The True Religion

Duckybill said:

As I said earlier, punishment in the fire is mentioned several times in the NT. It's quite evident that MANY who spend eternity in Hell will be those who deny its existence.

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Duckybill,

This is not necessarily for you, but for anyone willing to be unbiased, willing to look at the Bible with an open mind, putting aside what the churches teach. There are three Greek words that are rendered as "hell" and "hellfire" in the King James Bible, Gehenna, which is the Greek form of the Hebrew Geh Hin·nom´, meaning “Valley of Hinnom” (Matthew 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Luke 9:43, 45, 47; 12:5; James 3:6), the Greek word hai´des (Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Rev 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14), and the Greek verb tar·ta·ro´o at 2 Peter 2:4. Thus, three Greek words have been given the same basic rendering of "hell" by the King James Bible, leading to a grossly misunderstood meaning and therefore believing that God torments people in a "hellfire".

At Ecclesiastes 9:5, it says: "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."(King James Bible) This harmonizes with Psalms 146:3, 4, which reads: "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. (Upon death) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."(King James Bible) The teaching of "hellfire" can only be upheld if the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is true.

At Genesis 2:7, it says: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."(King James Bible) Thus, we are souls, not possessing one. This is further seen at Genesis 19:20, in which Lot requested from the angel to flee to city of Zoar: "Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live."(King James Bible) Would Lot have asked for his 'soul to live ' if it were something separate from the body and immortal ?

Just before the exodus of the nation of Israel from Egypt, God told the Israelites concerning the seven day festival of unfermented cakes, that "whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel"(Ex 12:15, King James Bible), and again, that "whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel."(Ex 12:19, King James Bible) At Ezekiel 18:4, God says: "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."(King James Bible) Hence, the soul, which is us as a person with all our desires, can be "cut off" or die, for we are all sinners.

Since, the soul dies, then what can be tormented forever ? Nothing, for Psalms 115:17 says: "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."(King James Bible) Those who die, become ' silent ', for their ' thoughts have perished'. No one can therefore be tormented in a "hellfire."

Sounds like belief in Hell is now being considered a condition of salvation. Jesus saves, not doctrine.

Guestman said:

No one can therefore be tormented in a "hellfire."

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How many references to punishment in the fire do you need? There are many.

Matthew 7:15-19 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. [sup]16 [/sup]You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? [sup]17 [/sup]Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. [sup]18 [/sup]A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. [sup]19 [/sup]Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and THROWN INTO THE FIRE.

Duckybill said:

How many references to punishment in the fire do you need? There are many.

Matthew 7:15-19 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. [sup]16 [/sup]You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? [sup]17 [/sup]Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. [sup]18 [/sup]A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. [sup]19 [/sup]Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and THROWN INTO THE FIRE.

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So,

Tree = a person

Fruit = works

Fire = Fire?

You are interpreting literally in a very selective manner - who is to say Fire = literal Fire? How about torment? Or do you also believe that all residents of Hell will be given indestructible teeth to nash for eternity too?

aspen said:

So,

Tree = a person

Fruit = works

Fire = Fire?

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Yes, "Fire = Fire".

You are interpreting literally in a very selective manner - who is to say Fire = literal Fire? How about torment? Or do you also believe that all residents of Hell will be given indestructible teeth to nash for eternity too?

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I didn't 'interpret' anything. You did. Need more?

Matthew 13:40-42 (NKJV)
[sup]40 [/sup]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. [sup]41 [/sup]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [sup]42 [/sup]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Duckybill said:

How many references to punishment in the fire do you need? There are many.

Matthew 7:15-19 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. [sup]16 [/sup]You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? [sup]17 [/sup]Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. [sup]18 [/sup]A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. [sup]19 [/sup]Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and THROWN INTO THE FIRE.

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On the other hand, how much exacting scriptural information is needed to convince one of God's love and how he deals with people. The reference to "fire" does not necessarily mean literal fire, for John the Baptist told the Pharisees: "You offspring of vipers, who has intimated to you to flee from the coming wrath ?....I, for my part, baptize you with water because of your repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize you people with holy spirit and with fire."(Matt 3:7, 11)

Does this mean literal fire ? No. Rather John the Baptist pointed to their destruction, which occurred over 40 years later, when General Titus came against the city of Jerusalem on April 3, 70 C.E., and finished it off on August 30, 70 C.E., leveling everything, including the temple, with only the towers of Herod’s palace and a portion of the western wall left standing as evidence to later generations of the defensive strength that had availed nothing.

John further told the Pharisees: "His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will completely clean up his threshing floor, and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.” Thus, these religious leaders, unless they repented, were destined for the "fire that cannot be put out, eternal destruction or Gehenna. Just as the "chaff" here is not literal, but represents those who are sifted out as being not worthy of everlasting life, so likewise the "fire" here represents not eternal torment, but everlasting destruction, from which there is no resurrection.

Just as the "tree" at Matthew 7 is not a literal tree, but represents people, whether good or bad, so likewise of those who do "not bear good fruit", these are "cut down and thrown into the fire" (Matt 7:19) is not literal but pictures the everlasting destruction that awaits all those who defy God. Though given ample opportunity to change, with now a world-wide educational work being done, those who disregard God's laws and commands, these are to be "cut down and thrown into the fire" of eternal destruction, never to exist again. It is like being in jail or prison without parole. Jesus used symbolisms throughout his ministry that pictured people and events.

Guestman said:

On the other hand, how much exacting scriptural information is needed to convince one of God's love and how he deals with people. The reference to "fire" does not necessarily mean literal fire, for John the Baptist told the Pharisees: "You offspring of vipers, who has intimated to you to flee from the coming wrath ?....I, for my part, baptize you with water because of your repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize you people with holy spirit and with fire."(Matt 3:7, 11)

Does this mean literal fire ? No. Rather John the Baptist pointed to their destruction, which occurred over 40 years later, when General Titus came against the city of Jerusalem on April 3, 70 C.E., and finished it off on August 30, 70 C.E., leveling everything, including the temple, with only the towers of Herod’s palace and a portion of the western wall left standing as evidence to later generations of the defensive strength that had availed nothing.

John further told the Pharisees: "His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will completely clean up his threshing floor, and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.” Thus, these religious leaders, unless they repented, were destined for the "fire that cannot be put out, eternal destruction or Gehenna. Just as the "chaff" here is not literal, but represents those who are sifted out as being not worthy of everlasting life, so likewise the "fire" here represents not eternal torment, but everlasting destruction, from which there is no resurrection.

Just as the "tree" at Matthew 7 is not a literal tree, but represents people, whether good or bad, so likewise of those who do "not bear good fruit", these are "cut down and thrown into the fire" (Matt 7:19) is not literal but pictures the everlasting destruction that awaits all those who defy God. Though given ample opportunity to change, with now a world-wide educational work being done, those who disregard God's laws and commands, these are to be "cut down and thrown into the fire" of eternal destruction, never to exist again. It is like being in jail or prison without parole. Jesus used symbolisms throughout his ministry that pictured people and events.

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You tried attacking Hell and that didn't work. Now you're attacking FIRE. That won't work either. And yes, it is certainly eternal and unquenchable. Many will soon find out too late for them.

Matthew 13:40-42 (NKJV)
[sup]40 [/sup]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. [sup]41 [/sup]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [sup]42 [/sup]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Duckybill said:

You tried attacking Hell and that didn't work. Now you're attacking FIRE. That won't work either. And yes, it is certainly eternal and unquenchable. Many will soon find out too late for them.

Matthew 13:40-42 (NKJV)
[sup]40 [/sup]Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. [sup]41 [/sup]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [sup]42 [/sup]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

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Duckybill,

Are you now saying that fire has nothing to do with "hell" when you're the one who quoted Matthew 7:15-19, and highlighted "THROWN INTO THE FIRE." ? You're the one who attached all the meaning of "fire" to "hell".

Guestman said:

Duckybill,

Are you now saying that fire has nothing to do with "hell" when you're the one who quoted Matthew 7:15-19, and highlighted "THROWN INTO THE FIRE." ? You're the one who attached all the meaning of "fire" to "hell".

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Nope, I'm definitely not saying that. Hell is directly linked to fire.

Mark 9:43-48 (NKJV)
[sup]43 [/sup]If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- [sup]44 [/sup]where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' [sup]45 [/sup]And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- [sup]46 [/sup]where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' [sup]47 [/sup]And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire-- [sup]48 [/sup]where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

Well, I guess we better get out the hatchet and start hacking off hands......we have a lot of work to do and the population is growing more everyday....

We aren't maiming them! We are saving them from Hell!!

Oriegen actually castrated himself because of this verse.......oh the literalism! OH THE HUMANITY!

Jesus must love us indeed, because we are a concrete thinking people......He had to have been God to put up with the concrete thinking from Peter alone - not to mention the rest of the disciples

aspen said:

Well, I guess we better get out the hatchet and start hacking off hands......we have a lot of work to do and the population is growing more everyday....

We aren't maiming them! We are saving them from Hell!!

Oriegen actually castrated himself because of this verse.......oh the literalism! OH THE HUMANITY!

Jesus must love us indeed, because we are a concrete thinking people......He had to have been God to put up with the concrete thinking from Peter alone - not to mention the rest of the disciples

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Jesus didn't say that mutilating oneself would save anyone. Jesus said "IT IS BETTER for you to enter into life maimed" than to go to Hell where "the fire is not quenched".

Duckybill said:

Nope, I'm definitely not saying that. Hell is directly linked to fire.

Mark 9:43-48 (NKJV)
[sup]43 [/sup]If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- [sup]44 [/sup]where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' [sup]45 [/sup]And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- [sup]46 [/sup]where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' [sup]47 [/sup]And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire-- [sup]48 [/sup]where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

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If you had done your "homework" concerning Mark 9:43-48, you could of seen that verses 44 and 46, which read in the King James Bible: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" do not exist, but were added by another hand apparently after the fifth century C.E. The Montgomery New Testament says of Mark 9:44, "Verse 44 is lacking in the most ancient manuscripts." William's New Testament says "Mark 9:44 <p>" or blank. Weymouth's New Testament says: "Mark 9:44 []" This is repeated for verse 46. These verses are not found in the authoritative Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus, both of the fourth century, Codex Ephraemi rescriptus, Greek, of the fifth century and the Freer Gospels, of the fifth century.

If one is to take literal Mark 9:48, which says, according to the King James Bible: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched", then explain Jesus words: "For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" at Mark 9:49. How could "everyone", including righteous ones, be "salted with fire" if verse 48 is to be taken as literal ? And also explain how a person is to "be salted with salt" if Mark 9 is to be seen as literal. In addition, explain how a "worm" can live forever in a "fire" that is "not quenched” since you believe that all of this is not symbolic.

Guestman said:

If you had done your "homework" concerning Mark 9:43-48, you could of seen that verses 44 and 46, which read in the King James Bible: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" do not exist, but were added by another hand apparently after the fifth century C.E. The Montgomery New Testament says of Mark 9:44, "Verse 44 is lacking in the most ancient manuscripts." William's New Testament says "Mark 9:44 <p>" or blank. Weymouth's New Testament says: "Mark 9:44 []" This is repeated for verse 46. These verses are not found in the authoritative Codex Siniaticus and Codex Vaticanus, both of the fourth century, Codex Ephraemi rescriptus, Greek, of the fifth century and the Freer Gospels, of the fifth century.

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I just checked 16 English translations and every one included :

Mark 9:48 (KJV)
[sup]48 [/sup]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

So what is your point?

If one is to take literal Mark 9:48, which says, according to the King James Bible: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched", then explain Jesus words: "For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" at Mark 9:49. How could "everyone", including righteous ones, be "salted with fire" if verse 48 is to be taken as literal ? And also explain how a person is to "be salted with salt" if Mark 9 is to be seen as literal. In addition, explain how a "worm" can live forever in a "fire" that is "not quenched” since you believe that all of this is not symbolic.

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Hell is a very nasty place. The point is that we had better make sure we don't spend eternity in that AWFUL place.

Duckybill said:

Jesus didn't say that mutilating oneself would save anyone. Jesus said "IT IS BETTER for you to enter into life maimed" than to go to Hell where "the fire is not quenched".

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You are kidding right? You really are so literal that you cannot see the reason why I wrote this post?

aspen said:

You are kidding right? You really are so literal that you cannot see the reason why I wrote this post?

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Jesus meant exactly what He said. It is better to cut off all your limbs than to spend eternity in Hell. MUCH better.

Duckybill said:

I just checked 16 English translations and every one included :

Mark 9:48 (KJV)
[sup]48 [/sup]Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

So what is your point?

Hell is a very nasty place. The point is that we had better make sure we don't spend eternity in that AWFUL place.

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You still dodged the questions, just as the religious leaders of Jesus day.(Matt 21:23-27) All you have done is try to force a square peg in a round hole. God has already displayed his hate for the Israelites " burning their sons and daughters in the fire" (Jer 7:31)and yet you are so unreasonable so as to view Jesus words as literal, despite God's abhorrence for this, calling what the Israelites did an "abomination...evil in my sight...a sin....provoking me to anger."(Jer 32:32-35) As a result of this and other detestable practices, he decreed that they be "delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence."(Jer 32:36)

This repulsive false religious teaching is what caused Charles Darwin to turn away from even so-called Christianity and establish his own teaching of evolution in 1859. According to Alister McGrath, it was Darwin’s “visceral distaste” for the doctrine of hellfire—not his belief in evolution—that raised doubts in his mind about the existence of God. Darwin could not fathom a God of love doing such a heinous thing to anyone. Alister McGrath, in his book The Twilight of Atheism: The Rise and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World (pg 104), noted that "a close reading of Darwin's writings shows that the main reason for his doubting the Christian concept of God had little to do with his theory of evolution. Darwin's animus was primarily his visceral distaste for the "damnable doctrine" of eternal punishment of nonbelievers."

True Christians recognize that the doctrine of a "hellfire", as taught by the churches, is indeed disgusting, portraying God as really devious, saying on the one hand he is love (1 John 4:8), but on the other hand one who places supposedly bad people in an eternity of fiery torment. It must also be recognized that without the false religious doctrine of the immortality of the soul, the teaching hellfire has no leg to stand on. Ezekiel 18:4 says that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die."(King James Bible) Since the soul dies, it's "thoughts perish" (Ps 146:4), ' returning to dust' (Gen 3:19), then there is nothing to "burn."

Despite George W's example, obstinance does not equal being steadfast or holding to the truth.

Guestman said:

You still dodged the questions, just as the religious leaders of Jesus day.(Matt 21:23-27) All you have done is try to force a square peg in a round hole. God has already displayed his hate for the Israelites " burning their sons and daughters in the fire" (Jer 7:31)and yet you are so unreasonable so as to view Jesus words as literal, despite God's abhorrence for this, calling what the Israelites did an "abomination...evil in my sight...a sin....provoking me to anger."(Jer 32:32-35) As a result of this and other detestable practices, he decreed that they be "delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence."(Jer 32:36)

This repulsive false religious teaching is what caused Charles Darwin to turn away from even so-called Christianity and establish his own teaching of evolution in 1859. According to Alister McGrath, it was Darwin’s “visceral distaste” for the doctrine of hellfire—not his belief in evolution—that raised doubts in his mind about the existence of God. Darwin could not fathom a God of love doing such a heinous thing to anyone. Alister McGrath, in his book The Twilight of Atheism: The Rise and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World (pg 104), noted that "a close reading of Darwin's writings shows that the main reason for his doubting the Christian concept of God had little to do with his theory of evolution. Darwin's animus was primarily his visceral distaste for the "damnable doctrine" of eternal punishment of nonbelievers."

True Christians recognize that the doctrine of a "hellfire", as taught by the churches, is indeed disgusting, portraying God as really devious, saying on the one hand he is love (1 John 4:8), but on the other hand one who places supposedly bad people in an eternity of fiery torment. It must also be recognized that without the false religious doctrine of the immortality of the soul, the teaching hellfire has no leg to stand on. Ezekiel 18:4 says that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die."(King James Bible) Since the soul dies, it's "thoughts perish" (Ps 146:4), ' returning to dust' (Gen 3:19), then there is nothing to "burn."

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I repeat, there will be MANY in Hell for eternity who don't believe in Hell.

Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

"If someone asks you what the true religion is, what will you answer?"

Speak no evil.

Think no evil.

Do no evil.

Larry Conlley said:

"If someone asks you what the true religion is, what will you answer?"

Speak no evil.

Think no evil.

Do no evil.

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Yeah who needs the Bible - those 3 monkeys said it all!

Love unconditionally