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Why would any of those things be considered as being overcome? No matter what physically happens to a believer it’s not considered as being overcome, right? Was Paul overcome? 2 Corinthians 11:23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes...

Right, which clearly shows there is a difference between being overcome and killed. The two witnesses are both overcome and killed. How do you propose the two witnesses get overcome?

Yea, I agree with your post, new covenant saints have nothing to fear, God is the only one who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Since God isn’t going to destroy a new covenant saint, they have nothing to fear and they will never be overcome. That however doesn’t explain how the...

I agree, to be overcome means to be defeated in some kind of way, and it is stated in several places that the saints are overcome. The problem is believers under the new covenant can’t be overcome. Insisting it’s new covenant saints that are overcome is where the problem lies. If you would...

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. I’m guessing your in agreement with many preterist then that Matthew 24:21 is only referring to what happens or happened in a small area of the globe.

Alright, so only the saints in the nation of Israel will be overcome for 42 months while all the other saints across the planet are not overcome, is that your view? Is that really how you interpret the Revelation 13:7 phase “and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations”.

Philippians 1:20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. 21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Since when is...

I am, and the preterist view stands out as the most logical choice as it agrees and harmonizes more scripture than any other view. Can you answer the question of how a saint can be overcome when they are under the new covenant?

And Premil would have us believe that there’s going to be some kind of great tribulation where all Christians are in fear for their lives, when all a future beast will have to do is set up clinics where Premils can go and be euthanized.

So you’re saying the current Israeli government is the beast? We are looking at how the beast overcomes the saints not the enemies of the nation of Israel.

I absolutely agree, Jesus was not overcome and He willingly gave up His life. This is the example that those who will supposedly find themselves in a 42 month reign of the beast follow. They will not be overcome, they will willingly lay down their lives for their faith. That is why the beast...

I don’t believe a person can loose salvation but if you interpret those saints who worship the beast as loosing salvation then yea, that idea works. However, if you have saints being “overcome” because they are persecuted and face possible execution, then we will have to conclude all the...

Sure, I guess we can say Jesus was overcome when they nailed Him to the cross. However that event is not described that way and it doesn’t seem likely that John would be describing those in a future tribulation in that manner either. I would have to have a verse that says Jesus was overcome...

Well I don’t want to argue for or against the Amil view but do you see those who fall away being the same as the saints who are overcome by the beast? Put another way, do you think a saint can fall away, be overcome by the beast and still remain a saint?

Right, so how is it that they are being triumphed over when all the things that are happening to them are the things that they desire?

Jesus taught us to pray, “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”. If a believer truly wants Gods will to be done and they also believe the Revelation 13 beast is still future then they must want to be “overcome” by the beast else they are resisting the scriptures, Gods will, and desire...

Take a closer look at what Gill is saying, on the one hand he’s saying the saints are overcome by being physically killed, on the other hand the saints are not overcome because they die for their faith. You can’t have it both ways, either the saints are overcome by physical death or they aren’t...

Ok, thanks.

Ok, I actually agree that if you hold the view that salvation can be lost then you can put the Revelation 13 sea beast as a future event. Personally I don’t believe salvation can be lost so I don’t find that to be a possibility but I’m not going to debate salvation in this area of the forum...

Based on what you’re saying it appears to me that a person who holds a Premil view has to also believe that salvation can be lost. Would you agree with that assessment?