The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

Enow said:

Between the CC and me? Let me ask you this. How would you be able to tell? When you go by indwelling Holy Spirit as to who is right as oppose to going by the CC to tell you who is right. So going by the CC to tell you who is right is not going by the scripture telling you it is the Holy Spirit that tells you who is right.

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I don't think you answered my question. You obviously don't believe the CC interprets the Bible infallibly, so who does?

user said:

Here are a few scriptures as it pertains to "not knowing Mary UNTILL Jesus was born"...

Acts 23:12 And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till(G2193) they had killed Paul.

1 Corinthians 16:8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until(G2193) Pentecost.

John 9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until(G2193) they called the parents of him that had received his sight.

Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till(G2193) she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

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All you did was prove MY point that "until" does NOT always indicate a subsequent chain of events.

Thank you . . .

RogerDC said:

I'm not aware of any Scripture that says every doctrine must be tested by Scripture or that Scripture provides everything we need to know.

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2 Tim 3: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

it says right here all scripture is given to

1. reproof, or correct us when we have false thinking
2. Doctrine, all truth is given in scripture
3. Correction, or to restore to right thinking and to bring us to obedience
4 instruction in righteousness. Self explanatory I hope

why?

so the man of God may be complete.

and so he may be thoroughly equipped in the ways of righteousness

now that Catholic Church wants us to think this is not true. That only certain men are authorized or gifted to properly interpret scripture and we should listen to them, even when what they say comes outside the rhelm of scripture, as if they to are inspired. Well this passage shows us that is not only not needed, but not true. The Bible le is capable of doing all God wants us to do.

user said:

Here are a few scriptures as it pertains to "not knowing Mary UNTILL Jesus was born"...

Acts 23:12 And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till(G2193) they had killed Paul.

1 Corinthians 16:8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until(G2193) Pentecost.

John 9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until(G2193) they called the parents of him that had received his sight.

Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till(G2193) she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

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I am done with him

not worth it

he gives his churches view.

he thinks if we do not agree with him we are wrong, remember the Catholic Church is the only true interpretor of,scripture, to,deny them is to deny God

RogerDC said:

I don't think you answered my question. You obviously don't believe the CC interprets the Bible infallibly, so who does?

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The Holy Spirit in believers can, including you if you stop listening to the CC.

BreadOfLife said:

All you did was prove MY point that "until" does NOT always indicate a subsequent chain of events.

Thank you . . .

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Actually I believe you know very well what YOU used it for - and I used the very same Strong's number to prove Mary DID have children after Jesus was born. This is exactly what EVERYONE is telling you about yourself - that you are a deceiver, and at any cost you will attempt to prove your church is the only true church. You have failed to see that your behavior is showing your devil.

In the end, your Great Whore is destroyed by God remembering her sins, and all the labor you have put into it is destroyed as well.

BreadOfLife said:

And why do you keep insisting on posting this asinine manure without ANY proof whatsoever??

As for priests being "pedophiles, adulterers and fornicators" - there has been a very small percentage that have done these things.
However, let's see how the Protestant ministers are dong . . .

Evangelical Sex Abuse Record ‘Worse’ Than Catholic, Says Billy Graham’s Grandson

Protestant Churches Grapple With Growing Sexual Abuse Crisis : NPR

Protestants can no longer dismiss abuse as a ‘Catholic problem’

Child Sex Abuse More Prevalent Among Protestants Than Among Catholics

There Is More Sexual Abuse In The Protestant Churches Than Catholic

Catholic priests no guiltier of sex abuse than other clergy

Data Shed Light on Child Sexual Abuse by Protestant Clergy


So, clean up the mess in your OWN back yard before you go around pointing fingers . . .

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During debates with my father, as soon as we started raising our voices to him and started shouting, he said that we had lost the debate because our arguments had become very weak!

The fact that you feel that you have to flame me to make your point, along with your large text, shows the weakness of your position. I got my information from direct quotes from Vatican insiders, and successive popes through church history. Basically everything I have said is what the Roman Catholic hierarchy have said about themselves, and statements about their own policies!

So, how are you going to answer why there are more male and female prostitutes in the Vatican than anywhere else, especially when the majority of those working in the Vatican are ordained priests?

user said:

Actually I believe you know very well what YOU used it for - and I used the very same Strong's number to prove Mary DID have children after Jesus was born. This is exactly what EVERYONE is telling you about yourself - that you are a deceiver, and at any cost you will attempt to prove your church is the only true church. You have failed to see that your behavior is showing your devil.

In the end, your Great Whore is destroyed by God remembering her sins, and all the labor you have put into it is destroyed as well.

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Desperate words from a person who has just been Scripturally-SPANKED.

All I did was show you three Bible verses - and it offended you . . .

Paul Christensen said:

During debates with my father, as soon as we started raising our voices to him and started shouting, he said that we had lost the debate because our arguments had become very weak!

The fact that you feel that you have to flame me to make your point, along with your large text, shows the weakness of your position. I got my information from direct quotes from Vatican insiders, and successive popes through church history. Basically everything I have said is what the Roman Catholic hierarchy have said about themselves, and statements about their own policies!

So, how are you going to answer why there are more male and female prostitutes in the Vatican than anywhere else, especially when the majority of those working in the Vatican are ordained priests?

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And MY Mama always told me that whenever you have to LIE to make your point - you'e LOST the argument

Here is YOUR lie from back in post #2523:
"...the established fact that there are more male and female prostitutes in the Vatican than in any other red light district anywhere else in the world?"

All I did was give you some harsh facts about the sexual nonsense going on your own Protestant sects.
The truth hurts, doesn't it . . .

Paul Christensen said:

During debates with my father, as soon as we started raising our voices to him and started shouting, he said that we had lost the debate because our arguments had become very weak!

The fact that you feel that you have to flame me to make your point, along with your large text, shows the weakness of your position. I got my information from direct quotes from Vatican insiders, and successive popes through church history. Basically everything I have said is what the Roman Catholic hierarchy have said about themselves, and statements about their own policies!

So, how are you going to answer why there are more male and female prostitutes in the Vatican than anywhere else, especially when the majority of those working in the Vatican are ordained priests?

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He will deny it to the last because he has a devil.

RogerDC said:

Please explain what these verses mean:

"a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24);

"faith without works is dead" (James 2:26).

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James is right, and he uses the examples of Abraham and Rahab. But these are deeds that show their faith in God. It is not enough to say we have faith unless we show that we have faith by what we do.

But this is not following Mosaic or moral rules to try and be acceptable to God, or to comply with false Catholic doctrine dreamed up by successive popes to try and ingratiate ourselves with God. This is what Paul is talking about.

But James is saying that if we say we have faith in Christ, then we need to show it by getting to know the Bible, praying, fellowshipping with other Christians, conducting ourselves according to love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, and self control; and turning away from the works of the flesh. We do these things not to get right with God, but to show that we are right with God through our faith in Christ.

If a person says they have faith, and never pray, read the Bible, fellowship with other believers, and persist in the works of the flesh as a lifestyle, then they cannot prove that there has been a genuine transformation in their hearts toward God.

So, we go through the narrow gate through faith alone in Christ first, and then we show by our conduct that we have indeed come through the narrow gate and not just over the religious wall.

RogerDC said:

And all the good and holy priests count for nothing?Hilarious. Are you really that gullible?

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That's what the Vatican insiders are actually saying and they are pushing for reform. Why do you think Pope John Paul I was murdered? I didn't say that - I am repeating what faithful Roman Catholic Vatican insiders are also saying!

If you want me to continue responding to you, refrain from flaming me. Weakens your position.

RogerDC said:

Why did Paul consult the CHURCH to settle doctrinal matters (Acts 15:2-3) and to verify the correctness of his preaching (Galatians 2:2)?

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There is no reference to him consulting the church. In Acts 15, he did not go to get approval from the Apostles. He went to stop the false Judaist apostles from corrupting the Gentile churches with their false gospel. He said that he did not get his gospel through flesh and blood, but by direct revelation from Jesus Christ Himself. So there was no need for him to get approval from a group of men. He went there to present his true gospel as he presented it to the Gentiles, and they acknowledged and recognised him as the Apostle to the Gentiles. It was for the reason of unity, and not approval that he went to Jerusalem.

That's what he also said in Galatians 2:2. He went to proclaim his gospel to the Apostles so that he would know that the Apostles were not supporting the false Judaist apostles with the false gospel they were impressing on the Galatian churches. He was not expecting or asking for approval from the Apostles concerning the gospel he was preaching.

It is important not to read stuff into the text that isn't there to twist what is said to support one particular opinion.

Paul Christensen said:

There is no reference to him consulting the church. In Acts 15, he did not go to get approval from the Apostles. He went to stop the false Judaist apostles from corrupting the Gentile churches with their false gospel. He said that he did not get his gospel through flesh and blood, but by direct revelation from Jesus Christ Himself. So there was no need for him to get approval from a group of men. He went there to present his true gospel as he presented it to the Gentiles, and they acknowledged and recognised him as the Apostle to the Gentiles. It was for the reason of unity, and not approval that he went to Jerusalem.

That's what he also said in Galatians 2:2. He went to proclaim his gospel to the Apostles so that he would know that the Apostles were not supporting the false Judaist apostles with the false gospel they were impressing on the Galatian churches. He was not expecting or asking for approval from the Apostles concerning the gospel he was preaching.

It is important not to read stuff into the text that isn't there to twist what is said to support one particular opinion.

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WRONG.

Acts 15:1-3
Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers,a “Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice,b you cannot be saved.” Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question. They were sent on their journey by the church, and passed through Phoenicia and Samaria telling of the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.

Then - AFTER Peter and James made their speeches on the matter and rendered their judgments - we read in verse 22:
Acts 15:22
Then the apostles and presbyters, in agreement with the whole church, decided to choose representatives and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. The ones chosen were Judas, who was called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers.

They ABSOLUTELY went to Jerusalem to get a judgment on the matter from the Apostles.

BreadOfLife said:

Your ignorance never fails to amaze

Ummmmm, MY Bible is Scripture.
The Pope didn't write the Bible, Einstein.

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No, your Pope debunks what used to be the Bible to the Catholic.
His word is God speaking to the Catholic.
You think he speaks infallible words of God always.
He is your God on earth, so kiss his ring.

RogerDC said:

I'm talking about true repentance, not fake repentance for the sake of appearances.The Scriptures you quote state that no one is saved by works ALONE - none of them state that works are irrelevant to salvation. You've obviously misinterpreted them.

How did you manage to get it so wrong - read your Bible - James 2:24-26 (for starters) clearly preaches being justified by works - "a man is JUSTIFIED by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE", and that works are necessary for salvation - "faith without WORKS is DEAD".

You preach dead faith.​

You've demonstrated that you don't understand "the clear, reliable text of the Bible".

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As I pointed out in another thread - James speaks about the actions we take to show that we have faith, not religious works or compliance with Mosaic or moral Law in order to be accepted by God. Being religious and moral does not save me. Faith along in Christ saves me. It is the unmerited, unearned gift of God. But I start doing things that show that I have faith in Christ and that I am genuinely converted. If I didn't start praying, reading the Bible, fellowshipping with other believers and turning away from the works of the flesh, how can I prove that I am genuinely converted to Christ and have had my heart transformed?

Saying that we have to do certain religious or moral actions along with faith in order to be saved is like putting the cart before the horse. Appropriate actions follow saving faith, not combined with it.

Therefore Paul says that faith combined with works does not justify or save an unbeliever; and James says that appropriate actions follow and demonstrate faith in Christ. So Paul and James are referring to works in totally different ways.

BreadOfLife said:

And MY Mama always told me that whenever you have to LIE to make your point - you'e LOST the argument

Here is YOUR lie from back in post #2523:
"...the established fact that there are more male and female prostitutes in the Vatican than in any other red light district anywhere else in the world?"

All I did was give you some harsh facts about the sexual nonsense going on your own Protestant sects.
The truth hurts, doesn't it . . .

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I warned you about flaming me. Final warming before I block you.

user said:

He will deny it to the last because he has a devil.

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I will block him if he flames me again.

Paul Christensen said:

I warned you about flaming me. Final warming before I block you.

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I reported him for his attack earlier

Eternally Grateful said:

I reported him for his attack earlier

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It is one thing to have a spirited, lively debate about the issues and to give each other a definite run for our money, and it is quite another to rubbish and abuse each other because we have differing opinions.

I have very definite opposing views about the Roman Catholic church which is think is the greatest and most destructive fraud in the whole of Christian history, and I am not backward in coming forward to say it; but I would never personally abuse a Roman Catholic believer, because I give every professing Christian the benefit of the doubt. My wife was brought up and educated Catholic, so I would never say to her what I might say on this forum out of respect for her!

Although when she views her favourite soap opera and some bad guy says something untruthful, and she exclaims: "You lying b**$#%!!! I say, "St Pius wouldn't like that!" And she asks, "Are you making fun of my religion?" and I answer, "Yep!" She looks at me with that old-fashioned look and carries on watching.