Is all the fussing and feuding what God wants?

[O'Darby]

O'Darby says YES!

We all moan and groan over the sad state of Christendom. "Christianity" is actually five or six different religions fragmented into three huge branches, further fragmented into umpteen factions. The supposed body of Christ looks more like a giant mutant centipede.

We all say we'd prefer peace and harmony, but it's impossible to achieve even within a little slice of Christianity like this board. If only people like O'Darby and @St. SteVen, @Mr E and others would go away and let us real Christians debate whether baby Jesus needed diapers and biblical stuff like that.

Is this bad? Is God unhappy?

O'Darby says NO! - or mostly no, anyway. To me, this OBVIOUSLY has to be what God intended.

God could have generated a five-page plain-English Bible that would have left little doubt in anyone's mind as to what was required. He didn't. He generated a complex Bible that has resulted in the fragmentation and the often-bitter fussing and feuding we now see. This HAS to be what He intended.

Why? Well, if everyone had exactly the same Vacation Bible School version of Christianity, things would be rather dull and stagnant. My guess is that from God's perspective "believing the correct things" is less important than "the journey of belief."

It's the journey - the wrestling with issues, the thinking about what we believe and why, even the fussing and feuding - that keeps us engaged and growing. Even if we go off on some weird tangent, it's OK. It's those who think they have all the answers who stagnate, who have no real relationship with God or themselves.

I think it extends even to the other religions. I don't say all religions are paths to God, but I do believe the Holy Spirt can work in any and all religions and that other religions can enhance my journey of belief.

In short, I believe the mess called "religion" and the mess called "Christianity" are, in fact, God's plan for humanity.

It would be nice if we could all accept that God is a huge mystery - the Eternal Transcendent Other - and that our convictions are merely attempts to come to grips with this mystery. It might at least tone down much of the fussing and feuding.

If anyone is making God unhappy, my guess is that it's the cocksure Christians who think there is no mystery, they have all the answers, and their mission is to shout down anyone who disagrees because GOD WANTS YOU TO BELIEVE THE RIGHT THINGS!!!

I think I've previously mentioned books like Zondervan's 41-volume Counterpoints Series, where mostly Protestant scholars debate key issues on which they hold wildly divergent views: Zondervan Counterpoints Series (41 vols.). These books are wonderful examples of what incredibkly diverse beliefs can coexist within just the Protestant branch and how they can be discussed intelligently and respectfully in a way that enhances everyone's journey of belief.

YMVM. Too many words, O'Darby. We stopped reading after the first two sentences. Get back to us when you're a real Christian.

 

[MatthewG]

O'Darby says YES!

He desires us to love through differences.

We all moan and groan over the sad state of Christendom.

I’m not one of the all. I’m not part of “Christianity” but am a follower of Yeshua.

"Christianity" is actually five or six different religions fragmented into three huge branches, further fragmented into umpteen factions. The supposed body of Christ looks more like a giant mutant centipede.

No doubt.

We all say we'd prefer peace and harmony, but it's impossible to achieve even within a little slice of Christianity like this board.

It’s hard to do that sometimes with other people, believer or not.

If only people like O'Darby and @St. SteVen, @Mr E and others would go away and let us real Christians debate whether baby Jesus needed diapers and biblical stuff like that.

Is that how you feel about you and your friends?

Is this bad? Is God unhappy?

God is pleased with Faith.

O'Darby says NO! - or mostly no, anyway. To me, this OBVIOUSLY has to be what God intended.

God did intend for people to work through the differences and love their neighbor as their self. If we can get to that point there is unity and understanding with disagreements but hope and support to continue to encourage to not give up, faith or hope.

God could have generated a five-page plain-English Bible that would have left little doubt in anyone's mind as to what was required. He didn't. He generated a complex Bible that has resulted in the fragmentation and the often-bitter fussing and feuding we now see. This HAS to be what He intended.

That is pretty cool, and it’s amazing the correlations between the Old Testament and the Apostolic Record.

Why? Well, if everyone had exactly the same Vacation Bible School version of Christianity, things would be rather dull and stagnant.

Do you mean going verse by verse? Chapter by chapter? That is one of the best ways to shepherd people all the while telling them you don’t have all the answers, some things you may be wrong about, to encourage individuals to seek out for themselves in prayer and look to God for help, but also comparing scripture with scripture to be able to get a firm foundation. That is what leads people to become mature Yeshuans. Or followers of Yeshua.

My guess is that from God's perspective "believing the correct things" is less important than "the journey of belief."

If I hate my neighbor I’m no worse than a murderer. The gospel, is the death, burial, resurrection, and that is when new birth is given in a person who faithfully believes God rose his son from the dead, otherwise our faith is in vain, and Jesus did not rise.

It's the journey - the wrestling with issues, the thinking about what we believe and why, even the fussing and feuding - that keeps us engaged and growing.

They always say, iron sharpens iron, not that it’s a knife in the throat game. Challenging one’s traditions, taught beliefs, what a person may say, and seeking for answers. Is a way to test all things, get rid of the bad and hold on to the good.

Even if we go off on some weird tangent, it's OK. It's those who think they have all the answers who stagnate, who have no real relationship with God or themselves.

I can’t say that for 100% certain. It’s the flesh though I could say for 100% certain and not the spirit.

I think it extends even to the other religions. I don't say all religions are paths to God, but I do believe the Holy Spirt can work in any and all religions and that other religions can enhance my journey of belief.

Same. God is definitely not limited to touching people’s heart who seek him, despite religious disposition.

In short, I believe the mess called "religion" and the mess called "Christianity" are, in fact, God's plan for humanity.

I don’t know, Gods plan is to allow us to live and make our choices in this body. Placing him in our lives or not. Gods plan to reconcile the world to himself through Christ has worked. He continues to call all daily.

It would be nice if we could all accept that God is a huge mystery - the Eternal Transcendent Other - and that our convictions are merely attempts to come to grips with this mystery.

I believe God desires us to see him as our Father, and we just don’t know his ways all the time, or why he handles things the way he may sometimes. But most certainly he looks for a relationship and not to be a mystery but our Father.

It might at least tone down much of the fussing and feuding.

It’s a good effort… but human nature can’t be tamed except by the spirit.

If anyone is making God unhappy, my guess is that it's the cocksure Christians who think there is no mystery, they have all the answers, and their mission is to shout down anyone who disagrees because GOD WANTS YOU TO BELIEVE THE RIGHT THINGS!!!

Unfaithfulness is not pleasing God and not walking in the spirit by faith.

I think I've previously mentioned books like Zondervan's 41-volume Counterpoints Series, where mostly Protestant scholars debate key issues on which they hold wildly divergent views: Zondervan Counterpoints Series (41 vols.). These books are wonderful examples of what incredibkly diverse beliefs can coexist within just the Protestant branch and how they can be discussed intelligently and respectfully in a way that enhances everyone's journey of belief.

If you can love through differences that’s great! It can be done by the spirit of God, with God dwelling in you. Abiding in the vine.

YMVM. Too many words, O'Darby. We stopped reading after the first two sentences. Get back to us when you're a real Christian.

Never questioned.

 

[Pearl]

We all moan and groan over the sad state of Christendom. "Christianity" is actually five or six different religions fragmented into three huge branches, further fragmented into umpteen factions. The supposed body of Christ looks more like a giant mutant centipede.

The body of Christ though is not in religions, it is not fragmented. It is made up of many parts with one Head. So whichever denomination or tradition we belong to all born again believers are part of that one body.

 

[O'Darby]

The body of Christ though is not in religions, it is not fragmented. It is made up of many parts with one Head. So whichever denomination or tradition we belong to all born again believers are part of that one body.

That's why I referred to the "supposed" body of Christ. The actual body of Christ is something different. "All born again believers" is one of those phrases that can, and does, generate as much fussing and feuding as OSAS or The Forbidden T Doctrine. If we think we can define it, or know it when we see it, we delude ourselves. Only God knows who is and isn't part of the body of Christ.

 

[Berserk]

God forces Jacob to wrestle with Him in a vision and then changes Jacob's name to Israel, which means "one who wrestles with God."
Jesus and Paul teach that Jesus' followers represent the True or Spiritual Israel. So, of course, theological debate is an essential aspect of living out our identity as True Israel.

 

[MatthewG]

. Only God knows who is and isn't part of the body of Christ.

Are you saying that, people are unable to know if they are part of the body of Christ then? The Bible is useless (if that is the case), in its promotion of those who believe on the Lord Yeshua, they become children of God being adopted and calling out to the Father. And those who live by the spirit, are unable to know they have the spirit, cause only God knows who is and is not part of the body of Christ? There is no changed experience from being spiritually awaken?

Sounds to me like a hopeless message, in my opinion, O’Darby.

 

[O'Darby]

God forces Jacob to wrestle with Him in a vision and then changes Jacob's name to Israel, which means "one who wrestles with God."
Jesus and Paul teach that Jesus' followers represent the True or Spiritual Israel. So, of course, theological debate is an essential aspect of living out our identity as True Israel.

Really well-said, Berserk. I actually had Jacob in mind. "Wrestling with God" is apt description of a sincere spiritual journey. "Putting myself in a straitjacket" is what too many people think faith requires.

 

[O'Darby]

Are you saying that, people are unable to know if they are part of the body of Christ then? The Bible is useless (if that is the case), in its promotion of those who believe on the Lord Yeshua, they become children of God. And those who live by the spirit, are unable to know they have the spirit, cause only God knows who is and is not part of the body of Christ? There is no changed experience from being spiritually awaken?

Sounds to me like a hopeless message, in my opinion, O’Darby.

Yes, like the Eastern Orthodox, I believe we will find out if we were part of the body of Christ when we stand before God and He tells us we were. Why would this render the Bible "useless" - the EO certainly don't think so. Why would "certainty" be important to one's Christian walk? One can't even have certainty about the existence of God - any God. Far from hopeless, I find the sort of spiritual journey I'm talking about more liberating and authentic - and, I suspect, more pleasing to God - than the cocksure Christianity of many. But, hey, you must find your own path.

I just posted what I insisted was my last post on these forums on another thread a minute ago, and I've already broken my vow twice before logging off. Done, finished. Anything further I have to say will be on my blog (which no one reads - and by God, that's how I like it!).

 

[MatthewG]

Yes, like the Eastern Orthodox, I believe we will find out if we were part of the body of Christ when we stand before God and He tells us we were. Why would this render the Bible "useless" - the EO certainly don't think so.

That is fine, if you rather do that. But it seems to void promises, such as entering and eating with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, at the table in the kingdom of God. Maybe I just overthink. Perhaps they are relying on hope to go be with God. Which is part of all the family of believers hope.

Why would "certainty" be important to one's Christian walk?

It’s, hope and a changed life, that a believer hopes to go to be in the kingdom of God. It won’t be because of any of the work we did, it will be because of the work of the Lord Jesus Christ whom should be told to God, “He did everything I couldn’t do.”

One can't even have certainty about the existence of God - any God.

Nope. It’s by faith one believes. All of it could be just a straight lie. And the resurrection is not true.

Far from hopeless, I find the sort of spiritual journey I'm talking about more liberating and authentic - and, I suspect, more pleasing to God

The only thing that pleases God is faith. With faith comes, hope and love.

- than the cocksure Christianity of many. But, hey, you must find your own path.

Everyone must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling your right.

I just posted what I insisted was my last post on these forums on another thread a minute ago, and I've already broken my vow twice before logging off. Done, finished. Anything further I have to say will be on my blog (which no one reads - and by God, that's how I like it!).

Okay, thank you for explaining.

 

[Lambano]

Sometimes I wonder if all this diversity within the Body might actually be a survival trait.

(When we're not trying to "bite and devour one another", that is.)

 

[BlessedPeace]

O'Darby says YES!

We all moan and groan over the sad state of Christendom. "Christianity" is actually five or six different religions fragmented into three huge branches, further fragmented into umpteen factions. The supposed body of Christ looks more like a giant mutant centipede.

We all say we'd prefer peace and harmony, but it's impossible to achieve even within a little slice of Christianity like this board. If only people like O'Darby and @St. SteVen, @Mr E and others would go away and let us real Christians debate whether baby Jesus needed diapers and biblical stuff like that.

Is this bad? Is God unhappy?

O'Darby says NO! - or mostly no, anyway. To me, this OBVIOUSLY has to be what God intended.

God could have generated a five-page plain-English Bible that would have left little doubt in anyone's mind as to what was required. He didn't. He generated a complex Bible that has resulted in the fragmentation and the often-bitter fussing and feuding we now see. This HAS to be what He intended.

Why? Well, if everyone had exactly the same Vacation Bible School version of Christianity, things would be rather dull and stagnant. My guess is that from God's perspective "believing the correct things" is less important than "the journey of belief."

It's the journey - the wrestling with issues, the thinking about what we believe and why, even the fussing and feuding - that keeps us engaged and growing. Even if we go off on some weird tangent, it's OK. It's those who think they have all the answers who stagnate, who have no real relationship with God or themselves.

I think it extends even to the other religions. I don't say all religions are paths to God, but I do believe the Holy Spirt can work in any and all religions and that other religions can enhance my journey of belief.

In short, I believe the mess called "religion" and the mess called "Christianity" are, in fact, God's plan for humanity.

It would be nice if we could all accept that God is a huge mystery - the Eternal Transcendent Other - and that our convictions are merely attempts to come to grips with this mystery. It might at least tone down much of the fussing and feuding.

If anyone is making God unhappy, my guess is that it's the cocksure Christians who think there is no mystery, they have all the answers, and their mission is to shout down anyone who disagrees because GOD WANTS YOU TO BELIEVE THE RIGHT THINGS!!!

I think I've previously mentioned books like Zondervan's 41-volume Counterpoints Series, where mostly Protestant scholars debate key issues on which they hold wildly divergent views: Zondervan Counterpoints Series (41 vols.). These books are wonderful examples of what incredibkly diverse beliefs can coexist within just the Protestant branch and how they can be discussed intelligently and respectfully in a way that enhances everyone's journey of belief.

YMVM. Too many words, O'Darby. We stopped reading after the first two sentences. Get back to us when you're a real Christian.

Well, if you get right down to the pizza and grits of the matter, it's simple.



If God didn't want us to be like this, he wouldn't have made it so.

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