The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

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Eternally Grateful

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It is one thing to have a spirited, lively debate about the issues and to give each other a definite run for our money, and it is quite another to rubbish and abuse each other because we have differing opinions.

I have very definite opposing views about the Roman Catholic church which is think is the greatest and most destructive fraud in the whole of Christian history, and I am not backward in coming forward to say it; but I would never personally abuse a Roman Catholic believer, because I give every professing Christian the benefit of the doubt. My wife was brought up and educated Catholic, so I would never say to her what I might say on this forum out of respect for her!

Although when she views her favourite soap opera and some bad guy says something untruthful, and she exclaims: "You lying b**$#%!!! I say, "St Pius wouldn't like that!" And she asks, "Are you making fun of my religion?" and I answer, "Yep!" She looks at me with that old-fashioned look and carries on watching.
I hear ya

a good debate is useful, it helps us learn about others, helps us see maybe some error in our own thinking, or strengthens our own faith as we see deeper some things we did not know before that strengthens us

but the attacks that person was making was uncalled for. If any of us get there, and I am sure we all have gotten angry every now and then, someone should call us out, if we refuse to see how we are acting, we’ll then further action needs taken,
 
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Paul Christensen

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I hear ya

a good debate is useful, it helps us learn about others, helps us see maybe some error in our own thinking, or strengthens our own faith as we see deeper some things we did not know before that strengthens us

but the attacks that person was making was uncalled for. If any of us get there, and I am sure we all have gotten angry every now and then, someone should call us out, if we refuse to see how we are acting, we’ll then further action needs taken,
I think that any personal "you" statements directed at us that make us feel defensive, is on the level of "flaming" and "goading", and a type of abuse, even it is never so mild. We have the right to express our opinions and be proved wrong if need be by Scripture or just plain common logic, but no one has the right to throw abuse at us for expressing our opinions.

Since I joined this forum, I have noticed that some have expressed concern about the frequency of attacks and flaming that have go on here. When I saw that, I determined that I would do what I could to oppose flaming and abuse and use my contribution to show what a good debate looks like without having to resort to personal attacks on those who see different to what I do.

I don't know everything. I just have partial knowledge as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13. "We know in part and prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect is come, the part shall be done away and we will know as we are known." (my paraphrase).

Therefore it all depends on how we are mentored and taught during our spiritual formative years in the particular religious environment that we were either brought up in as children or came into when we were first converted to Christ. The doctrine that we were taught by those teachers, pastors, and priests, whom we most respected, is doctrine that is very difficult to doubt, unless the Holy Spirit gives us new insight into God's Word to alter our theology to suit what we have learned anew.

For example: I spent the first 12 years of my Christian walk in Pentecostal churches. As a result I fully accepted its theology and practice and zealously defended it for the next 50 years. Then I read a book by a particular author showing where the Charismatic movement departed from the New Testament, and viewed a Bible teacher on Youtube who showed conclusively the areas of mainstream Charistmatic that were involved in pagan mind-control ("positive confession"), false prosperity and guaranteed-healing teaching and occult kundalini manifestation in services. As a result, this turned a lot of my Pentecostal/Charismatic theology on its head, and I had to re-examine what I previously practiced and supported, and found that much of it was missing from the New Testament. That was not altogether pleasant but it was necessary for me to adopt the attitude that if it ain't in the New Testament then it ain't true. Then the sayings of Jesus and Paul about false prophets, teachers, signs and wonders, began to have new significance for me.

But a couple of years ago, I would have defended them, like I had for the previous 50 years, to the max and refused to allow myself to believe anything different. It was as if any doubts about my Pentecostal theology were an attack on the foundation of my Christian faith. So I understand when people feel defensive and threatened when counter-arguments are present to what they firmly believe. But that is no excuse for viciously attacking and abusing those who give those counter-arguments.
 
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RogerDC

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I believe the perfection is referring to our future resurrected state. Currently there is no perfect church when even Paul admits he is not perfect yet.
You seem to have digressed. We’re not discussing “our future resurrected state”, but what Eph 1:22-23 means when it says the Church IS the “fullness” of Christ. That passage is not referring to the future, but what the Church is NOW - it doesn’t say the Church “will be” the fullness of Christ - it says the Church “is” the fullness of Christ. In which case, the Church must be more than simply the people who belong to it.
 

RogerDC

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Jesus Christ is the Word of God, not the Church.
Jesus Christ is the Word of God; however, because the Church is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23), the Church is also the Word of God. You cannot separate the Head (Christ) from the body (the Church).
The Church is to be subjected to the Word of God, hence Jesus Christ the Lord. That means the appointed bishops and priests are to follow by example as yielding to the Word of God thus by following their examples, the followers submit to the Word of God, not them.
Exactly. That is what the Catholic Church teaches.
When they go astray, and they have been, followers are required to subject them to the Word of God or excommunicate them if they refuse to repent by saying they can do no wrong.
No Catholic believes he can do no wrong or that the Pope, Bishops and priests are impeccable. The Catholics Church teaches that the faithful - including the Pope, bishops and priests - are all sinners.
You would have support from scripture if they actually addresses one another as father Paul or father Peter or father John, but they did not, not even when referring to one another in letters.
So what? All that means is that the tradition of calling a priest, “Father”, came later in the history of the Church.
For perfecting the believers by the scriptures.
So says you. There is nothing in Eph 4 or 1John 2 that says believers are perfected by the Scriptures alone.
I believe the apostle John was signifying that we can rely on Jesus Christ to be our Good Shepherd thru the Holy Spirit in us where we are not reliant on man to teach us all things true.
I’ve got news for you - you are “reliant on man” to teach you all things true - the Scriptures were all written by man.
 

RogerDC

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Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19 has saints breaks the least of His commandments and teach others are "called" the least in the kingdom of heaven. So from your point of view, how can a Catholic break any of those commandments to be a Catholic and still be called the least in the kingdom of heaven?
The forgiveness of sins.
Jesus Christ is perfect. No one else, let alone a church is perfect yet to be called the true church.
The one, true Church (on earth) is make up of sinners, so of course they are not going to be perfect. A Church full of imperfect sinners doesn’t prove that that Church is not the one, true Church that was founded by Christ. Every one of the writers of the Bible was an imperfect sinner - does that mean the Bible is not the true and infallible word of God?
Only 2 churches out of 7 in Revelations were without reproof and yet they were not called a true church or true churches. They each had the encouragement to continue to hold fast, which is an indicator that they too can fall away unless they hold fast the traditions taught of us as handed down from the N.T. and not the CC.
The seven Churches all belonged to the one, true Church - the Catholic Church. Individuals who didn’t repent of their sins would have been disciplined or ultimately excommunicated if their sins warranted it.

Incidentally, I couldn’t find any reference to the NT Scriptures in what Jesus says to the seven Churches in the book of Revelation. Perhaps you can point it out to me.
No, Jesus was talking about what Peter had said about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of the living God and it is that the chief cornerstone. Paul agrees. Paul did not refer to Peter being that Rock, but Christ was and is the Rock.
Jesus calls Peter “this rock” (Matt 16:18) because Peter is Jesus’ representative on earth.

Please explain why Jesus changed Simon’s name to “rock” the very first time they met (John 1:42).
To assign the Catholic Church in place of Jesus Christ as the Good Shepherd thru the Holy Spirit in each believer is to allow a thief between you & Him.
The Church is the body and the "fullness" of Christ (Eph 1:22-23). The Church is not assigned "in place" of Jesus Christ - it is part of Jesus Christ, his body. You cannot separate the head from the body.
 

RogerDC

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The "church" doesn't illuminate the scripture (that's God's job).
It certainly is God’s job, but for the sake of unity, clarity and salvation, he does it through his one, true Church (ie, the Catholic Church):

“There is one body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ … And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive” (Eph 4:4-14).
 

RogerDC

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Right, because what Peter had said did not really come from himself, but from the Father thru him so Jesus was not really giving Peter the credit for saying that as Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God as Christ is that Rock that the gates of hell shall not prevail against and Jesus had proven that when He had risen from the dead taking the keys to the gates of hell with Him.

Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
When Jesus said, “the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt 16:18), he was clearly referring to the Church - to claim otherwise is just plain stupidity. Sorry, but your credibility as a intelligent reader of Scripture has just flown right out the window.
Jesus had proven that when He had risen from the dead taking the keys to the gates of hell with Him.
Oh, so Jesus gave Peter the “keys of Heaven” (Matt 16:19), but took them back again when he ascended to Heaven. That doesn’t make any sense.

Jesus has the “keys”, and Peter also has the “keys”, because the Church is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) and Peter is Christ’s representative on earth. The power and authority of the “keys” comes from Christ, but that power and authority is exercised supernaturally on earth through Peter and his successors (ie, the Catholic Popes).
 

RogerDC

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The written Scriptures are God's sole communication with mankind.
Really? Says who?
I suspect once upon a time, someone sold you the “Sola Scriptura” fallacy and you bought it without ever questioning if it is true or not.

The Scriptures are only one way God communicates with mankind and that God’s official means of communicating with mankind is through the his Church - ie, the Catholic Church.
Anything written outside of the Bible is the uninspired authorship of man.
Incorrect. The Catholic Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15) and is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) - therefore every doctrine taught by the Catholic Church is the infallible word of God and is as valid and inspired as anything written in the Bible.

Did you know that the NT that you base your faith on is a Catholic document? By accepting the NT as the inspired word of God, you are in effect accepting the Catholic Church as Christ’s authority on earth.
Any doctrine that is contrary to the clear teaching of the Bible is a fraud and a deception.
… except outside the Catholic Church, there is no such thing as a “clear teaching of the Bible” because every non-Catholic believer has a different interpretation of the Bible.
Paul said that even if an angel came and preached a different gospel than the one he preached, let him be cursed. If the Roman Catholic Church is preaching doctrines purporting to be the gospel of Christ and they are not consistent with the gospel that Paul preached then it is presenting a fraudulent gospel.
If the Catholic Church taught a doctrine that contradicts the Bible, I would not be a Catholic.
 

RogerDC

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With no counter information from you, that makes you as found wanting, brother.
I choose not to dignify the unintelligent, misinformed drivel contained in that link with a response.
 

RogerDC

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Exactly - and that's what has happened.

Tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines because they ALL claim their interpretations are correct.
Judging by the disastrous results of Sola Scriptura, Jesus prayed for dis-unity, not unity.
 

Paul Christensen

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Really? Says who?
I suspect once upon a time, someone sold you the “Sola Scriptura” fallacy and you bought it without ever questioning if it is true or not.

The Scriptures are only one way God communicates with mankind and that God’s official means of communicating with mankind is through the his Church - ie, the Catholic Church.Incorrect. The Catholic Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15) and is the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) - therefore every doctrine taught by the Catholic Church is the infallible word of God and is as valid and inspired as anything written in the Bible.

Did you know that the NT that you base your faith on is a Catholic document? By accepting the NT as the inspired word of God, you are in effect accepting the Catholic Church as Christ’s authority on earth.… except outside the Catholic Church, there is no such thing as a “clear teaching of the Bible” because every non-Catholic believer has a different interpretation of the Bible.If the Catholic Church taught a doctrine that contradicts the Bible, I would not be a Catholic.
This idea of "you have your interpretation of the Bible and I have mine" is an old chestnut that people have used to avoid compliance with the direct instructions that are contained in the Bible that are required of us. This means that a person can be a fornicator, adulterer, hater of people, and involved in other works of the flesh, and say that if the Bible says not to participate on those things, it is "just your interpretation and it doesn't have to be mine".

It also gives rise to the dreaming up of "revelation" and doctrine that is found nowhere in the Bible. God says of such people who do it, that they are dreamers and He has not sent them.

The first to use the "your interpretation" excuse was the talking snake in the Garden of Eden when after Eve telling him that God told her and Adam that if they ate the fruit of the tree they would die, the snake said, "That's just your interpretation. God didn't really say you would die, and by eating the fruit you will become like God, knowing good from evil".
 

RogerDC

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I left that false teaching church for bible beleving churches, years ago. To follow biblical teaching it is necessary.
I was raised Catholic, but I gradually fell away from all forms of Christianity after I left school. Many years later I became interesting in Christianity again and believed the best way to learn to be a Christian was to study the Bible - but I was wrong. After becoming disillusioned with the many non-Catholic denominations I joined, the Holy Spirt finally opened my eyes the truth that the Catholic Church is Christ's one, true Church and that by studying and living by her teachings is the best way to be a Christian. Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine that has proven by its fruits to be so.
 

Paul Christensen

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Exactly - and that's what has happened.

Tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines because they ALL claim their interpretations are correct.
Oh? And how do you know that? Just by visiting a couple of churches? Or is that what your priest is teaching you?
 
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Dcopymope

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This idea of "you have your interpretation of the Bible and I have mine" is an old chestnut that people have used to avoid compliance with the direct instructions that are contained in the Bible that are required of us. This means that a person can be a fornicator, adulterer, hater of people, and involved in other works of the flesh, and say that if the Bible says not to participate on those things, it is "just your interpretation and it doesn't have to be mine".

It also gives rise to the dreaming up of "revelation" and doctrine that is found nowhere in the Bible. God says of such people who do it, that they are dreamers and He has not sent them.

The first to use the "your interpretation" excuse was the talking snake in the Garden of Eden when after Eve telling him that God told her and Adam that if they ate the fruit of the tree they would die, the snake said, "That's just your interpretation. God didn't really say you would die, and by eating the fruit you will become like God, knowing good from evil".

I liken such "believers" to 'Comrad Dyatlov' from the HBO series 'Chernobyl'. Scripture gives clear eye witness testimony, or clear instructions are given by God to do this or that, they will claim otherwise. If I say I saw graphite, Mr. Dyatlov says that I didn't. Really, I've quickly lost all patience for such creatures.
 

Paul Christensen

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… and I suppose the JWs' "Bible" is an accurate and trustworthy translation too.
You're scraping the bottom of the barrel there. Every good Bible commentator knows that the team who compiled the JW New World Translation did not have one Hebrew or Greek scholar among them. Nothing new here. Looks like a desperate random shot in the hope it hits something.
 

Paul Christensen

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I was raised Catholic, but I gradually fell away from all forms of Christianity after I left school. Many years later I became interesting in Christianity again and believed the best way to learn to be a Christian was to study the Bible - but I was wrong. After becoming disillusioned with the many non-Catholic denominations I joined, the Holy Spirt finally opened my eyes the truth that the Catholic Church is Christ's one, true Church and that by studying and living by her teachings is the best way to be a Christian. Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine that has proven by its fruits to be so.
Joseph Smith had the same attitude of disillusionment but he formed his own church instead and dreamed up a set of doctrines to support it. Roughly the same as the development of the extra-Biblical doctrines of the Roman Catholic church. The only difference between you and him is that he went to one cult, and you went to another.
 

RogerDC

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he gives his churches view.
The point is not that his view is a Catholic view - the point is whether or not his argument makes sense. Judging an argument on its source, rather than its substance, is not a wise way to approach exegesis.