promtion?
But doing the mininum is saying you believe in jesus Christ and thats it. repenting is going above and beyond. Its changing your whole life around for christ. and how do you change your whole life around without works. Ive tried its impossible. So yes I believe that repentance can be known as good works.
sorry LGFI dont see the connection every believer is required to believe and repent. I see Works as something other than what all must do. Example does just showing up at your job and doing the minum required of you get you a raise or promtion?
But doing the mininum is saying you believe in jesus Christ and thats it. repenting is going above and beyond. Its changing your whole life around for christ. and how do you change your whole life around without works. Ive tried its impossible. So yes I believe that repentance can be known as good works.
Since repentance is also being discussed on this thread I thought I would add something I wrote about it.Repentance:To the religious mind, repenting of sins is something that a person does, at some time or other, to ask for forgiveness. I say it this way because, for them, they must pick a time and go to God in a prayer of words and ask for forgiveness. To them, it is not a "CONSTANT ATTITUDE" of the heart.True repentance "IS" a "CONSTANT ATTITUDE" of the heart and is not an action that is done at some place or time. --- It is constantly acknowledging (admitting to God) that you are a sinful person in the flesh and that you need His forgiveness, the need for God, who paid for your sins, to save you from your sinful nature in the flesh. --- It is constantly trusting (having faith) in the forgiveness that you have "in Christ" because of what Jesus (God) did on the cross. -- It is a constant humble walk with God (the Holy Spirit that lives in your heart) in honesty, without deceit, and trusting in Him to save you from your sins. -- To be exact it is and attitude of the heart and it is not a ritual that you do at some place or time.Ps 32:1-21 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.2 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.(NKJ)Deceit = dishonesty / a person saying they have no sin is being dishonest (deceitful) with God. Therefore having a constant honest attitude of acknowledging your sinful nature to God and placing your faith, trust, confidence, and hope in God's work on the cross to save you is true repentance. A person that does not acknowledge his/her sins (sinful nature) is being dishonest with God and will feel no need to have an attitude of repentance.Luke 18:11-1411 "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men-- extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.12 'I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'13 "And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."(NKJ)Food for thoughtRichard
(thesuperjag;50590)
What you said Goldy is in vain...it doesn't work that way. It is not about what God can do for you. It is about what we can do for God.
Hmmmm, you just said, "It is about what we can do for God". Sounds like you're a big believer in works as well. Good on ya, mate!!
What you said Goldy is in vain...it doesn't work that way. It is not about what God can do for you. It is about what we can do for God.
Hmmmm, you just said, "It is about what we can do for God". Sounds like you're a big believer in works as well. Good on ya, mate!!
(treeoflife;50591)
Amen, you can do all those things and be secure in salvation. Your sin is not a matter of salvation, because salvation is not by works.However, I cannot say amen to the lifestyle. It is very foolish. You will waste the life God has given you--don't count on God using you to bring anyone into His kingdom. Perhaps you can serve as an example of how not to live. Furthermore, you may very well suffer great physical consequences (punishment from others in the world, perhaps jail, or other physical/health problems) for these choices in this life, and you will have to own up for it in heaven when we all go before Christ to give an account. We will all go before His thrown and be judged according to the good or evil we have done. It isn't a matter of salvation, but Jesus says to put our treasure in heaven... and I recommend you do that instead. If you want to be a waste on earth, and a popper in heaven (though saved by His grace)... by all means. But it's a dumb choice.
YOu said, "We will all go before His thrown and be judged according to the good or evil we have done". What we "have done" is our WORKS, isn't it? But if our works have nothing to do with our salvation, how can we be judged according to what we have done? Does that make sense? What we have done shouldn't play into any of this.....according to your past posts.
Amen, you can do all those things and be secure in salvation. Your sin is not a matter of salvation, because salvation is not by works.However, I cannot say amen to the lifestyle. It is very foolish. You will waste the life God has given you--don't count on God using you to bring anyone into His kingdom. Perhaps you can serve as an example of how not to live. Furthermore, you may very well suffer great physical consequences (punishment from others in the world, perhaps jail, or other physical/health problems) for these choices in this life, and you will have to own up for it in heaven when we all go before Christ to give an account. We will all go before His thrown and be judged according to the good or evil we have done. It isn't a matter of salvation, but Jesus says to put our treasure in heaven... and I recommend you do that instead. If you want to be a waste on earth, and a popper in heaven (though saved by His grace)... by all means. But it's a dumb choice.
YOu said, "We will all go before His thrown and be judged according to the good or evil we have done". What we "have done" is our WORKS, isn't it? But if our works have nothing to do with our salvation, how can we be judged according to what we have done? Does that make sense? What we have done shouldn't play into any of this.....according to your past posts.
(kriss;50595)
What does that have to do with anything how is it you aquiant going out and getting drunk with works? Sis are sins has nothing to do with works. If you want to go sin then we have a little thing in Christianity called repentance of sins. You are arguing this point from your catholic point of veiw not from scripture. And it was the reason for the split in the church so the fact you are on the other side is understandable but it doesnt change the Word of God.
Okay fine. Do you want scripture? Start with James 2. Go to Mt. 7:21, Mt. 19:16-17, Jn. 14:21, Rom. 2:2-8, Gal. 5:4-6, Eph. 2:8-10, Phil. 2: 12-13. Kriss, I'm sick and tired of hearing a lot of you say that I never argue from scripture. But what would be the point? If I argue my point from scripture, you will just come back with, "That's not what it means" or "You're wrong". I prefer to use more practical means to make arguments because it all goes back to your fallible INTERPRETATION. And 'round and round we go......
What does that have to do with anything how is it you aquiant going out and getting drunk with works? Sis are sins has nothing to do with works. If you want to go sin then we have a little thing in Christianity called repentance of sins. You are arguing this point from your catholic point of veiw not from scripture. And it was the reason for the split in the church so the fact you are on the other side is understandable but it doesnt change the Word of God.
Okay fine. Do you want scripture? Start with James 2. Go to Mt. 7:21, Mt. 19:16-17, Jn. 14:21, Rom. 2:2-8, Gal. 5:4-6, Eph. 2:8-10, Phil. 2: 12-13. Kriss, I'm sick and tired of hearing a lot of you say that I never argue from scripture. But what would be the point? If I argue my point from scripture, you will just come back with, "That's not what it means" or "You're wrong". I prefer to use more practical means to make arguments because it all goes back to your fallible INTERPRETATION. And 'round and round we go......
(goldy;50707)
(thesuperjag;50590)
What you said Goldy is in vain...it doesn't work that way. It is not about what God can do for you. It is about what we can do for God.
Hmmmm, you just said, "It is about what we can do for God". Sounds like you're a big believer in works as well. Good on ya, mate!!If you think God actually please with lies and cares for the worldly things...think again...Man, I'm so tired of people walking all over Christ and pervert Him to their lowly human mind.
(thesuperjag;50590)
What you said Goldy is in vain...it doesn't work that way. It is not about what God can do for you. It is about what we can do for God.
Hmmmm, you just said, "It is about what we can do for God". Sounds like you're a big believer in works as well. Good on ya, mate!!If you think God actually please with lies and cares for the worldly things...think again...Man, I'm so tired of people walking all over Christ and pervert Him to their lowly human mind.
(thesuperjag;50713)
If you think God actually please with lies and cares for the worldly things...think again...Man, I'm so tired of people walking all over Christ and pervert Him to their lowly human mind.
Huh?????
If you think God actually please with lies and cares for the worldly things...think again...Man, I'm so tired of people walking all over Christ and pervert Him to their lowly human mind.
Huh?????
(goldy;50711)
Okay fine. Do you want scripture? Start with James 2. Go to Mt. 7:21, Mt. 19:16-17, Jn. 14:21, Rom. 2:2-8, Gal. 5:4-6, Eph. 2:8-10, Phil. 2: 12-13. Kriss, I'm sick and tired of hearing a lot of you say that I never argue from scripture. But what would be the point? If I argue my point from scripture, you will just come back with, "That's not what it means" or "You're wrong". I prefer to use more practical means to make arguments because it all goes back to your fallible INTERPRETATION. And 'round and round we go......
Sorry Goldy but from our perspective its unavoidable its like looking at the World with your sunglasses on. You see it the way you see it but others do not see through your glasses their are many times when you run up against a rock and a hard place where scripture says one thing but you have to deny it because it would go against your Religion. Thats Why we say that. God never intened his Book to read through the eyes of a religious denomination. But you can see no other way. This isnt a personal thing against you. But we are never going to see it through your sunglasses. And you can not see without them.
Okay fine. Do you want scripture? Start with James 2. Go to Mt. 7:21, Mt. 19:16-17, Jn. 14:21, Rom. 2:2-8, Gal. 5:4-6, Eph. 2:8-10, Phil. 2: 12-13. Kriss, I'm sick and tired of hearing a lot of you say that I never argue from scripture. But what would be the point? If I argue my point from scripture, you will just come back with, "That's not what it means" or "You're wrong". I prefer to use more practical means to make arguments because it all goes back to your fallible INTERPRETATION. And 'round and round we go......
Sorry Goldy but from our perspective its unavoidable its like looking at the World with your sunglasses on. You see it the way you see it but others do not see through your glasses their are many times when you run up against a rock and a hard place where scripture says one thing but you have to deny it because it would go against your Religion. Thats Why we say that. God never intened his Book to read through the eyes of a religious denomination. But you can see no other way. This isnt a personal thing against you. But we are never going to see it through your sunglasses. And you can not see without them.
(Letsgofishing;50594)
Its funny Kriss, you have just explained the catholic belief of salvation by faith and works.
We are saved by faith alone "but if the person claims to be a believer but has no good works in his life,he is likely to not have a genuine faith in Christ"-Kriss you either have faith and works. If you have only works you are not saved, and if you have only faith, you are not living your faith. good to hear you agree with us catholics for once
.
I think where the differences come in LGF is what are Works??perhaps thats the real question here?
Its funny Kriss, you have just explained the catholic belief of salvation by faith and works.
I think where the differences come in LGF is what are Works??perhaps thats the real question here?
(goldy;50710)
YOu said, "We will all go before His thrown and be judged according to the good or evil we have done". What we "have done" is our WORKS, isn't it? But if our works have nothing to do with our salvation, how can we be judged according to what we have done? Does that make sense? What we have done shouldn't play into any of this.....according to your past posts.
I'll say it again. Works do not save. We are saved by grace through faith. Not of works, lest any man boast. You cannot and will not ever be justified by your works when it comes salvation. Jesus died and so All SIN has been blotted out. It is sin, or our state of being *in sin that keeps us from heaven. When God looks at us, he will see us sinless, not in sin, but perfect and without blemish--He will see Christ. For all those who are IN CHRIST, are new creation. All things have become new.
YOu said, "We will all go before His thrown and be judged according to the good or evil we have done". What we "have done" is our WORKS, isn't it? But if our works have nothing to do with our salvation, how can we be judged according to what we have done? Does that make sense? What we have done shouldn't play into any of this.....according to your past posts.
I'll say it again. Works do not save. We are saved by grace through faith. Not of works, lest any man boast. You cannot and will not ever be justified by your works when it comes salvation. Jesus died and so All SIN has been blotted out. It is sin, or our state of being *in sin that keeps us from heaven. When God looks at us, he will see us sinless, not in sin, but perfect and without blemish--He will see Christ. For all those who are IN CHRIST, are new creation. All things have become new.
Romans 5:12-16 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
We are not longer in sin. We have passed from death to life by the gift of God in Christ. It's over, it is finished... it's a done deal. Can't go to hell. We are given the free gift from God, in Christ's work on the cross.We will though, however, be judged by our works on whatever is not a matter of sin, in heaven. Our good and bad will be weighed, and each will be given accordingly. However, at this point, we already have salvation. We are in heaven, it's a done deal. Christ has paid our sin debt. Now on to getting even more gifts from God, according to our works.Revelation 2:23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Whenever we are told that we will be judged by works, it is always a matter of what God will give us, in His mercy, according to our works. Some will be rich, and some will be found lacking. It is never a matter of salvation.We are saved by grace through faith. Not of works, lest any man boast.My view on this is that repentance is not nessarily Works. When a new Christians first believes and repents and is filled with the holy spirit Whats the first thing one is moved to do? You have a desire that is almost overwhelming to share this with anyone who will listen. This is the beginning of making of a new person the scripture speaks of. You suddenly want to share this love and enlightingwith all around you. I think this is the first Works one does is to show the World we are saved and loved by our father. We want everyone to experience this as we have it isnt about ourselfs at this point we want everyone to feel God. I believe works are an extension of this. If we give a hungry man a meal it must come from your heart that you want to help the mans hunger go away because you are moved by love and sympathy for the man. If you do it with a wrong heart that is,saying I dont want to stop and do this its probaly his own fault he is starving, but hey I will feed the man because God will give me a gold star. Your heart is wrong. No gold star for you, because the act was totally selfish it was all about you. I think Works are about the things we do not because we are thinking about building up ourselves, but because of the love,compassion God has given us we are moved to our feel the same towards another Sometimes its a simple as a smile to a sad child, you do this because you are moved in your heart to make the child feel better.Im not saying repenting can not be a type works I just dont think if all your Works are about yourself your going to be wearing many clothes when you stand before God.
(kriss;50717)
Sorry Goldy but from our perspective its unavoidable its like looking at the World with your sunglasses on. You see it the way you see it but others do not see through your glasses their are many times when you run up against a rock and a hard place where scripture says one thing but you have to deny it because it would go against your Religion. Thats Why we say that. God never intened his Book to read through the eyes of a religious denomination. But you can see no other way. This isnt a personal thing against you. But we are never going to see it through your sunglasses. And you can not see without them.
Kriss, You said, "God never intended his Book to be read through the eyes of a religious denomination". So whose eyes should I read it through? Yours? SuperJag's? TreeofLife's? Whose eyes are right? God's Word is infallible. But your INTERPRETATION isn't infallible. Whether you want to believe it or not, there are 33,000 non-Catholic "religions" on this planet. And don't even go there with me on that one. The Catholic Church isn't a denomination.....it's the only Church. The true and visible Church, the Apostolic Church. But that's a whole other debate, isn't it?
Sorry Goldy but from our perspective its unavoidable its like looking at the World with your sunglasses on. You see it the way you see it but others do not see through your glasses their are many times when you run up against a rock and a hard place where scripture says one thing but you have to deny it because it would go against your Religion. Thats Why we say that. God never intened his Book to read through the eyes of a religious denomination. But you can see no other way. This isnt a personal thing against you. But we are never going to see it through your sunglasses. And you can not see without them.
Kriss, You said, "God never intended his Book to be read through the eyes of a religious denomination". So whose eyes should I read it through? Yours? SuperJag's? TreeofLife's? Whose eyes are right? God's Word is infallible. But your INTERPRETATION isn't infallible. Whether you want to believe it or not, there are 33,000 non-Catholic "religions" on this planet. And don't even go there with me on that one. The Catholic Church isn't a denomination.....it's the only Church. The true and visible Church, the Apostolic Church. But that's a whole other debate, isn't it?
(goldy;50726)
The Catholic Church isn't a denomination.....it's the only Church. The true and visible Church, the Apostolic Church.
Thank God that isn't true.
The Catholic Church isn't a denomination.....it's the only Church. The true and visible Church, the Apostolic Church.
Thank God that isn't true.
Similar threads
