Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, bascally Greek Myths or just Mistranslation.

Hobie · Nov 21, 2020

The realm of the dead is as the word says, dead, but many have picked up ancient Greek myths or even older pagan mysteries and made them beliefs such as Purgatory, Limbo and Hades. It comes from the worship of the dead or ancestor worship which involve addressing prayers or offerings to the spirits of the dead. It existed among the ancient Greeks, other ancient people. The practice of worship for the dead and praying to them, or making prayer or offerings on behalf of the dead to contribute to their afterlife purification is not scriptural and in fact is forbidden in the Bible.

Deuteronomy 18
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Purgatory is the belief that presupposes that the dead can be assisted between death and their entry into their final abode. Purgatory is given as a way that no matter how sinful or unbelieving, when you die, you go to Purgatory and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven, so no acceptance of Christ is needed, you can buy your way in. In ancient Egypt in the worship of the dead, substantially the same doctrine of purgatory was taught as today and its priests created grand funerals and masses for the dead, along with celebration of prayer and other services for the dead.

Hobie · Nov 21, 2020

Now Limbo as a belief seems to presuppose that the dead are held in the Greek myth of the underworld (Hades) and came to be associated mainly with Limbo of Infants, where the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins.

The problem of picking up these ideas from Greek mythology is because of the Greek words used in translating from the Hebrew text has become confused with Greek myths. Christians picked up these false ideas and beliefs of immortality of the soul, or that a part of, or essence of, or spirit being of an individual being held in the underworld, from Greek mythology. This is at odds and in contrast to the scriptural teaching that the dead go to the grave and know nothing and at the end, a eternal oblivion of the wicked and a eternal life for the saints.

The Greeks had come up with myths that all the dead dwell below the earth in the realm of Hadēs and Persephonē, good and bad alike, and were held in a dark existence. The Greek god Hades was the king of the underworld, a place where souls live after death. The Greek god Hermes, the messenger of the gods, would take the dead soul of a person to the underworld. Hermes would leave the soul on the banks of the River Styx, the river between life and death. Charon, also known as the ferry-man, would take the soul across the river to Hades, if the soul had gold: Upon burial, the family of the dead soul would put coins under the deceased's tongue. Once crossed, the soul would be judged by Aeacus, Rhadamanthus and King Minos. The soul would be sent to Elysium, Tartarus, Asphodel Fields, or the Fields of Punishment. The Greeks picked up many ideas from the Egyptian beliefs of the Book of the Dead and developed them further in how the dead continue to exist, and of reincarnation and even transmigration of souls. These ideas are particularly associated with the pagan Greek Religious Mysteries or Eleusinian mysteries , where initiation in this life into its ‘mysteries’ are the prerequisites for getting to paradise in the next life.

Hobie · Nov 21, 2020

So you see where the Greek words used came loaded with ideas not in line with the original Hebrew, or what Scripture teaches, but since at the time, Greek was used as basically English is used today to communicate between people across the world, it was translated into these Greek words, and we have to go back to what the original Hebrew scribes words they wrote to understand their meaning.

Hades was the Greek work used in some places for the Hebrew term, Sheol or grave as "the place of the dead". Thus, it is used in reference to both the righteous and the wicked, since both wind up there eventually.

Gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnon", which was a place outside of Jerusalem where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation were thrown there to be destroyed. Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after the resurrection.

Tartaro occurs only once in the New Testament in II Peter 2:4, and basically means the abyss or oblivion. Also the Hebrew word Abaddon, meaning to perish or "destruction", is sometimes used and basically means the same as the abyss or oblivion.

As you can see, Hades is the Greek word used for the Hebrew word Sheol in Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible. While earlier translations most often translated Hades as "hell", as does the King James Version, modern translations use the transliteration "Hades", or render the word as allusions "to the grave", "among the dead", "place of the dead" and many other like statements in other verses. In Latin, Hades began to incorrectly be translated as Purgatorium or Purgatory in English, around 1200 A.D., but no modern English translations put Hades as Purgatory.Modern translations, however, no longer translate Sheol as "Hell" at all, instead rendering it "the grave," "the pit," or "death."

So if one really looks at the true meaning of the words, it becomes clear, Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades are Greek Myths which got mixed in the translation, and the dead are in the grave, knowing nothing and quite dead, literally.

Cristo Rei · Nov 21, 2020

Hobie said:
So you see where the Greek words used came loaded with ideas not in line with the original Hebrew, or what Scripture teaches, but since at the time, Greek was used as basically English is used today to communicate between people across the world, it was translated into these Greek words, and we have to go back to what the original Hebrew scribes words they wrote to understand their meaning.

Hades was the Greek work used in some places for the Hebrew term, Sheol or grave as "the place of the dead". Thus, it is used in reference to both the righteous and the wicked, since both wind up there eventually.

Gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnon", which was a place outside of Jerusalem where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation were thrown there to be destroyed. Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after the resurrection.

Tartaro occurs only once in the New Testament in II Peter 2:4, and basically means the abyss or oblivion. Also the Hebrew word Abaddon, meaning to perish or "destruction", is sometimes used and basically means the same as the abyss or oblivion.

As you can see, Hades is the Greek word used for the Hebrew word Sheol in Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible. While earlier translations most often translated Hades as "hell", as does the King James Version, modern translations use the transliteration "Hades", or render the word as allusions "to the grave", "among the dead", "place of the dead" and many other like statements in other verses. In Latin, Hades began to incorrectly be translated as Purgatorium or Purgatory in English, around 1200 A.D., but no modern English translations put Hades as Purgatory.Modern translations, however, no longer translate Sheol as "Hell" at all, instead rendering it "the grave," "the pit," or "death."

So if one really looks at the true meaning of the words, it becomes clear, Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades are Greek Myths which got mixed in the translation, and the dead are in the grave, knowing nothing and quite dead, literally.

You said yourself that Hades is the Greek translation for the Hebrew word Sheol...
The Jews were writing about Sheol long before the Greek empire came to existence, therefore it can't just be a Greek myth...

There does appear to be another place besides heaven and hell...

BreadOfLife · Nov 21, 2020

Hobie said:
Purgatory is the belief that presupposes that the dead can be assisted between death and their entry into their final abode. Purgatory is given as a way that no matter how sinful or unbelieving, when you die, you go to Purgatory and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven, so no acceptance of Christ is needed, you can buy your way in. In ancient Egypt in the worship of the dead, substantially the same doctrine of purgatory was taught as today and its priests created grand funerals and masses for the dead, along with celebration of prayer and other services for the dead.

I wouldn't have expected anything less from a person as woefully-ignorant as you are about ALL things Catholic.
YOUR definition of Purgatory is as asinine and dishonest as everything else you post. Allow me to educate you . . .

First of all - "Purgatory" is simply the name given to the Biblical reality that is the Final Purification of the elect. It's not about "second chances" or getting things "sorted out" so you can get to Heaven.

In 1 Cor. 3:10‐15, this is how the process is described:
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person WILL be saved, but only as through fire."

- This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
- This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ ad there is NO salvation in Hell.
- This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification.
Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

MANY times in Scripture, we see God handing out his justice as a Refiner. We see in Malalchi 3:3, Jeremiah 6:27‐30, Ezekiel 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10, where God is the Refiner who burns away the impurities to get to the precious metal – the gold and silver.
Since Rev. 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean or impure can enter Heaven, a final purification or “purgation” is necessary for some before entering heaven.

As we read from the Catechism – YOUR definition is just another a crock of anti-Catholic lies . . .

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
II. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

Do your homework and tell the truth for once.
GOD is watching . . .

Illuminator · Nov 21, 2020

The origin of purgatory began in Judaism, not the Catholic Church. But nobody picks on them, that would be politically incorrect.

Hobie · Nov 21, 2020

Cristo Rei said:
You said yourself that Hades is the Greek translation for the Hebrew word Sheol...
The Jews were writing about Sheol long before the Greek empire came to existence, therefore it can't just be a Greek myth...

There does appear to be another place besides heaven and hell...

It is simply the grave...

Bible Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Sheol
Sheol [N] [E]
Old Testament. The Hebrew word seol [l/a.v], "Sheol, " refers to the grave or the abode of the dead ( Psalms 88:3 Psalms 88:5 ). Through much of the Old Testament period, it was believed that all went one place, whether human or animal ( Psalms 49:12 Psalms 49:14 Psalms 49:20 ), whether righteous or wicked ( Eccl 9:2-3 ). No one could avoid Sheol ( Psalm 49:9 ; 89:48 ), which was thought to be down in the lowest parts of the earth ( Deut 32:22 ; 1 Sam 28:11-15 ; Job 26:5 ; Psalm 86:13 ; Isa 7:11 ; Ezekiel 31:14-16 Ezekiel 31:18 ).

Hobie · Nov 21, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
I wouldn't have expected anything less from a person as woefully-ignorant as you are about ALL things Catholic.
YOUR definition of Purgatory is as asinine and dishonest as everything else you post. Allow me to educate you . . .

First of all - "Purgatory" is simply the name given to the Biblical reality that is the Final Purification of the elect. It's not about "second chances" or getting things "sorted out" so you can get to Heaven.

In 1 Cor. 3:10‐15, this is how the process is described:
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person WILL be saved, but only as through fire."

- This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
- This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ ad there is NO salvation in Hell.
- This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification.
Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

MANY times in Scripture, we see God handing out his justice as a Refiner. We see in Malalchi 3:3, Jeremiah 6:27‐30, Ezekiel 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10, where God is the Refiner who burns away the impurities to get to the precious metal – the gold and silver.
Since Rev. 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean or impure can enter Heaven, a final purification or “purgation” is necessary for some before entering heaven.

As we read from the Catechism – YOUR definition is just another a crock of anti-Catholic lies . . .

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
II. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

Do your homework and tell the truth for once.
GOD is watching . . .

Please read your Bible, clearly it is not there even trying to twist and turn its meaning...

Now here is what its meaning is seen as... basically a 'hell' on earth..(unless of course you give a 'donation' to get out.. Selling Forgiveness: How Money Sparked the Protestant Reformation)

pur·ga·to·ry
/ˈpərɡəˌtôrē/

noun
noun: purgatory; plural noun: purgatories; noun: Purgatory

(in Roman Catholic doctrine) a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven.
"all her sins were forgiven and she would not need to go to Purgatory"
- mental anguish or suffering.
  "this was purgatory, worse than anything she'd faced in her life"
  h
  Similar:
  torment
  
  torture
  
  misery
  
  suffering
  
  affliction
  
  anguish
  in anguish" data-au="//ssl.gstatic.com/dictionary/static/sounds/20200429/anguish--_us_1.mp3">
  agony
  
  wretchedness
  woe
  
  tribulation
  
  hell
  
  hell on earth
  an ordeal
  a nightmare
  a hellhole
  an abyss
  trials and tribulations
  h
  Opposite:
  paradise
  
  bliss

adjective
archaic
adjective: purgatory

having the quality of cleansing or purifying.

historyb · Nov 21, 2020

Hobie said:
Purgatory is the belief that presupposes that the dead can be assisted between death and their entry into their final abode. Purgatory is given as a way that no matter how sinful or unbelieving, when you die, you go to Purgatory and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven, so no acceptance of Christ is needed, you can buy your way in. In ancient Egypt in the worship of the dead, substantially the same doctrine of purgatory was taught as today and its priests created grand funerals and masses for the dead, along with celebration of prayer and other services for the dead.

That is probably the biggest lie that evangelicals spread about Purgatory because most are to lazy to find out the truth. Purgatory is only for those already saved by God, if your not saved you go to hell period. As CS Lewis writes:

"Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?

I believe in Purgatory.

Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on the 'Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory' as that Romish doctrine had then become.....

The right view returns magnificently in Newman's DREAM. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer 'With its darkness to affront that light'. Religion has claimed Purgatory.

Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'

I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don't think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.

My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am 'coming round',' a voice will say, 'Rinse your mouth out with this.' This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."

- C.S. Lewis, Letters To Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, chapter 20, paragraphs 7-10, pages 108-109

Another resource CS Lewis on Purgatory and George MacDonald: What Does This Mean for Protestants?

Illuminator · Nov 21, 2020

Hobie said:
++++Selling Forgiveness: How Money Sparked the Protestant Reformation)

Uncharitable, misleading, fear mongering divisive propaganda written by radical reformists. Even Bible colleges stopped teaching that crap.

BreadOfLife · Nov 21, 2020

Hobie said:
Please read your Bible, clearly it is not there even trying to twist and turn its meaning...

Now here is what its meaning is seen as... basically a 'hell' on earth..(unless of course you give a 'donation' to get out.. Selling Forgiveness: How Money Sparked the Protestant Reformation)

pur·ga·to·ry
/ˈpərɡəˌtôrē/

noun
noun: purgatory; plural noun: purgatories; noun: Purgatory

(in Roman Catholic doctrine) a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven.
"all her sins were forgiven and she would not need to go to Purgatory"

mental anguish or suffering.
"this was purgatory, worse than anything she'd faced in her life"
h
Similar:
torment

torture

misery

suffering

affliction

anguish
in anguish" data-au="//ssl.gstatic.com/dictionary/static/sounds/20200429/anguish--_us_1.mp3">
agony

wretchedness
woe

tribulation

hell

hell on earth
an ordeal
a nightmare
a hellhole
an abyss
trials and tribulations
h
Opposite:
paradise

bliss

adjective
archaic
adjective: purgatory

having the quality of cleansing or purifying.

Sooooo, I give you the official Catholic teaching from the Catechism - and YOU give me a secular definition from the dictionary.
This is a TEXTBOOK example of why I said that you were woefully-ignorant of ALL things Catholic.

Another example is your perverted history is your insistence that the Church "sold" forgiveness via Indulgences.
NOWHERE did the Catholic Church ever teach that you could BUY your way out of Purgatory. This was an abuse by men like Johan Tetzel of Germany - the very man who incited Luther to write his so-called "95 Theses" and nail it to the door of the Cathedral at Wittenberg.

Funny how ignorant anti-Catholics like YOU like to perpetuate the fairy tale that this was "officially mandated" by the Catholic Church - yet you can NEVER seem to present the document.
Gee - I WONDER why that is . . .

Illuminator · Nov 21, 2020

Purgatory is not about paying the penalty of sin. Jesus on the Cross pays the penalty of our sin -- which is death. Those in purgatory are not in spiritual death; they are all headed to heaven.

Purgatory pays for the "consequences" of our sin, not for the sin itself.

For example, if I throw a rock through your window I have committed a sin. I can become sorry for my sin and go to Confession and be absolved of that sin. Jesus paid the price for my sin. But......... the window is STILL broken. The broken window is the "consequence" of my sin and it still needs to be repaired. The Cross does not repair the window, that is my responsibility.

Thus, one of the aspects of purgatory is to pay for all the broken windows in our life that we did not get around to paying for during our life on earth.

As to why Purgatory? The answer is love. We cannot enter heaven unless we are perfected and totally holy. While we may die in a state of grace most of us are probably not perfect. Purgatory is a place of perfection. It purges the imperfections from us 'til what is left is pure gold. God loves us and wants us perfected.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is a great definition of Purgatory.

In other words, how well we lived our lives as Christians will be judged, the good works and not-so-good works will be judged. The not-so-good works are the wood, hay, and straw that will burn up in the purging. The good works are the gold, silver, and precious stone that will survive the purging.

We cannot enter heaven with works that can be consumed. We must enter heaven only with works to our credit that can survive the fire. Thus God, who loves us so, provides a way for us to rid ourselves of the wood, hay, and straw in our lives so that we can enter heaven perfect and holy.

Again, this is NOT about purging sin, it is about purging the consequences of sin (paying for the broken windows) and about purging our imperfections in living the Christ-life.

Some Protestants call this the "Judgment Seat of Christ". Our salvation is not being judged here, rather how well we lived our life for Christ is being judged. While some Evangelicals refer to this as Judgment Seat of Christ and Catholics call it Purgatory, it is the same thing.

Hobie · Dec 4, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
Sooooo, I give you the official Catholic teaching from the Catechism - and YOU give me a secular definition from the dictionary.
This is a TEXTBOOK example of why I said that you were woefully-ignorant of ALL things Catholic.

Another example is your perverted history is your insistence that the Church "sold" forgiveness via Indulgences.
NOWHERE did the Catholic Church ever teach that you could BUY your way out of Purgatory. This was an abuse by men like Johan Tetzel of Germany - the very man who incited Luther to write his so-called "95 Theses" and nail it to the door of the Cathedral at Wittenberg.

Funny how ignorant anti-Catholics like YOU like to perpetuate the fairy tale that this was "officially mandated" by the Catholic Church - yet you can NEVER seem to present the document.
Gee - I WONDER why that is . . .

The Catechism is just ideas of men and their tradition, nothing from God.

Hobie · Dec 4, 2020

Scripture tells us that the dead are awaiting resurrection at the last judgment, when Christ comes and also when each person will receive his reward (Matt 8:11-12; II Cor 5:10; Rev 20:12), and a time of surprises for some when individuals who have proclaimed their fidelity to Jesus who will discover that in fact, they have no relation to him at all and are part of those lost with the wicked, while others who have made no claims for themselves but like the thief on the cross had faith, will find their lives rewarded with eternal life along with the other saints. (Matt 7:21-23; Luke 13:25-30).

In the Hebrew text it teaches that when people die they go to sheol, the grave (Gen. 37:35), Gehenna which is the consuming by fire of the wicked. Compare Young's Literal Translation...
Genesis 37:35 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
and all his sons and all his daughters rise to comfort him, and he refuseth to comfort himself, and saith, `For -- I go down mourning unto my son, to Sheol,' and his father weepeth for him.

Matthew 5:22-29 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
22 but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.
23 `If, therefore, thou mayest bring thy gift to the altar, and there mayest remember that thy brother hath anything against thee,
24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go -- first be reconciled to thy brother, and then having come bring thy gift.
25 `Be agreeing with thy opponent quickly, while thou art in the way with him, that the opponent may not deliver thee to the judge, and the judge may deliver thee to the officer, and to prison thou mayest be cast,
26 verily I say to thee, thou mayest not come forth thence till that thou mayest pay the last farthing.
27 `Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not commit adultery;
28 but I -- I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart.
29 `But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

Which when the grave or the eternal oblivion of the wicked was translated into Greek, the word Hades was sometimes used, which is a term for the realm of the dead. Nevertheless the meaning depending on context was the grave, death, or the end of the wicked in which they are ultimately destroyed in the specific way in which scripture shows at the end, which is a consuming fire which destroys them for eternity, the "lake of fire".

Revelation 20:15 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

So we see where the grave or death or eventual destruction of the wicked, was translated using Greek words that since they had no exact ones to use, became a mix of mistranslation, pagan influence, and Greek myth associated with the word, but its original meaning was simple death or the destruction of the wicked at the end. Hades was simply the word closest in meaning to the Hebrew Sheol. The new versions now leave the word 'Sheol' untranslated, which is better than the Greek words used which cause confusion if the necessary basic Hebrew to Greek word translation used at the time is not understood.

Hobie · Dec 4, 2020

So now that we clarify some the translation issues, we can more clearly see what scripture teaches. If we read the Hebrew text, we see the prophets who wrote the Bible did not know the word "Hell"; they used the Hebrew Sheol, which meant the grave, and also descriptions which with the translation to Greek, three different Greek words are used that are translated as Hell. Its important to know this, for they each mean something different. They are Tartarus,Gehenna, and Hades. Tartarus is used only once in the New Testament, in 2 Peter 2:4.

The Scripture says,
God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment (2 Peter 2:4).

This verse says that the angels that sinned (which would include Lucifer, too) have already been cast down to hell by God Himself. Yet they arent burning right now, obviously, and they certainly arent suffering somewhere far beneath the earth. Tartarus means dark abyss or place of restraint. It isnt a place of punishment either. Look carefully. 2 Peter 2:4 says Satans angels are reserved unto judgment, which means their punishment is yet future. For Satan and his evil angels, the fire hasnt started yet.

Next lets look at the word:Gehenna. All authorities admit this word is derived from the name of the narrow, rocky valley of Hinnom just south of Jerusalem where trash, filth, and the bodies of dead animals were burned up in Bible days. Here is a quote from Bible Facts" by Jenny Roberts ..Gehenna meant "the valley of Hinnom", and was originally a particular valley outside Jerusalem, where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch (2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chron. 28:3;Jer. 32:35). In later Jewish literature Gehenna came to be associated with a place of torment and unquenchable fire that was to be the punishment for sinners. It was thought by many that lesser sinners might eventually be delivered from the fires of Gehenna, but by New Testament times punishment for sinners was deemed to be eternal...."

Jesus Christ spoke about Gehenna many times such as in Matthew 5:22, 29 & 30 where He warned about the danger of hell [Gehenna] fire(Matthew 5:22). Gehenna definitely suggests real flames. The key question is when will this fire burn, Christ shows us when the fire will burn:
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:40-42)

Peter taught the same thing when he wrote:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:7

Peter also adds even more, as to what will come to pass after the wicked are destroyed and the earth is cleansed of all sin and its affects.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10

BreadOfLife · Dec 4, 2020

Hobie said:
The Catechism is just ideas of men and their tradition, nothing from God.

Wrong, as usual.
The Catechism is the teachings of Christ's Church found in Scripture.

Besides, Einstein - the argument was ABOUT a Catholic definition, so the Catechism is crucial to the discussion.

Illuminator · Dec 4, 2020

Hobie said:
The Catechism is just ideas of men and their tradition, nothing from God.

Must you be so insulting? Not to mention profoundly ignorant?

Purgatory is given as a way that no matter how sinful or unbelieving, when you die, you go to Purgatory and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven, so no acceptance of Christ is needed, you can buy your way in.

3 lies in one sentence.

ReChoired · Dec 4, 2020

I was still hoping for a discussion about purgatory from a Roman Catholic based on the two following questions.

If I might ask a Roman Catholic a personal question, and not to be in any way derogatory, but I am simply asking out of curiosity, as I used to think such things, having grown up Roman Catholic, and my question to such personally is this - Do you think you will personally go to 'purgatory', and if so, how long do you think you will be 'there'? (As I said, I am simply asking a technical question, not saying anything about their personal character, and am curious to know, as I used to think in this manner.)

Another question, in the same fashion, as I used to think on this too, is - Does any Roman Catholic personally know of anyone who died that they might think is right now in 'purgatory', and if so, how long do you think they will be there for, and based upon what doctrinal criteria do you, as a Roman Catholic, think this (if you think this)?

WaterSong · Dec 7, 2020

I believe it was former Pope Benedict who declared Limbo to be closed.
Re: Purgatory, Limbo
Limbo: Have you read Plato's Republic? And its myth of Er?

Re:
Purgatory. this selection quoted by Eusebius in Praeparatio Evangelica (ch. 38):
For [Plato] speaks as follows in the dialogue Concerning the Soul:

‘…As soon as the dead have arrived at the place to which each is conveyed by his genius, first of all they undergo a trial, both those who have lived good and holy and just lives, and those who have not. And those who are found to have led tolerable lives proceed to Acheron, and embarking on such vessels as there are for them, they arrive on board these at the lake; and there they dwell, and by undergoing purification and suffering punishment for their evil deeds they are absolved from any wrongs they have committed, or receive rewards for their good deeds, each according to his deserts. But any who are found to be incurable by reason of the greatness of their sins, having either perpetrated many great acts of sacrilege, or many nefarious and lawless murders, or any other crimes of this kind—-these are hurled by their appropriate doom into Tartarus, whence they never come forth.

‘But those who are found to have committed sins which are great though not incurable, as for instance if in anger they have done any violence to father or mother, and passed the rest of their life in penitence, or have committed homicide in any other similar way, these must also be thrown into Tartarus, but after they have been thrown in and have continued there a year, they are cast out by the wave, the homicides by way of Cocytus, and the parricides by way of Pyriphlegethon: and when they arrive all on fire at the Acherusian lake, there with loud cries they call upon those whom they either slew or outraged; and having summoned them they intreat and beseech them to let them come out into the lake, and to receive them kindly: and if they persuade them, they come out, and cease from their troubles; but if not, they are carried again into Tartarus, and thence back into the rivers, and never have rest from these sufferings, until they have won over those whom they wronged; for this was the sentence appointed for them by the judges.

‘But any who are found to have been pre-eminent in holiness of life—-these are they who are set free and delivered from these regions here on earth, as, from prison-houses, and attain to the pure dwelling place above, and make their abode upon the upper earth. And of this same class those who have fully purified themselves by philosophy live entirely free from troubles for all time to come, and attain to habitations still fairer than these, which it is neither easy to describe, nor does the time suffice at present. But for the sake of these things which I have described we ought, Simmias, to make every effort to gain a share of virtue and of wisdom in our lifetime: for fair is the prize, and great the hope.’

BreadOfLife · Dec 7, 2020

WaterSong said:
I believe it was former Pope Benedict who declared Limbo to be closed.
Re: Purgatory, Limbo
Limbo: Have you read Plato's Republic? And its myth of Er?

Re:
Purgatory. this selection quoted by Eusebius in Praeparatio Evangelica (ch. 38):
For [Plato] speaks as follows in the dialogue Concerning the Soul:

‘…As soon as the dead have arrived at the place to which each is conveyed by his genius, first of all they undergo a trial, both those who have lived good and holy and just lives, and those who have not. And those who are found to have led tolerable lives proceed to Acheron, and embarking on such vessels as there are for them, they arrive on board these at the lake; and there they dwell, and by undergoing purification and suffering punishment for their evil deeds they are absolved from any wrongs they have committed, or receive rewards for their good deeds, each according to his deserts. But any who are found to be incurable by reason of the greatness of their sins, having either perpetrated many great acts of sacrilege, or many nefarious and lawless murders, or any other crimes of this kind—-these are hurled by their appropriate doom into Tartarus, whence they never come forth.

‘But those who are found to have committed sins which are great though not incurable, as for instance if in anger they have done any violence to father or mother, and passed the rest of their life in penitence, or have committed homicide in any other similar way, these must also be thrown into Tartarus, but after they have been thrown in and have continued there a year, they are cast out by the wave, the homicides by way of Cocytus, and the parricides by way of Pyriphlegethon: and when they arrive all on fire at the Acherusian lake, there with loud cries they call upon those whom they either slew or outraged; and having summoned them they intreat and beseech them to let them come out into the lake, and to receive them kindly: and if they persuade them, they come out, and cease from their troubles; but if not, they are carried again into Tartarus, and thence back into the rivers, and never have rest from these sufferings, until they have won over those whom they wronged; for this was the sentence appointed for them by the judges.

‘But any who are found to have been pre-eminent in holiness of life—-these are they who are set free and delivered from these regions here on earth, as, from prison-houses, and attain to the pure dwelling place above, and make their abode upon the upper earth. And of this same class those who have fully purified themselves by philosophy live entirely free from troubles for all time to come, and attain to habitations still fairer than these, which it is neither easy to describe, nor does the time suffice at present. But for the sake of these things which I have described we ought, Simmias, to make every effort to gain a share of virtue and of wisdom in our lifetime: for fair is the prize, and great the hope.’

The idea of a "Limbo" was never a doctrinal teaching of the Catholic Church.
It was ALWAYS just a way of trying to reconcile what happened to people about whom Scripture is silent - such as miscarried babies, etc.

The Catholic Church has never changed a doctrinal position in 2000 years.

Is Purgatory, Limbo, and Hades, bascally Greek Myths or just Mistranslation.

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