WHY IS THE CHURCH GOING OUT BACKWARD?

Truther · Jun 25, 2020

amadeus said:
Yes and elder according to the meaning of the word, Pastor, a shepherd. In both Latin and Spanish the common word meaning shepherd is, Pastor. In English they are synonyms. Pastor comes from the Latin and Shepherd is of Germanic origin. The German word for sheep is Schafe.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

May I ask you a personal question?

Who is your Shepherd?

Truther · Jun 25, 2020

Chris1964 said:
Please cite lexical definitions for pastor and elder. Thanks

Will the KJV do?

Truther · Jun 25, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
Eph. 4:11-12
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the SHEPHERDS, the teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ.

Truther: “Duuhhhhhh, shepherd does NOT mean ‘shepherd’!!”

BOL: “Suuurrrrre, son – how ’bout a cookie?”

KJV

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Bingo, only one Shepherd per the KJV translators(John 10 and Jesus vindicated).

Good job guys!

amadeus · Jun 25, 2020

Truther said:
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

May I ask you a personal question?

Who is your Shepherd?

The One whose voice I hear each day. Sometimes He also speaks through one of His gifts to men:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Eph 4:11

Are not apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastor and teachers given to us by God as gifts?

"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness." Acts 4:31

Sometimes God puts His Word in your mouth as well my friend for others to hear! Is it not still God speaking?

BreadOfLife · Jun 25, 2020

Truther said:
KJV

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Bingo, only one Shepherd per the KJV translators(John 10 and Jesus vindicated).

Good job guys!

WRONG again, Einstein.
When in doubt - ALWAYS go back to the original Greek.

The Greek word used here Eph. 4:11 is ποιμεν (poy-mane'), and it means:
1) a herdsman, esp. a shepherd

Incidentally, Einstein – this is the SAME work Jesus uses in John 10 when He calls himself the “Good Shepherd”.

Game.
SET.
MATCH.

Chris1964 · Jun 25, 2020

Truther said:
Will the KJV do?

Is the kjv a lexicon? Post lexical definitions for pastor and elder.

mjrhealth · Jun 25, 2020

Truther said:
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

May I ask you a personal question?

Who is your Shepherd?

His Is Christ of that I can testify sadly He is one of teh few.

Truther · Jun 25, 2020

mjrhealth said:
His Is Christ of that I can testify sadly He is one of teh few.

Indeed, Jesus Christ is the only one that qualifies as my Shepherd, in which I shall not want....

The alternative shepherds shall want what we have...

Truther · Jun 25, 2020

Chris1964 said:
Is the kjv a lexicon? Post lexical definitions for pastor and elder.

I only use the KJV, not commentary.

Commentary is not scripture.

Truther · Jun 25, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
WRONG again, Einstein.
When in doubt - ALWAYS go back to the original Greek.

The Greek word used here Eph. 4:11 is ποιμεν (poy-mane'), and it means:
1) a herdsman, esp. a shepherd

Incidentally, Einstein – this is the SAME work Jesus uses in John 10 when He calls himself the “Good Shepherd”.

Game.
SET.
MATCH.

THE Good Shepherd..exactly.

How many good Shepherds are there?

Many, or one?

One?, Okay....then you are listening to bad shepherds.

Wait, is the Pope the good shepherd too?

Please elaborate on if he is THE good shepherd also, or not so good(bad) shepherd.

Thanks.

Truther · Jun 25, 2020

amadeus said:
The One whose voice I hear each day. Sometimes He also speaks through one of His gifts to men:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Eph 4:11

Are not apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastor and teachers given to us by God as gifts?

"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness." Acts 4:31

Sometimes God puts His Word in your mouth as well my friend for others to hear! Is it not still God speaking?

Exactly, but you still have only one Shepherd per John 10.

God even uses sinners to speak at times.

But it all comes from the one Shepherd.

Chris1964 · Jun 25, 2020

Truther said:
I only use the KJV, not commentary.

Commentary is not scripture.

And a commentary isn't a lexicon.

Addy · Jun 25, 2020

Truther said:
I have no idea what you are talking about.

A debate is judging?

This is what you stated

No, I am trying to tell folks that "the LORD is their Shepherd...."

They don't want the Lord to be that ONE Shepherd in their lives as Jesus insisted in John 10," but would rather have "tangible, sinful and deceive-able men" as carnal, right now over the phone and in person, shepherds, since they don't hear the real Shepherd's voice.

A debate is fine... it is a sharing of different views... Your post is a harsh judgement... I highlighted the 3 things that were judgemental.

Truther · Jun 25, 2020

Adoration said:
This is what you stated

No, I am trying to tell folks that "the LORD is their Shepherd...."

They don't want the Lord to be that ONE Shepherd in their lives as Jesus insisted in John 10," but would rather have "tangible, sinful and deceive-able men" as carnal, right now over the phone and in person, shepherds, since they don't hear the real Shepherd's voice.

A debate is fine... it is a sharing of different views... Your post is a harsh judgement... I highlighted the 3 things that were judgemental.

Exhortation from me to focus on the one true perfect Shepherd is now judging?

#1....they like multiple shepherds+Jesus.

#2....they know that all men can be deceived, yet ignore it anyway.

#3....they run to the pastor to hear from God, instead of going always straight to Jesus for their situation.

Like I said, this is exhortation.

Truther · Jun 25, 2020

Chris1964 said:
And a commentary isn't a lexicon.

But a lexicon is not the Bible, but commentary.

BreadOfLife · Jun 25, 2020

Truther said:
THE Good Shepherd..exactly.
How many good Shepherds are there?

There are MANY shepherds. Jesus is the "Good shepherd" (ποιμεν, 'poy-mane').

Truther said:
Many, or one?
One?, Okay....then you are listening to bad shepherds.
Wait, is the Pope the good shepherd too?
Please elaborate on if he is THE good shepherd also, or not so good(bad) shepherd.
Thanks.

Yup - Eph. 4:11-12 obliterates you entire argument . . .
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the SHEPHERDS (ποιμεν, 'poy-mane') and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ

Now, go dust off your Bible and STUDY . . .

mjrhealth · Jun 25, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
There are MANY shepherds. Jesus is the "Good shepherd" (ποιμεν, 'poy-mane').

Yup - Eph. 4:11-12 obliterates you entire argument . . .
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the SHEPHERDS (ποιμεν, 'poy-mane') and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ

Now, go dust off your Bible and STUDY . . .

11 I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 But he who is a hireling and not the shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and runs away. And the wolf catches them and scatters the sheep. 13 The hireling flees, because he is a hireling and does not care for the sheep. 14 I am the Good Shepherd, and I know those that are Mine, and I am known by those who are Mine.

many hirelings out there.

marksman · Jun 26, 2020

Truther said:
There is no original Greek, but copies.

Also, translated as shepherd by whom?

What is written in Greek is original. Derek Prince who I knew very well, was a Professor of Linguistics at Cambridge University, specializing in Hebrew and Greek. He was born again during his time at the uni. Because of his speciality, he brought a vast knowledge of the Hebrew language to his Christian teaching. I was always spellbound as he used to explain various Hebrew and Greek words which opened up the scriptures in their true interpretation. So I am very confident that what I say is correct as I could not get a better teacher than that and to add to it, my senior lecturer at Bible College was a converted Jew who knew Judaism inside out.

marksman · Jun 26, 2020

Chris1964 said:
Please cite lexical definitions for pastor and elder. Thanks

You will be better off if you quote scripture.
Ephesians 4:11 very clearly states that Jesus appointed shepherds in the body of Christ.

! Timothy and Titus very clearly state that Paul asked them to appoint Elders in the body of Christ.

There are 26 verses in the New Testament that speak of leadership in the NTC and not once does it mention pastors. That role is the province of the Apostles, Prophets, and Elders.

marksman · Jun 26, 2020

Truther said:
You skip Jesus and go to another shepherd instead?

If you want to believe that go right ahead.

WHY IS THE CHURCH GOING OUT BACKWARD?

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