Kolasis - William Barclay

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,511
3,841
113
68
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
- Is the wrath of God timoria or kolasis?

- What is aionios kolasis?

- How is aionios used in the Old Testament?

- What was the original meaning of kolasis?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kolasis - William Barclay

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.

“The word aionios is difficult to translate. It is used in the Old Testament* to describe Israel’s possession of the holy land (Genesis 17.8; 48.4); Aaron’s priesthood (Numbers 25,13); regulations about blood in the sacrifices and about the day of atonement (Leviticus 3.17; 16.34); great mountains and hills (Habakkuk 3.6). Now aion literally means an age, and aionios is literally age-long. In all the cases we have quoted the translation is everlasting or for ever, but in every case the thing described is a human thing, and will sometime come to an end. In every case aionios means lasting for a very long time; it can even mean lasting as long as the present world lasts; but it does not mean lasting for ever and ever throughout eternity.

“The Greek usage of aionios is even more suggestive. Plato in the Laws (10.12) says that body and soul are indestructible (anolethron), but they are not eternal (aionios) like the gods. In the Timaeus he says that time as we know it in this world is formed on the model of the nature which is aionios, eternal. The fact is that in Greek aionios can properly only describe that which is divine; in the true sense of the term only God is aionios. Aionios kolasis is therefore the disciplinary punishment, designed for the cure of men, which may last throughout many ages, and which only God can give.

“I can therefore be seen that the phrase in Matthew 25.46 does not commit us to a doctrine of eternal punishment in the sense in which it is usually taken. It may well describe a disciplinary, curative punishment, and it certainly describes the punishment which only God can inflict.”

~William Barclay, The Apostle's Creed, pg 189-190

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Matthew 25:46 KJV
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 25:46 NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

/ @Hillsage @Chadrho @Lizbeth @quietthinker @Lambano @Episkopos @Cyd @Gabriel _Arch @amigo de christo @Bob Estey @laBonhomme @GeneZ @JBO @Wick Stick
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,511
3,841
113
68
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)


/
 

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
6,393
9,188
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have heard that concern before.
None of the forms are defined as eternal.
I think that's the point.

/
Take a look at how the adjective form is used, especially when that adjective modifies "life" or "God". (For that matter, the noun form is used to describe God in the doxology of 1 Timothy 1:17.) That just begs the question, what Koine Greek word IS appropriate for describing God's eternality and things everlasting?

That why I would stay away from that argument.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,511
3,841
113
68
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Take a look at how the adjective form is used, especially when that adjective modifies "life" or "God". (For that matter, the noun form is used to describe God in the doxology of 1 Timothy 1:17.) That just begs the question, what Koine Greek word IS appropriate for describing God's eternality and things everlasting?

That why I would stay away from that argument.
The word "age" doesn't negate eternity. Each age follows the previous one.

/
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,705
3,774
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
- Is the wrath of God timoria or kolasis?

- What is aionios kolasis?

- How is aionios used in the Old Testament?

- What was the original meaning of kolasis?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kolasis - William Barclay

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.

“The word aionios is difficult to translate. It is used in the Old Testament* to describe Israel’s possession of the holy land (Genesis 17.8; 48.4); Aaron’s priesthood (Numbers 25,13); regulations about blood in the sacrifices and about the day of atonement (Leviticus 3.17; 16.34); great mountains and hills (Habakkuk 3.6). Now aion literally means an age, and aionios is literally age-long. In all the cases we have quoted the translation is everlasting or for ever, but in every case the thing described is a human thing, and will sometime come to an end. In every case aionios means lasting for a very long time; it can even mean lasting as long as the present world lasts; but it does not mean lasting for ever and ever throughout eternity.

“The Greek usage of aionios is even more suggestive. Plato in the Laws (10.12) says that body and soul are indestructible (anolethron), but they are not eternal (aionios) like the gods. In the Timaeus he says that time as we know it in this world is formed on the model of the nature which is aionios, eternal. The fact is that in Greek aionios can properly only describe that which is divine; in the true sense of the term only God is aionios. Aionios kolasis is therefore the disciplinary punishment, designed for the cure of men, which may last throughout many ages, and which only God can give.

“I can therefore be seen that the phrase in Matthew 25.46 does not commit us to a doctrine of eternal punishment in the sense in which it is usually taken. It may well describe a disciplinary, curative punishment, and it certainly describes the punishment which only God can inflict.”

~William Barclay, The Apostle's Creed, pg 189-190

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Matthew 25:46 KJV
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 25:46 NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

/ @Hillsage @Chadrho @Lizbeth @quietthinker @Lambano @Episkopos @Cyd @Gabriel _Arch @amigo de christo @Bob Estey @laBonhomme @GeneZ @JBO @Wick Stick
Well you gave yourself the definition by Matt. 25:46 ! If eternal life is not forever and ever then eternal punishment is not either. so then you are faced with ponly an undefined period of being in heaven and then.....? As well as an undefined tiume in the lake of fire and then....?
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,511
3,841
113
68
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well you gave yourself the definition by Matt. 25:46 ! If eternal life is not forever and ever then eternal punishment is not either. so then you are faced with ponly an undefined period of being in heaven and then.....? As well as an undefined tiume in the lake of fire and then....?
That's actually a good observation/concern.
One age follows the previous one. Eternity is made up of many ages. We are currently in an age. Another will follow.
The good news is that the age of correction will not last forever.

/
 

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
3,766
1,009
113
67
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
- Is the wrath of God timoria or kolasis?

- What is aionios kolasis?

- How is aionios used in the Old Testament?

- What was the original meaning of kolasis?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kolasis - William Barclay

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees. In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it. Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E). Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil. Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14). The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.

“The word aionios is difficult to translate. It is used in the Old Testament* to describe Israel’s possession of the holy land (Genesis 17.8; 48.4); Aaron’s priesthood (Numbers 25,13); regulations about blood in the sacrifices and about the day of atonement (Leviticus 3.17; 16.34); great mountains and hills (Habakkuk 3.6). Now aion literally means an age, and aionios is literally age-long. In all the cases we have quoted the translation is everlasting or for ever, but in every case the thing described is a human thing, and will sometime come to an end. In every case aionios means lasting for a very long time; it can even mean lasting as long as the present world lasts; but it does not mean lasting for ever and ever throughout eternity.

“The Greek usage of aionios is even more suggestive. Plato in the Laws (10.12) says that body and soul are indestructible (anolethron), but they are not eternal (aionios) like the gods. In the Timaeus he says that time as we know it in this world is formed on the model of the nature which is aionios, eternal. The fact is that in Greek aionios can properly only describe that which is divine; in the true sense of the term only God is aionios. Aionios kolasis is therefore the disciplinary punishment, designed for the cure of men, which may last throughout many ages, and which only God can give.

“I can therefore be seen that the phrase in Matthew 25.46 does not commit us to a doctrine of eternal punishment in the sense in which it is usually taken. It may well describe a disciplinary, curative punishment, and it certainly describes the punishment which only God can inflict.”

~William Barclay, The Apostle's Creed, pg 189-190

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Matthew 25:46 KJV
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 25:46 NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

/ @Hillsage @Chadrho @Lizbeth @quietthinker @Lambano @Episkopos @Cyd @Gabriel _Arch @amigo de christo @Bob Estey @laBonhomme @GeneZ @JBO @Wick Stick
Oh, that is what those words mean.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

The Learner

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2022
3,766
1,009
113
67
Brighton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)


/
That is just a word study fallacy.

google word study fallacy

wife is kickign me off
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,511
3,841
113
68
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is just a word study fallacy.
Are you saying that aionios always means eternal?

166. aiónios
Strong's Concordance
aiónios: agelong, eternal
Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending;
partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age,
as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.​



/ cc: @Lambano
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
6,393
9,188
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Are you saying that aionios always means eternal?
The Learner's links have some good information about the "semantic range" of words.

Have you ever tried arguing with a Catholic brother or sister about the interpretation of Matthew 1:25? The word "until" has a semantic range, which strictly speaking says nothing about events that happen after the terminus of the "until" condition. (Those of us old enough to have programmed in FORTRAN will smile knowingly at that.) But what is IMPLIED by the terminus says volumes.

Anyway, given the semantic range of words, it becomes a mind-reading exercise of trying to understand what the author is trying to convey. Which means looking at context, how the author uses the word in the rest of his/her writings, the author's overall worldview, thinking of other ways what was said could've been said...
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,511
3,841
113
68
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Learner's links have some good information about the "semantic range" of words.

Have you ever tried arguing with a Catholic brother or sister about the interpretation of Matthew 1:25? The word "until" has a semantic range, which strictly speaking says nothing about events that happen after the terminus of the "until" condition. (Those of us old enough to have programmed in FORTRAN will smile knowingly at that.) But what is IMPLIED by the terminus says volumes.

Anyway, given the semantic range of words, it becomes a mind-reading exercise of trying to understand what the author is trying to convey. Which means looking at context, how the author uses the word in the rest of his/her writings, the author's overall worldview, thinking of other ways what was said could've been said...
In my experience, interpretation always leans heaviest on preconception. (doctrinal bias)
I suppose we all do it. "I've never heard that before." closes the door to receptivity.
"Let him who has ears..."

/
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Learner

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
6,393
9,188
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If it adds to the conversation, my understanding is that the Jewish people at the time (and to some extent still do) believed in two ages, the Olam ha-zeh, the world-as-it-is, and the Olam ha-ba, the World to Come. You can see this repeatedly in the Gospels and Acts. Stoic philosophy taught that the ages are cyclical, and each one ends in a Great Conflagration. You can see this reflected in 2 Peter 3:7 and 2 Peter 3:10, sandwiched around the hopeful promise of 2 Peter 3:8-9.
 
Last edited:

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
6,393
9,188
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If it adds to the conversation, my understanding is that the Jewish people at the time (and to some extent still do) believed in two ages, the Olam ha-zeh, the world-as-it-is, and the Olam ha-ba, the World to Come. You can see this repeatedly in the Gospels and Acts. Stoic philosophy taught that the ages are cyclical, and each one ends in a Great Conflagration. You can see this reflected in 2 Peter 3:7 and 2 Peter 3:10, sandwiched around the hopeful promise of 2 Peter 3:8-9.
Unfortunately, since the Age to Come never ends in Jewish thought, age-punishment in the aion-to-come doesn't buy you anything. It might in Stoic philosophy. In any case, if you're touching a hot stove, any period of time longer than the time it takes to snatch your hand away will seem like eternity anyway.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,511
3,841
113
68
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In any case, if you're touching a hot stove, any period of time longer than the time it takes to snatch your hand away will seem like eternity anyway.
Exactly.
I have contended for some time that hell does not have to be eternal to get the message.
Ten seconds would cure anyone. Rinse and repeat as needed. - LOL

Anything beyond that is so sadistic that I can't fathom why anyone would
lay that at God's door step. (as the saying goes)

/
 

FaithWillDo

Active Member
Mar 1, 2023
888
148
43
63
Fort Collins, CO, USA
www.greatmysteryofchrist.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Take a look at how the adjective form is used, especially when that adjective modifies "life" or "God". (For that matter, the noun form is used to describe God in the doxology of 1 Timothy 1:17.) That just begs the question, what Koine Greek word IS appropriate for describing God's eternality and things everlasting?

That why I would stay away from that argument.
Dear Lambano,
To answer your question above, there is no singular Greek word that means "eternal". Look at the verse you mentioned:

1Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal (aion), immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The verse should be translated as "Now unto the King of the ages, immortal..."

Christ is the King of the ages. He is not an eternal King. But Christ does live forever and that is why Paul also described Him as being "immortal".

The scripture below gives us a clearer understanding concerning how long Christ's reign as king continues and it does so without making use of the Greek word in question (aion):

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

After Christ completes the mission His Father gave Him (1John 4:14), Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven (now containing all mankind) to the Father and Christ's reign as king will come to an end. God the Father will then be "all in all".

In the spiritual language of Christ, the "ends of the ages" come upon a person when they are converted into a child of God (from a child of the Devil).

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

After the last person is converted in the final age, the literal end of the ages will arrive. At that time, Christ's reign will also end because His work is finished.

This verse also mentions Christ's reign using "aion", but it, too (like 1Tim 1:17), is improperly translated:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever (aion aion).

So is Paul mistaken in 1Cor 15:24-25 when he says that Christ's reign will come to an end? Or is John mistaken in Rev 11:15 when he says that Christ's reign will never end? Both cannot be true. To resolve this issue, we must look at the translation of "aion aion".

When "aion aion" is translated as "ages of the ages", both Paul and John are in agreement:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for the ages of the ages.

To translate "aion aion" as meaning "for ever and ever" makes no sense. And for that matter, what does "for ever and ever" mean anyway? Since "for ever" means limitless time, what reason is there to add another "ever" on the end of it?

"Aion" never means "for ever" or "eternal". It means an age of time which has an end. Also, its adjective form (aionios) means "age enduring" and it, too, has an end.

The improper translation of "aion" occurs in most bibles because most translators believe in an eternal hell. Because they do, they were compelled to create an alternate translation for the word "aion" to support this false doctrine. But even with that change of definition, the contradiction still occurs with other verses in scripture.

Here are just a few:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous (in other words, all who died in Adam will be made alive in Christ, 1Cor 15:22).

Joe
 
Last edited:

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,705
3,774
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That's actually a good observation/concern.
One age follows the previous one. Eternity is made up of many ages. We are currently in an age. Another will follow.
The good news is that the age of correction will not last forever.

/
If the age of correction (you say is hell) does not last forever, then neither does the age of heaven. They are constructed the same and must mean the same. You can't have one mean temporary anmd one mean forever-it is not how it is written.
 
  • Love
Reactions: The Learner