Penal Substitution Theory and the presupposed (eisegesis) definition of מוּסָר in Isaiah 53:5

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Steve Owen

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Scripture states that Christ was wounded for our transgressions. But you add "instead of us" and claim that this is "punishment".

The issue is not Scripture or what it obviously states. The issue is these little additions you slip in (perhaps without even realizing it) to change the meaning to suit Penal Substitution Theory.

This is dishonest and dangerous because were you teaching others they may not know that Scripture does not actually contain those things you add. Perhaps you should consider the warning that God gives to teachers before you decide it is acceptable to alter Scripture to your liking.
See my post #97 where I deal with this.
 

Steve Owen

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Opinion? The bible is clear that the wages of sin is death...not eternal torment.
Matthew 25:46. 'And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'
Wicked atheists will not be able to sin all through their lives and then have happen to them exactly what they were expecting anyway. No! 'There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
 

Nondenom40

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I'd say the absence of life. Physical death is the absence of physical life, spiritual death is the absence of spiritual life.

I just never heard it defined as "separation". Where does that come from?
When the body dies, does the spirit stay inside of it? Or does the spirit go somewhere else? After the 2nd death when the lost are thrown into the lake of fire they are separated from God, for eternity. Separation or absence? Whats the difference? Or are you arguing for the sake of arguing?
 

John Caldwell

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When the body dies, does the spirit stay inside of it? Or does the spirit go somewhere else? After the 2nd death when the lost are thrown into the lake of fire they are separated from God, for eternity. Separation or absence? Whats the difference? Or are you arguing for the sake of arguing?
No. I was wondering where you got the definition, that's all. It seemed odd to me (I was wondering, not arguing).
 

Episkopos

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Matthew 25:46. 'And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'
Wicked atheists will not be able to sin all through their lives and then have happen to them exactly what they were expecting anyway. No! 'There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'


That's not hell fire...there is more than one kind of punishment. Otherwise how could Sodom fare better than Capernaum and Bethsaida?

Outer darkness is not hell fire.
 
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Jay Ross

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Hello,

In post # 12 above, I referenced the below passage from the with respect to this thread.

2 Kings 5:1-19: - Naaman's Leprosy Healed

5:1 Now Naaman, commander of the army of the king of Syria, was a great and honorable man in the eyes of his master, because by him the Lord had given victory to Syria. He was also a mighty man of valor, but a leper. 2 And the Syrians had gone out on raids, and had brought back captive a young girl from the land of Israel. She waited on Naaman's wife. 3 Then she said to her mistress, "If only my master were with the prophet who is in Samaria! For he would heal him of his leprosy." 4 And Naaman went in and told his master, saying, "Thus and thus said the girl who is from the land of Israel."

5 Then the king of Syria said, "Go now, and I will send a letter to the king of Israel."

So, he departed and took with him ten talents of silver, six thousand shekels of gold, and ten changes of clothing. 6 Then he brought the letter to the king of Israel, which said,

Now be advised, when this letter comes to you, that I have sent Naaman my servant to you, that you may heal him of his leprosy.

7 And it happened, when the king of Israel read the letter, that he tore his clothes and said, "Am I God, to kill and make alive, that this man sends a man to me to heal him of his leprosy? Therefore please consider, and see how he seeks a quarrel with me."

8 So it was, when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his clothes, that he sent to the king, saying, "Why have you torn your clothes? Please let him come to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel."

9 Then Naaman went with his horses and chariot, and he stood at the door of Elisha's house. 10 And Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, "Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh shall be restored to you, and you shall be clean." 11 But Naaman became furious, and went away and said, "Indeed, I said to myself, 'He will surely come out to me, and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, and wave his hand over the place, and heal the leprosy.' 12 Are not the Abanah and the Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?" So he turned and went away in a rage. 13 And his servants came near and spoke to him, and said, "My father, if the prophet had told you to do something great, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, 'Wash, and be clean'?" 14 So he went down and dipped seven times in the Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his aides, and came and stood before him; and he said, "Indeed, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, except in Israel; now therefore, please take a gift from your servant."

16 But he said,"As the Lord lives, before whom I stand, I will receive nothing." And he urged him to take it, but he refused.

17 So Naaman said, "Then, if not, please let your servant be given two mule-loads of earth; for your servant will no longer offer either burnt offering or sacrifice to other gods, but to the Lord. 18 Yet in this thing may the Lord pardon your servant: when my master goes into the temple of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand, and I bow down in the temple of Rimmon — when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord please pardon your servant in this thing."

19 Then he said to him, "Go in peace." So, he departed from him a short distance.​

Perhaps some people can see how the above passage parallels the discussion in this thread.

Shalom
 

Steve Owen

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I think it's time to summarize the debate on this thread. In the O.P. @John Caldwell discussed the meaning(s) of the Hebrew word Musar, translated chastisement in Isaiah 53:5. He wrote:
John Caldwell said:
Mounce (Complete Expository Dictionary) notes that the word can mean "correction" or "discipline". There are several Hebrew words that point to punishment, but the one we are dealing with here does not.
However, I was able to point to two instances of musar where "punishment" is certainly the most appropriate translation, proving that 'punishment' is certainly within its semantic range. John did not see fit to discuss either instance.

Next, @David Taylor informed John that several lexicons and/or dictionaries gave 'punishment' as a possible meaning of musar.
David Taylor said:
The word is listed as punishment as a viable definition in MANY lexicons.
@John Caldwell challenged him to list them (post #22) and in post #47, resorted to mocking:
John Caldwell said:
There is absolutely nothing "academic" about your refusal to explain how you arrive at your theories or your treatment of your unlisted secret lexicons as a smorgasbord from which to choose a meaning you like.
However, when David, n post #59, produced several quotations from lexicons in support of his post#20, there was no apology from @John Caldwell, merely a change of tack (post #64). He now asked for reasons to see 'punishment' in Isaiah 53:5. I had already answered that; the reason is context. Isaiah 53:5 is in the midst of words that speak of punishment: 'stricken,' 'smitten,' 'afflicted,' 'wounded,' 'bruised,' 'stripes,' oppressed,' ' cut off.' To translate musar as 'instruction' or teaching' flies in the face of the context.

Finally, John suggests that 'stricken,' 'smitten,' 'afflicted,' 'wounded,' 'bruised,' 'stripes,' oppressed,' ' cut off' do not suggest punishment. So what do they suggest? Teaching? What sort of school did John attend?? However, I went on to show (posts #82 & 97) that such well-known authorities as Motyer and Delitzsch say that 'for,' as in 'He was pierced for our transgressions' means that Christ was pierced because of our transgressions, which He had taken upon Himself.

So, the O.P. has been answered in full and @John Caldwell has PMd me to say that he is withdrawing from the thread, which is just as well because his arguments have been roundly defeated, I shall also bow out, unless anybody has a further question relating to the O.P.
 

Episkopos

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It isn't just Jesus Christ who takes on the sins of the world...so do His followers. They are hated for His name's sake. And in this is a great reward. Hated in this life...beloved in heaven.

Jesus purchased the world back from the devil in order to give us choices. To turn from evil and do what is right...AND the higher option of forsaking our lives and following Him.

It was the devil that put Jesus to death on the cross. Had he understood the ways of God...he would not have slain the Lord of glory.

1 Cor. 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

It seems that people have a great difficulty in discerning the difference between God and the devil...between the will of men and the will of God. Putting Jesus to death was the strategy of Satan and his followers. God's ways as so far above what the devil and his followers can think up.

Hopefully some will realize this and seek the Lord.
 

Nondenom40

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That's not hell fire...there is more than one kind of punishment. Otherwise how could Sodom fare better than Capernaum and Bethsaida?

Outer darkness is not hell fire.
When referring to hell, its fire, a lake of fire. Which is forever..

Matt 25:41
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;NASB

2 Thess 1:8-9
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, NASB

If eternal life is eternal. Then eternal destruction is eternal as is the punishment due to rejecting Christ.
 

reformed1689

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So, the O.P. has been answered in full and @John Caldwell has PMd me to say that he is withdrawing from the thread, which is just as well because his arguments have been roundly defeated, I shall also bow out, unless anybody has a further question relating to the O.P.
I received the same message.

What sort of school did John attend??
Don't knock his school, he did not learn his nonsense there. We graduated from the same University.
 

Nondenom40

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It isn't just Jesus Christ who takes on the sins of the world...so do His followers. They are hated for His name's sake. And in this is a great reward. Hated in this life...beloved in heaven.

Jesus purchased the world back from the devil in order to give us choices. To turn from evil and do what is right...AND the higher option of forsaking our lives and following Him.

It was the devil that put Jesus to death on the cross. Had he understood the ways of God...he would not have slain the Lord of glory.

1 Cor. 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

It seems that people have a great difficulty in discerning the difference between God and the devil...between the will of men and the will of God. Putting Jesus to death was the strategy of Satan and his followers. God's ways as so far above what the devil and his followers can think up.

Hopefully some will realize this and seek the Lord.
Jesus purchased the world back from the devil? Gotta verse for that? The world doesn't belong to the devil, it belongs to God who created it. Jesus' death was not some strategy of the devil, its was Gods plan of redemption for the world. The last thing the devil wanted was to put Jesus to death. No death, no resurrection. This is bible 101.
 

John Caldwell

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When referring to hell, its fire, a lake of fire. Which is forever..

Matt 25:41
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;NASB

2 Thess 1:8-9
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, NASB

If eternal life is eternal. Then eternal destruction is eternal as is the punishment due to rejecting Christ.
I wonder how symbolic the language may be.

When asked Tim Keller once assured someone that Hell was not a literal lake of fire but then explained he believed it was the language symbolic for something far worse.
 
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John Caldwell

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I think it's time to summarize the debate on this thread. In the O.P. @John Caldwell discussed the meaning(s) of the Hebrew word Musar, translated chastisement in Isaiah 53:5. He wrote:

However, I was able to point to two instances of musar where "punishment" is certainly the most appropriate translation, proving that 'punishment' is certainly within its semantic range. John did not see fit to discuss either instance.

Next, @David Taylor informed John that several lexicons and/or dictionaries gave 'punishment' as a possible meaning of musar.
@John Caldwell challenged him to list them (post #22) and in post #47, resorted to mocking:
However, when David, n post #59, produced several quotations from lexicons in support of his post#20, there was no apology from @John Caldwell, merely a change of tack (post #64). He now asked for reasons to see 'punishment' in Isaiah 53:5. I had already answered that; the reason is context. Isaiah 53:5 is in the midst of words that speak of punishment: 'stricken,' 'smitten,' 'afflicted,' 'wounded,' 'bruised,' 'stripes,' oppressed,' ' cut off.' To translate musar as 'instruction' or teaching' flies in the face of the context.

Finally, John suggests that 'stricken,' 'smitten,' 'afflicted,' 'wounded,' 'bruised,' 'stripes,' oppressed,' ' cut off' do not suggest punishment. So what do they suggest? Teaching? What sort of school did John attend?? However, I went on to show (posts #82 & 97) that such well-known authorities as Motyer and Delitzsch say that 'for,' as in 'He was pierced for our transgressions' means that Christ was pierced because of our transgressions, which He had taken upon Himself.

So, the O.P. has been answered in full and @John Caldwell has PMd me to say that he is withdrawing from the thread, which is just as well because his arguments have been roundly defeated, I shall also bow out, unless anybody has a further question relating to the O.P.
Steve,

I never said that I was withdrawing from the thread. I said that I was opting out of discussing the topic with you with the knowledge you would respect that choice.

I did so via PM because I thought that the most appropriate method of communication (as it was not technically about the subject of the OP).

Like I said, I trust that you and David are nice people. But I believe that your theories would get in the way of any meaningful dialogue as evidenced by this (and a few other) threads.

When asked how you get from Scripture to your theory you only provide verses and say your theory is correct. That is not what I have been asking. The proof is on this thread.

I never said that מוּסָר cannot mean “punishment”. I never said that no lexicons offer that possibility. This was dishonest misdirection on your part (a smoke screen). What I said was that the word is used 50 times in the Old Testament. Twice it refers to punishment. 30 times it refers to instruction. It also refers to discipline.

I said that if we use the word to mean “punishment” then we need to explain why just as I explained why I believe the word refers to “chastening”. I explained my reasoning (that I believe this to be referring to the same thing as Christ "learning obedience" and being perfected from the things He suffered - a notion you have rejected but was never able to offer a reason).

I agree that Christ was pierced for our transgressions. I do not agree that this means that God pierced Jesus instead of piercing us in order to pay our sin debt.

I am saying that “stricken”, “smitten”, “afflicted”, “wounded”, “bruised”, “stripes” etc do not state that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us. I gave you the reasons why I do not believe these things are divine punishment inflicted on Christ (I pointed to New Testament verses concerning the work of Christ). The problem is you have proved inept at defending your own view. You just say that I am wrong and the words themselves mean what you want them to mean. That is not defending your position.

As I told you in the PM, until you are able to recognize and defend how you get from point A to point B any discussion about that is obsolete. I cannot wring out of you what is not there.

Insofar as my education, I attended Montgomery College, Troy State University, Liberty University and Liberty Theological Seminary. I studied psychology at Montgomery College, literature at Troy State, earned a Bachelor of Religion from Liberty University and a M.A.T.S. from the seminary. @David Taylor attended the same seminary (I thought he would have taken the same hermeneutic classes, but apparently they have changed over time as what I was taught seemed foreign to him).

I am not very familiar with the UK. What seminary did you attend?
 

reformed1689

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@David Taylor attended the same seminary (I thought he would have taken the same hermeneutic classes, but apparently they have changed over time as what I was taught seemed foreign to him).
No the same class is taught using "Grasping God's Word" as the main text. However, I think you stray from that and come up with your own ideas.