Catholics & Protestants-What's the beef?

There's no beef..... just a bunch of turkeys! rofl

Hello Miss Hepburn --

I was just cruising the Internet and found this site. I hope you don't mind if I give you my .02 on the question you asked.

If you do a word search in the Bible, you will find that the word for "church" is "eklessia" in the Greek and qahal in the Hebrew. We know that these words are connected because the word "qahal" appears in Pslams 22:22. Hebrews then quotes Psalms 22:22 and the word appears as "eklessia". The meaning of the words is "congregation" or "gathering". It is literally the gathering of or congregation of God's people.

Now....who were God's people? They were those who had been entered into the covenant of God and through that covenant had been made "His people." In being part of this congregation, they had a definite and structured form of worship given to them, a hierarchy of leadership, and physical places set apart where God would specifically meet with them (the Temple or synagogue). There was a single leader over the covenant people of God who interceded for the congregation once a year -- the high priest. The continuation of the congregation as God's peculiar people depended upon the high priest once a year making an atonement for their sins and renewing the covenant with God so that national Israel continued as God's special people.

When Jesus came, He did not come to establish something new. He came to redeem God's people to the Father. At the same time, Jesus prophesied that the congregation, aka the "Kingdom of God", would be taken from the Jews and given to "a new nation". You can read this prophecy in Matt. 21: 33-46. Jesus explicitly declares that the congregation will no longer be administered by the Jews, but by a new people who would be put in charge of it.

We see the beginnings of this change when Jesus appoints 12 Apostles. It is significant that he appoints 12, for that is the number of the heads of the tribes of national Israel. This is not a mistake. It is very deliberate. Secondly, Jesus appoints one of these 12 to be the leader among them -- Simon Peter. Then, finally, Jesus Himself is the Great High Priest who ever lives to make intercession in the "tabernacle not made with hands" and in doing so, assures that there will never again be another apostasy like unto that which national Israel committed.

So we have qahal (congregation) in the Old Covenant which becomes "eklessia" (congregation) in the New Covenant. It does not change or make it a different congregation. Notice that in Matthew 21: 33-46, the "vineyard" does not change, only the administration of it.

Thus, the New Covenant congregation is established with the same structure, but something radically different about it. Now all the feasts pointing to the coming Messiah are celebrated in fulfillment because Christ Jesus moves into them. The new church is given a leadership in the Apostles, a basic worship format, and is also promised the protection of the Holy Spirit as it grows (Matt. 13:31).

During the centuries in which the Church grew into maturity, many men came along with the idea that they knew better than the teachings of the Apostles. The first of these are found in Acts 15 -- those of the "Circumcision Party" who insisted that Gentiles could not be saved and truly Christian unless they were first circumcised. Then there came Arias in the fourth century with his heresy which has never completely gone away -- the idea that Jesus is merely a created being and not the unique Son of God, one in essence with the Father. After that came other heretics, all proclaiming that they had a knowledge that superseded and was more true than what the Church had taught over the years.

Up until the 16th century, none of these heretics gained much headway against the Church, but in the 16th century, men began once again to teach ideas that had never been taught and this time, the ideas found a fertile soil. The heresies they taught were aided by political upheavals in Europe in which emperors and kings, seeking political advantage, used the teachings of the Reformers as a weapon against the rule of the Church over their kingdoms. Henry the VIII is perhaps the most famous and well known example of this, but much the same took place all over Europe. It was a time of great upheaval in the Church, which had been one in doctrine for 1500 years.

The main reason for the separation between Catholics and Protestants is the issue of what has been called "forensic justification". It is the teaching (not found in scripture) that God "imputes" Christ's righteousness to unworthy sinners and declares them legally forgiven. It comes from a wretched translation of the Greek word "logizomai" in Romans 3. The numerous Protestant divisions which have crept up over the years came from internal disagreements, many times over minuscule nonsense blown all out of proportion. (Do we dunk once or three times in baptism, for instance.)

It really comes from the pride of man.

And God condemns it. Look at these words. They should be very sobering to all who foment rebellion against God's congregation:

[sup]19[/sup]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

[sup]20[/sup]Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

[sup]21[/sup]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.





Notice the part I have put in bold. Variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions and heresies are what the Reformers participated in during their rebellion against the Congregation of the Lord.

No one in his right mind would deny that there were changes needed in the Church in the 16th century. But rebellion against ordained authority, shredding the congregation into pieces, and creating turmoil in the hearts of the faithful is not the right way to change the Church. Does not the Bible itself teach us that "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual."?

That is a small summation of a great topic and a deep subject which could easily go to many more pages. I hope it helps a bit.

Thank you for those kind words and Merry Christmas to you and to all!!

Surf Rider said:

There's no beef..... just a bunch of turkeys! rofl

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Got a good chuckle out of this Surf Rider, thanks

Miss Hepburn said:

Well, that made me sick to my stomach -guess I won't be reading anymore of your posts here.
That is the strongest statement I've ever made on any forum.

I have to scrub now with ajax until I'm raw, thank you very much. No, that was the strongest, I surprise myself!!!
I've got the heebies now.

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I totally agree Miss Hepburn!!

Well, Miss Hepburn and also you, forgivenWretch ...

The Lord forgives, but is his patience endless?

Try, perhaps, researching the 'accusations' I have tabled, as all good Jews must do when a prophet arises among them.

Am I a prophet? No ... But I am quoting in line with a broad grouping of prophets of the End Times (most in the Church of England, but there are others within many other different faiths, even non-demoninational so called "non Christian" faiths the rumour goes ...

Come on. Our warning is given in good faith. Our Lord is merciful and just. Warning of His Wrath must be given.

Best regards,
QuarterMaster

The catholic church came into existance ~320 AD. They did not write the first Bible text or come close. They did produce 50 vellum manuscripts in 350 AD (some survive until today)

There are some good reads and historical facts: read, Martyr's Mirror, Foxe's bood of Martyrs and Trail of Blood.

It is easy to find the doucments even of the catholics telling of themselved killing millions of Christians. A catholic cardinal in New York was asked by a reporter, "is it true the catholic church has killed an estimated 36,000,000 Christians?". He said, "everybody makes mistakes" and kept on talking like it was nothing.

There was a lot of torture from the government of Rome prior to the catholic church coming along but the atrocities and torture got much worse after the catholics came into existance.

This is easy to find and well documented factual history by Baptist, AnaBaptist, Protestants and Catholics.

The catholics say they pray over the Eucharist and it turns into the actual body and blood of Christ and is for the forgiveness of sin. The practice infant baptism and regenerative baptism. They are Catholics, not Christian.

I talked with a man ~44 years old and he accepted Christ. He was a devout catholic and taught by Jesuit fathers for 18 years. He said, the catholic church is in gross error and anyone accepting Christ, praying and studying scripture will come out of it. He should know.

Maybe there is a little beef with an organization that murders the saints and kills Christians and trys to corrupt the Word of God.

Read history; it's everywhere and even the catholics admit it. What more do you need?

It is my sincere desire that Catholics will repent and accept Christ as theri Lord and Savior. Mary worship will not get it, nor will statue worship or praying to the saints.

You must come through Jesus Christ and accept Him before it is too late.

you can find the quote as follows:

Stanislaus Hosius, The Begynnyng of Heresyes in Oure Tyme, translated out of Latin into English by Richard Shacklock, 1565:
pp. 44-48

"For if so be, that as every is moste redy to suffer deathe for the faythe of his sect, so his faythe sholde be judged moste perfect and most sure, there shall be no faythe more certayne and true, then is the Anabaptistes, seying there be none now, or have bene before time for the space of these thousand and to hundred yeares, who have bene more cruelly punyshed, or that have more stoutely, stedfastly, cherefully taken theire punishment, yea or have offered them selves of their owne accorde to death, were it never so terrible and grevouse. Yea in Saint Augustyn his time, as he hym selffe sayeth, there was a certaine monstrouse desire of deathe in them. ... Nether was there such folyshe hardy heretkes in Sainst Augustine his tyme only. For foure hundred years agone, at what time S. Bernard lyved, there were Anabaptistes, which were no lesse prodigal to spend their lyfe, then were the Donatists, some (saythe he) did mervayle that they were led to theire deathe not only paciently but as it semed very frolyke and merye.
...If you beholde their cherefullnes in suffring persecutions, the Anabaptists run farr before all other heretykes. If you will have regarde to the number, it is like that in multitude they would swarm above al other, if they were not grevously plaged and cut off with the knyfe of persecution. If you have an eye to the outewarde appearaunce of godlynes, bothe the Lutherans and the Zuinglians muste nedes graunte, that they farr passe them.
...And surely howe many so euer haue wrytten agaynst this heresie, whether they were Catholykes or Heretykes, they were able to overthrowe it not so muche by the testimony of the scriptures, as by the authoritie of the Churche."

Baptist are not Protestant; never were and never were a part of the reformation or did they ever pull out of the catholic church.

Even in old writings you can find catholic cardinals admitting Baptist were around before catholics.

I wonder what the Head of the Church "Jesus" could do, if we stopped judging on another, stopped putting labels on each other and all did what we were called to do. Think of the great voting power and resources that would be at our disposal??

Baptist and Catholics don't believe in abortion, and I don't, and am not Catholic or Baptist.

We all would like to see the Ten commandments posted in Schools and we don't care much for new Adult book stores opening up in our community's.

We all care about people and feed them. Where I Live there is a very large Catholic group that pays peoples rent, and gives tons of food away. Amazing how they do that, but God is involved.

I can't go along with several Catholic things as I don't see them clearly in the scriptures, and I don't care for another Baptist sermon about how tongues and healing has passed away, though I see Catholic divisions not doing some of the things we would consider not scriptural and I see baptist filled with the Holy Ghost pray in tongues.

Paul by the Spirit of God said we all see though a glass darkly. That came from a man that wrote most the new Testament. I wonder where that puts me?

Scripture says that the body should be fit jointly together edifying itself in love. (Eph 4:16) I don't see a place in there that said we would all agree though, but that love commandment is pretty clear to me.

I suppose if you think tongues has passed away, and you need time out to do the rosary, then we don't have to mention those or talk about it. We can talk about getting our ten commandments back in school and get prayer in our schools. We can talk about teaching our children why it's immoral to have sex out of marriage and stop handing out birth control to perpetuate sin.

There are tons of things to talk about.

If you think there is another way to God but Jesus, and that that they found his bones in a box, and there was no Resurrection, then You and I have nothing to talk about.
If you don't think He is Lord, and God, the same as the Father, then You and I have nothing to talk about.
If you put down other in a attempt to prove what you believe is right, then you have lots of growing up to do. Love is the Key to victory.

Any Half wit can take scriptures and put down someone, Satan is real good at it, and we know where He is going to end up. It takes a Godly person full of the fruit of the Spirit to walk in Love, and trust God, that He is more than able to reveal things to people. That is what Jesus could use, more of us banding together, and getting done what needs done. Even sinners do it better than us. I believe that day is coming....... I believe.

Jesus Is Lord.

I find it hard to believe that a "Roman" Catholic Church, didn't chafe some proud Germans.