Works

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RichardBurger

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Not sure if I posted this before. I went back over 8 pages and couldn't find it. So I will post it anew.Works:Richard, old: So, correct me if I am wrong, you are saying that faith in what God did on the cross is not enough, that "FAITH IN" the work that Jesus (God) did on the cross is just not enough to save a person. Salvation by God's grace is not free but that a person "MUST" do something to earn his/her salvation?XXXX responded: No, Richard, that is just your distorted view of my position. What Christ did on the cross is enough...absolutely enough... but we **must** respond to what he has done. We are saved by gods grace alone (not faith alone). Our faith is a response to that. Our works are a sign of true faith and not a dead one. We are enabled to have faith and accomplish works only because of Gods grace. There is no diminishment of what Christ accomplished only the point that we must respond to it.Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.********************You start out saying that "what Christ did on the cross is enough" and then say "BUT" we "MUST" respond in works. That is like saying ALL the furniture in the room has been moved out BUT there is a chair in the room. The last parts of the statements contradict the first parts.Sorry XXXX but reading what you wrote I can't see that your salvation is by God's grace since you insist that a person "MUST" do works in order to respond to God's grace. If salvation is by God's grace then why "MUST" a person pay for it in any way? Can't you see that if a person "MUST " respond with works then that person is still under a law and that is not grace. The Jews had to do the works of the law to show their faith. But it became all attempted works and no faith. I see the idea you have expressed as leading the Church to the same condition. The "MUST" or "HAVE TO" is making many go out, and by their own choice and efforts, do good works that are not really what God (the Spirit) is leading them to do. They are being led by their own efforts, and will, to do good works that they think will show their faith, and that is not God working through them for His purpose. They are works for the man's purpose.If you said we "SHOULD" or we "WANT TO" do good works in response to what Jesus did for us, then I can go along with it just as Paul said in Romans 7 "the things I want to do I don't do." It is the choice of words you use and you can't seem to see it. When you say we "MUST" or "HAVE TO" do works you add our own efforts to God's work of salvation. It negates the words of Hebrews 4:9-10.By the way, God knows whether a person has faith in His Son or not. He knows if it is sincere. A child of God does not have to prove anything to men and they are honest with God admitting their sinful nature. Man's judgment of the children of God cannot, and does not, save or condemn them. (Romans 14:4) But I understand where it all comes from. In just about every book I read, written by religious writers, they use the same words you do, "MUST" and "HAVE TO." See the books by Max Anders and John MacArthur. People love theses book and think the authors are wonderful. But they are books that teach that Christianity is all about moral social living.You said, "We are saved by gods grace alone (not faith alone)." When you add our works it isn't grace alone is it? Yours is a perversion of the word "grace" and is not the truth. John and Paul said that it is our faith that overcomes the world, not our faith and works. (1 John 5:4) (Galatians 3:2-5)If a person feels they "MUST" or "HAVE TO" do good works, then the good works they are doing are not freely given, they are given to help purchase (earn) their salvation since the teaching is that they "MUST" or "HAVE TO" respond with good works. Your statement above contributes to this feeling. ----- This is how I see it and your contradictory statement hasn't changed my mind.Richard
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Craig19

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Apr 26, 2008
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Faith without works is dead. Faith is more than enough and will always be. Your works show if your faith is real. Would you believe me if I said I was the greatest artist in the world if I could not show this to be true? If you believe in Jesus your works must be proof of this. If you do not have works you have to ask yourself do you truly believe?
 

treeoflife

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Apr 30, 2008
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Faith without works is dead... but what happens if your faith dies? Does God become unfaithful to keep His promise?When we are unfaithful, He remains faithful still. He cannot deny Himself.Just because faith is dead... that does not mean God is unfaithful. We are not saved by our faithfulness to Him... we are saved by His faithfulness to us, period.
 

Craig19

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Apr 26, 2008
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If your faith is dead you are not saved what I am trying to say is how can one claim to have faith if you have no works to support it? I am tired of every second person saying they are Christian and clearly they are not thus they turn others away from Christianity. How can you claim to be rich if you can not back it up with money? How can you claim to have faith if you cannot back it up with works?Faith is all you need, but to have faith you need works. It is all linked. I mean I can say I believe but I sin non stop, do I truly believe then? No I do not.
 

treeoflife

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Apr 30, 2008
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(Craig19;52213)
If your faith is dead you are not saved what I am trying to say is how can one claim to have faith if you have no works to support it? I am tired of every second person saying they are Christian and clearly they are not thus they turn others away from Christianity. How can you claim to be rich if you can not back it up with money? How can you claim to have faith if you cannot back it up with works?Faith is all you need, but to have faith you need works. It is all linked. I mean I can say I believe but I sin non stop, do I truly believe then? No I do not.
So, in order to stay saved, we must maintain our faith? Otherwise, we are not saved? Or... what?I share your frustration with those who only give lip service to God and live contrary... nevertheless, it is not of works. I do not argue with God's choice to save the rebellious and sinful people of this world, you and me included. I leave the deciding to God, who was saved and who was not. All I know is that we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. God will seperate the sheep from the goats in the end, and the difference will be those who knew Him and those who did not. I know you know this.
 

Craig19

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Apr 26, 2008
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I agree fully with what you are saying. The thing is I am actually angry at the devil because he fools so many people.I believe that most people's views on this subject are actually the same the way we explain it is what differs.What I am trying to get at is lets say we have two people who have sex before marriage both claim they are Christians. Now the 1 says ok God forgives me I know this is wrong but its nice so lets do it. The other one tries his best to fight trying to keep away from sin but everyone makes mistakes and steps in the devils traps. The thing I am trying to get at is although they make the same mistake there attitudes differ and I believe they differ because the one truly has faith and the other is being fooled by the devil in thinking he has faith.These are just my thought and as such are meaningless only God will judge. And how He judges or what He judges we can only speculate.
 

RichardBurger

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Jan 23, 2008
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(Craig19;52207)
Faith without works is dead. Faith is more than enough and will always be. Your works show if your faith is real. Would you believe me if I said I was the greatest artist in the world if I could not show this to be true? If you believe in Jesus your works must be proof of this. If you do not have works you have to ask yourself do you truly believe?
There is that word MUST again. But who is the judge of our works? Is it man or God? Obviously it is man to hear some.I am reminded of the story Jesus told of the owner of a field that hired men at different times of the day and then paid all of the workers the same pay. Some were jealous. Is that what we see in those that want to judge others?Ted Turner, a devout Atheist, has given much away in Charity. He has the works. Is he a Christian?
 

Craig19

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Apr 26, 2008
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No he is not like I said it is linked works without faith is useless and faith without works is dead, but like you said who judges the works? Only God judges. All I am trying to say is if you truly have faith it will start showing.
 

treeoflife

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Apr 30, 2008
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No he is not like I said it is linked works without faith is useless and faith without works is dead, but like you said who judges the works? Only God judges. All I am trying to say is if you truly have faith it will start showing.
And, you are right. Works are very much so related to faith, and should spring (and will spring) from our faith in Him. Faith without works is dead. Richard is also right, and works are not the indicator that someone has been saved that we like to think they are. Jesus said that there would be many who would be pointing to their works and begging Him, "Lord Lord," but are astounded that they would not be entering heaven. Jesus holds this thing against them... "I never KNEW you..."If Ted Turner (as given by example) were to be saved... his works prior to salvation would be no more beneficial to him as his works after salvation. In respect to salvation, his works are equally useless--as are ours
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. Not of works, lest any man boast.As much as I would *like* to inpsire good works in other believers, the answer will never be to change the Gospel of grace into one of works. There are other ways. That would be an interesting topic. In what way can we inspire eachother to good works? What things do we know about Him that would inspire us to good works? We know we should... but some of us need more proding than others.
 

Craig19

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Apr 26, 2008
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Tree I agree with you, your works before you are saved are useless, but your works after salvation can be benifficial. God rewards those who love Him. And if I am not mistaken there is something like different crowns in heaven concerning your works. The Bible says that God will judge us according to what we have done. The problem is people think they can be God and they judge wrongly. People were never made to judge, only God should. And again you should not be doing good works to get a reward your works follow because of your love for God and others, but rewards will follow God takes care of the ones who love Him
 

treeoflife

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Apr 30, 2008
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(RichardBurger;52260)
If we prod others to do good works what is their motives for doing them?Richard
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I don't know what the motive for doing them will be. Who can examine the heart and know it? I suppose the motive for doing works will be found there, in the heart... and God knows. We can prod or encourage eachother to do good works though.
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Jesus did.
Matthew 19:28-30: And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first​
I suppose if Jesus wanted to keep that secret, He could have. Revealing this to us really does nothing for us, if it isn't supposed to encourage us to follow Him, do as He does... IE, good works. He could have sprung this one on us in heaven, but He didn't. He gave it to us before heaven... to prod us to do good works.
Matthew 6:19-21: Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.​
The motivating factors here are these: Not only will we have treasure in heaven by doing good works... but in doing them they will not always benefit us here; however, our good works will benefit us in heaven. Furthermore, where we place our treasure, our hearts will follow.So, not only will we have treasure *in the future* in heaven eternally (this is a promise)... but if we want our heart to be on things above *right now*, we should start investing in the kingdom *right now*, and our hearts will follow.For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. I say teach the truth, and leave men's motives to God.
 

treeoflife

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Apr 30, 2008
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(Craig19;52276)
Tree I agree with you, your works before you are saved are useless, but your works after salvation can be benifficial. God rewards those who love Him. And if I am not mistaken there is something like different crowns in heaven concerning your works. The Bible says that God will judge us according to what we have done. The problem is people think they can be God and they judge wrongly. People were never made to judge, only God should. And again you should not be doing good works to get a reward your works follow because of your love for God and others, but rewards will follow God takes care of the ones who love Him
You're right, our works are beneficial. Just not to our salvation. There will be treasure in heaven for the good we do in the name of Christ
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