Election The Chosing Of God

logabe said:

The Birthright includes Authority and Responsibility in equal measures.
It is the Dominion Mandate and the Fruitfulness Mandate. To be "chosen"
(or "elected") means that God gives Authority and with it comes the
responsibility to bring forth the fruits of the Kingdom. This was the main
subject of Jesus' parable in Matt. 21:33-43. God planted a vineyard in
Canaan and then expected Israel to render to Him the fruit of the Kingdom.

The story is complex, because it also involves transfer of authority to other
nations at various times, putting Israel into captivity. Thus, the rise and fall
of nations are explained in terms of God's desire for "fruit," which is the
"fruit of the womb," or the manifestation of the sons of God. This has
always been the divine purpose for the earth, and God will not be satisfied
until this purpose is accomplished in his Chosen ones.

But getting back to the last post...so we can understand how God deals
with the Israelites and with us, so we can learn obedience and qualify for
the 1st Resurrection or as Paul says, " the High Calling".

Israel sinned against God, thus incurring a debt to the law. (All sin is
reckoned as a debt in Scripture.) Israel was unable or unwilling to pay
the debt, so God brought the nation into the Divine Court for judgment.
He found them guilty of idolatry, and because they could not pay, they
were SOLD to slavemasters (in this case, Mesopotamia).

This was according to the law found in Exodus 22:3, "He shall surely
make restitution; if he owns nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

In biblical law, the one who buys a debtor is a redeemer. In other words,
the debtor comes under the authority of the redeemer and must serve
him according to the number of years mandated by the court. In return,
the redeemer is responsible to pay the debt of the debtor.

It is a good trade-off. The debtor does not have to be put to death for
his inability to pay off the debt, while the redeemer can profit from the
labor of his newly-purchased slave. The downside, of course, is that
the debtor loses his freedom, and on the other side, the redeemer
becomes responsible for the debt.

In the case of Israel as a nation, the prophets speak of this situation
in terms of God planting a vineyard in the land of Canaan, and the
people were responsible to bring forth fruit unto God. This is the
parable of the vineyard in Isaiah 5 and again in Matthew 21:33-43.

This parable shows us that God expected Israel to bring forth the
fruits of the Kingdom. However, they failed in this responsibility,
refusing to render to God the fruits of His labor. This became a
"debt" to the law, and under those circumstances God "sold"
Israel to the king of Mesopotamia for eight years.

This "sale" was a merciful act of God, for on a legal level it temporarily
relieved Israel of her responsibility to pay off the debt that was owed.
It gave time for the nation to repent. It gave them a grace period. Their
responsibility to pay the debt was transferred to Babylon for a time,
and if the debt remained unpaid, the Babylonians were held
accountable--not Israel. After all, Israel was only the slave, and by the
law of authority, Babylon was responsible for the debt.

Of course, we know that Babylon cared nothing about the law. From
their perspective, they had conquered Israel by their own power and
might. They seemed unaware that their conquest made them
accountable to God to bring forth the fruits of the Kingdom. They never
dreamed that divine authority came with a divine responsibility.

After eight years, Israel repented and seemed ready to handle the
responsibility to bring forth the fruits of the kingdom. So when time
ran out for the king of Mesopotamia, God brought judgment upon
him and reversed the captivity. Israel was once again set free and
regained the responsibility that came with being "chosen."

Logabe

Click to expand...

Butch5 said:

Where does Scripture teach that sin is a "Debt"?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

logabe said:

Biblical law is based upon the principle that sin is reckoned as a debt. That is
why Jesus' parables about debtors always referred to sinners, such as in Matt.
18:23-35. Likewise, in the Lord's Prayer, Matt. 6:12 says,

12 And forgive us our DEBTS, as we also have forgiven our DEBTORS."

In Luke 11:4, the same prayer is recorded in a little different way:

4 And forgive us our SINS; for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is
INDEBTED to us…

One of the great keys to understanding Scripture is to know that sin is reckoned
as a debt. This is because in biblical law, a sinner owes a debt to his victim that
is directly proportional to the amount of the theft or the destroyed property.

In the case of Jesus' parable in Matt. 21, the vine-growers stole the fruits of the
vineyard. When we compare this with Isaiah 5, it becomes apparent that God
planted a vineyard (the Kingdom) in the land of Canaan during the days of
Joshua. At some point, God expected to receive the fruit of His labor, but the
people refused to render the fruits to Him. In other words, they "stole the fruit"
and assumed control over the vineyard in rebellion against its true Owner.

The book of Judges tells us how God handled this theft. Judges 3:8 says that
God "SOLD THEM into the hands of Chushan-rishathaim, king of Mesopotamia"
for eight years. In other words, they were SOLD FOR THEIR THEFT according
to the law in Exodus 22:3.

When the people repented, God delivered them through Israel's first judge,
Othniel. But after a time, they again refused to render Him the fruits of the
Kingdom, so Judges 4:2 says, "The Lord SOLD THEM" to Jabin, king of
Canaan.” (See also Judges 10:7 for another example of this.)

What is the purpose of selling Israel? It is a legal auction, as it were. Picture
Israel as a thief being taken to the Divine Court, where God is the Judge. Israel
has been caught "red-handed," and is convicted of sin. But since Israel does
not have the resources to pay God the fruits of the kingdom--and certainly
cannot pay double--Israel was "sold" to another nation.

This meant that Israel was to become the servant to that other nation for
a specified amount of time. It also meant, however, that this other nation
was made responsible to pay the debt that Israel owed. This other nation
had, in essence, REDEEMED Israel's debt note.

The mercy factor in this example of divine justice is seen in the fact that
during Israel's time of servitude, they were not held legally responsible
for the debt note for their sin. One cannot bring forth the fruits of the
Kingdom as long as one is "under the law," that is, under the sentence
of the law. Being "under the law" is a time of learning--with the law as
one's "schoolmaster" or "tutor," as Paul puts it in Gal. 3:24.

During this time of judgment, the law did not require them (in a legal
sense) to render to God the fruits of the Kingdom. The law DID REQUIRE
THE OTHER NATION TO PRODUCE THOSE FRUITS. And when they
did not do so, then God held them responsible and brought judgment
upon that other nation.

The book of Judges is the history of the Debt Note. Whoever held this
Debt Note was legally required--"CHOSEN"--to bring forth the fruits of
the Kingdom. The requirement was there, even though it was a
foregone conclusion that those other nations would fail as much as
Israel had failed.

This law, however, provided mercy for Israel, because it gave them
a time to regroup, repent, and learn the ways of God without the
burden of the Debt Note resting upon their shoulders. In this way,
God shifted the responsibility to the other "redeemer" nation for a
time.

The wisdom of God is remarkable. And yet it appears that Israel
never really understood that their captivities in the book of Judges
were evidence of God's mercy and love. This is because they did
not understand the law that had been given to them on Mount Horeb
( Jabal al-lawz in Saudi Arabia, where Paul locates it in Gal. 4:25).

Logabe

Click to expand...

josiahdefender said:

Forgivenwretch:God does not want anyone to perish, so since multitudes do perish, tell me why is God not getting what He wants?Josiahdefender

Click to expand...

Butch5 said:

Where does Scripture teach that sin is a debt?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

logabe said:

I thought I answered that in the last post. I will get specfic
so you can see where I'm coming from. Matt. 6:12,

12 And forgive us our DEBTS, as we also have
forgiven our DEBTORS."

Luke 11:4,

4 And forgive us our SINS; for we ourselves also forgive
everyone who is INDEBTED to us…

Click to expand...

Butch5 said:

Is that all you have? You are building a doctrine based on the use of two different words?



I didn't owe a debt.



Who was this payment made to?

Click to expand...

LogabeDavid was a man after God's own heart and he said in Psalm 51:5,

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother
conceived me.

Sounds like David didn't have a choice...he had debt or sins from
his mother's womb.

Click to expand...

Logabe---Good question.

In short...it was made to the ground. Gen. 3:17-19,

17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the
voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I
commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is
the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days
of your life.
18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you
will eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you
return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For
you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

In other words, Adam sinned, and thus incurred a debt to the law,
because all sin is reckoned as a debt. Because there was no way
that Adam could pay the debt he owed, he was "sold" into bondage
as a slave to the earth (Ex. 22:3), he and his wife and children. And
so the earth (the physical, carnal realm) became his slavemaster,
and man has therefore been ruled by his carnal desires until the
day he dies. Furthermore, throughout his life, Adam and his entire
household had to work by the sweat of their brows to serve the
earth by ridding it of thorns and thistles. The meaning of this is
not limited to the hard work of farming. Each one of us has his
own "earth" to till. It is the process of Sanctification, where we
labor and discipline ourselves to rid our character of its thorns
and thistles.

Note that God cursed the ground for Adam's sake. That is, God
made the earth liable for Adam's sin. This could only be done by
the law of redemption. God sold Adam to the earth. This means
that Adam and his children were required to labor for the earth by
the sweat of their brows; and the earth was required to pay the
debt for Adam's sin. The debt owed was spiritual Perfection and
Righteousness. The earth must produce a Perfect Man and
present him to God to pay the debt for Adam's sin. This is one of
the legal reasons why Jesus had to be born in the earth and why
He was called the Last Adam. The earth finally did produce the
Perfect Man to pay the debt of Adam's sin.[/size]

Click to expand...

Butch5 said:

Read closely, David says he was conceived in sin. It speaks of his mother's sin, not his. There is no mention of David's sin in this passage. Even if there were, it would prove nothing for it speaks of David, not me or anyone else.

Are you serious? Christ's death was a payment to the ground? Can you explain to me how an inanimate object is supposed to produce a perfect man? You also have another problem here, when Adam sinned there was no law. How could Adam's sin be connected with a law that did not exist?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

logabe said:

God's Word is God's Law...Gen.2:16-17,

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of
every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou
shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof
thou shalt surely die.

Thus, Adam broke the Law way back there in the
Garden. Now what does that have to do with us
today.

When Adam sinned in the beginning, he incurred a debt
that he could not pay. He was like the man in Jesus' parable
in Matt. 18, the man who owed a debt of ten thousand talents.
A talent of gold was over a hundred pounds of gold. It was a
hopelessly unpayable debt. Matt. 18:25 then says,

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded
him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had,
and payment to be made.

This is the basic law of slavery through debt. We and all of creation
have been sold into bondage through Adam's sin. It was not only
Adam, the original sinner, who was affected by his sin. Nor was
it limited to that single generation. Like any debtor, his entire
estate was sold in order to cover the payment on his debt. Adam
had been given the earth as his inheritance, and this included his
own body that was made of the dust of the ground. He had authority
over all the animals as well. And so absolutely everything that was
his was sold by law, and still it was not enough to cover the debt
incurred by his sin. And so his wife and children were also sold
into bondage. Hence, all mankind in every generation was sold
into bondage by due process of law. All men are thus born “under
the law,” that is, under the penalty of the law for Adam's sin.

Rom. 5:12 says,

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the
world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all
men, because all sinned—

Hope this has helped a little bit.

Logabe

Click to expand...

Butch5 said:

Hi Logabe,

I understand what you are saying, It is just that I disagree. You keep speaking of a law yet there was no law. You are calling God's command to Adam a the law, I haven't even seen Scripture do this. Also, where does Scripture tell us that Adam "inherited" the earth. He was placed in the Garden to steward the earth I will agree, But ownership? I don't see that taught in Scripture.

Let me ask you a question, Scripture says that Christ bought the church with His own blood. Who did He buy it from?

Click to expand...

jerryjohnson said:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man,

What does the word "Commanded" sound like it means if it isn't a law for Adam. Of course it isn't a law for us, that "Tree" isn't there any more for us to get at. It will be again someday.

The consequence for breaking that Command was death, in the day Adam ate from that tree he died. Man kind is still paying the penalty for the breaking of that LAW by Adam.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

logabe said:

I couldn't have said that any better JJ. That is exactly what I wanted
to say but Butch keeps the pressure on me with them really good
questions. I guess I will try to add a little more to it so as to answer
the " who did he buy it from".

The Hebrew term for sin is khataw, which means “to miss the
mark, or to fail to achieve the goal.” For example, Rom. 3:23 says,

23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

That is, all have fallen short of the target, or the goal. All have
fallen short of the righteous character of God. All have failed.

The purpose of law is to deal with sinners. As long as there are
sinners, there must be laws to restrain men from harming their
neighbors. To enforce tranquility in the land, these laws must
have penalties for disobedience, by which the lawful order may
be restored when men violate the rights of others.

In the beginning, prior to the introduction of sin in the world,
there was no need for laws imposed upon men from higher
powers. But when men began to sin, law became necessary
to deal with that new reality. And in the end, when God is “all
in all,” there will again be no need for laws as such, because
the law of God will be written on the hearts of all men. Men will
do what is right by nature and will not need any coercive
law-enforcement agency to restrain men from doing evil things
to each other.

The laws of God have been revealed progressively as man
has degenerated morally. As I said in the last post... the first
law is given in Gen. 2:16, 17,

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From
any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you
shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it, you shall
surely die.”

No other law was necessary at that time. Yet this one law was
sufficient to provide opportunity for Adam and Eve to fail. Once
they sinned, mankind began a long degeneration, and more
laws needed to be revealed so that men would know the mind
of God in these matters.

After the flood, God revealed to Noah other laws by which to
govern the earth. Noah was the legitimate king of the earth, for
the Birthright from Adam had been passed down to him. Noah
already knew the difference between clean and unclean animals,
because this knowledge was necessary in bringing animals into
the ark before the flood (Gen. 7:2).

After the flood, God revealed more in Gen. 9:1-7. They were not
to eat the blood with the meat (9:4), because blood was not
created to be food for man. And if a man murdered his neighbor,
his life was to be forfeited as well (9:6). No doubt there were many
other attributes of God's righteous character revealed by inspiration
during the centuries to come, for we read in Gen. 26:5 that God
blessed Abraham:

5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My
commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

So it is plain that long before the time of Moses, there were divine
laws by which Abraham lived. Abraham's faith was shown by the
fact that he obeyed when God told him to leave Ur of the Chaldees
and travel to the land of Canaan. Abraham was a man of great faith,
but his faith was evidenced by his obedience.

Four centuries after Abraham, Moses led Israel out of the land
of Egypt and brought them to Mount Sinai, where God gave them
a more complete set of laws for the Kingdom. These laws were
to govern relationships between God and men and between men
and their neighbors. These laws defined absolute justice in that
the judgments were always to fit the crime. Restitution payments
were to be directly proportional to the crime. When restitution was
not possible, the offense constituted the death penalty.

The Apostle Paul made it clear that God had not set aside His law.
Jesus had paid the full penalty of the law for our sin and for the sin
of the whole world. This “fulfilled” the law—that is, it satisfied the
law's demand for justice.

Jesus could have avoided the cross by setting aside the law,
but instead, He upheld the law's demands for justice by dying
on the cross for our sin. In going to the cross, He showed that
He agreed with the law's demand for justice. In paying the
penalty, He saved the world from death. And so, Paul tells us
in Rom. 6:14,

14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under
law, but under grace.

To be “under law” means that one is guilty before the law and
is liable for its penalty as a sinner. Any time a person sins, he
comes under law on account of that sin, and the law will not
release the sinner until the penalty is paid. When Jesus paid
the penalty demanded by the law, the sinner was released, for
the law was satisfied. No longer was the law a threat to the
sinner. He was now “under grace,” not because the sin was
legalized, but because the penalty (or the fine) for the sin was
paid. Hope this gives you a better picture of what God is doing
today.

Logabe

Click to expand...

The Apostle Paul made it clear that God had not set aside His law.

Click to expand...

jerryjohnson said:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man,

What does the word "Commanded" sound like it means if it isn't a law for Adam. Of course it isn't a law for us, that "Tree" isn't there any more for us to get at. It will be again someday.

The consequence for breaking that Command was death, in the day Adam ate from that tree he died. Man kind is still paying the penalty for the breaking of that LAW by Adam.

Click to expand...

Butch5 said:

My point is not about a command, The argument that Logabe is using is concerning "The Law". "The Law" did not exist until it was given to Moses. It is "The Law" that is the standard that the Jews were judged by. Consider Paul 's words.


Romans 5:12-14 ( KJV )
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Death reigned even when there was no Law. As Paul says, the wages of sin is death, they did because of sin even when "The Law" had not yet come.

Click to expand...

jerryjohnson said:

The law did exist for Adam ("the man, and his wife, he did not have children yet") when God gave him the command, "And the LORD God commanded the man." Also, can't remember where it says it, but somewhere we are told about the "law written on our heart." I believe Adam and Eve knew some of right from wrong after they had sinned in the garden. Why would they have hide themselves?

Cain seemed to know it was wrong for him to have killed his brother. Both boys knew about making an offering. I expect God interacted with this family often, although it is not written.

Click to expand...

Butch5 said:

Well, I have few more questions for you.

1. Paul said that the Gentiles were not under the law.

Romans 2:14 ( KJV )
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

That would mean that sinners don' come unfer the law every time they sin, or at least Gentile sinners.

2. How does the Law demand anything?

3.

Romans 10:4 ( KJV )
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

4. Paul said that the wage of sin is death, if Christ paid that debt, why do believers die?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

logabe said:

You're getting tougher and tougher with these questions. I guess I'll
try to answer all of them in one post. I hardly know where to start.

When I use the term “law,” I refer to any command that God gives us,
whether part of the written record of Scripture or by a direct leading
of the Holy Spirit. Anything that God says to do is a law, for God
requires obedience to all of His commands.

Israel was “saved” or “justified by faith” when they left Egypt. That is,
they heeded the call and had faith that God would bring them out of
bondage and into the inheritance that He had promised them. This
preceded the law by about fifty days. This was to show us that
justification is distinct from the law and from sanctification. Romans
3:28 says,

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from
works of the law.

Once Paul established that justification is not by the law, then in
Romans 6 he began to teach the principles of sanctification. Romans
6:1, 2 says,

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace
might abound?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Now Butch...you have to get the next statement in order to get a
good understanding how God operates.

"Sin is the transgression of the law,” John says in 1 John 3:4 (KJV).
More literally, the verse reads, “sin is lawlessness” (NASB). The
Greek word is anomia. It comes from the Greek word nomos, “law.”
The law defines sin for us. Murder is a sin because the law defines
it so in Exodus 20:13. Adultery is a sin because the law defines it
so in Exodus 20:14. Theft is a sin because the law defines it so in
Exodus 20:15.

The Apostle Paul tells us in Romans 3:20, “through the law comes
the knowledge of sin.” He says also in Romans 7:7,

7 I would not have come to know sin except through the law; for I
would not have known about coveting if the law had not said, You
shall not covet.

Because all men have sinned, there is no way for anyone to be
justified by the law, for the law can only condemn the guilty. But
Jesus came and paid the debt for the sin of the whole world in
order that we might be justified. The law does not care who pays
the debt, as long as it is paid. Jesus satisfied the full demand of
the law, and so the law no longer has grounds to condemn us
or to force us to pay the debt for our sin.

Yet in doing this, Jesus did not put away the law. If He had put
away the law, He would not have needed to pay its penalty. He
simply could have repealed the law. But He did not do this, for
the Apostle Paul says in Romans 3:31,

31 Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be!
On the contrary, we establish the law.

In America and every other nation, men are constantly changing
their laws. We used to have laws outlawing adultery and
homosexual relations. Those laws have now been put away.
This means that no one can be prosecuted in a court of law if
they do these things. Others want to put away the laws against
using marijuana or heroin. If those laws are put away, then no
one could be prosecuted for doing those things either.

So it is with God's law. Some Christians teach that God put
away His law, and not just a few of the laws, but the entire law.
If that were the case, then all human activity would be lawful in
the eyes of God. There would be no such thing as sin. God
would have no right to judge any man or nation for disobedience,
for nothing could be defined as disobedience or sin. Romans
4:15 says, “where there is no law, neither is there violation.”

Is there sin in the world? Only if the law is still in effect. Will God
judge the world at the Great White Throne? Only if there is a law
by which He may judge.

This does not mean that laws cannot change. They do change.
There are moral laws, of course, that remain unaltered. But there
are certain forms of the law that change, and there are changes
in administration and authorities that change. For example, in
the Old Testament, God required that men bring sacrifices to
the temple. In the New Testament, Jesus came to be the final
Sacrifice for all time that would never have to be repeated.
Likewise, in the Old Testament, the priestly authority was
restricted to the portion of Levites that were descended directly
from Aaron, Moses' brother. But in the New Testament Jesus
instituted a new priesthood of the Order of Melchizedek (Heb. 5:6)
that did not require physical descent from Aaron. Instead, it
required spiritual descent from Jesus Christ.

So yes, certain things in the law were changed. But murder is
still a sin, theft is still a sin, and adultery is still a sin. God did
not change His mind on those moral issues, nor did He
suddenly legalize them when Jesus died on the Cross.

Logabe

Click to expand...

Irish said:

Who is death? Who is life? Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets,.....He is life. The wages of sin is death. So believing in Christ is reckoned good for you, in that he fulfilled these things. Now in breaking that law or believing in Satan, who is death, you get your payday there too, or wages.

Irish

Click to expand...