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Genesis (YLT) 48:17 And Joseph seeth that his father setteth his right hand on the head of Ephraim, and it is wrong in his eyes, and he supporteth the hand of his father to turn it aside from off the head of Ephraim to the head of Manasseh; 18 and Joseph saith unto his father, ‘Not so, my...

Genesis 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. I thought Ephraim was the fullness of the Gentiles...

On these two points we agree, no man can number the multitude and nowhere is the number 144,000 explicitly defined as the multitude. You then proceed to use counting to show how we can know that the 144,000 spiritually represents the multitude. Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy in which...

That’s very important points you’re bringing up, no where are the new covenant believers referred to as tribes. Maybe @TribulationSigns will let us know which tribe he is from.

Here’s what you about Revelation 21 … If we start out with knowing what results we want we can make the numbers represent anything we want. For example … In Revelation 7:1 the 4 angels are standing on the 4 corners of the earth holding the 4 winds, so we divide 144,000 by 4 = 36,000. Since...

How can I be the one playing games when I’m asking for the post number and you can’t give it? I have looked back several times, I don’t see it. If there is a post that shows it you should be able to present what post number it is. I see where you are mathematically breaking down the number...

What is the post number where he explained why the number 144,000 symbolically represents the entire Church? I know he posted several times showing that both the Church and the 144,000 have the same attributes as all believers individually have but I don’t find where he was able to show...

No you haven’t, unless your view has no explanation of why the number 144,000 is symbolic. It appears to me that you know if you give the reason 144,000 is symbolic then you also give the reason it can be numbered by man, hence your avoiding questions about how you arrived at your conclusion of...

Here is what you said in post #2273 … How did you come to the conclusion that the Church is the 144,000 without counting? Was it a guess? Your argument seems to be that since John heard the number 144,000 and it wasn’t a number that he counted, therefore we can come to the conclusion that it...

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Are you personally part of the general assembly and Church of the first born? Or are you personally the entire assembly and entire Church of the first born? Because nobody walks around claiming they are the entire body of Christ, that would violate 1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one...

Well personally I think the 144,000 being sealed is long pasted. In Revelation 7:4 John heard the number of them which were sealed, meaning previously sealed. They were sealed during the time that the four winds were not blowing.

Congratulations, you just proved the 144,000 are believers. Unfortunately nobody is arguing that they aren’t believers. The argument is whether they are the entire group of believers throughout time or not.

I agree that it’s not a single antichrist person, it’s a group of people that the parousia or coming happens in. 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should...

We could wait to see if their predictions come true but I would say most of us on the eschatology and prophecy board use a persons view on what has already been fulfilled and what hasn’t as a litmus test to see if they are to be trusted. If I were to create a thread titled “the millennium is...

Whether the number 144,000 is a head count or not isn’t the issue. You are saying that the multitude can be symbolically numbered by man, but verse 9 says no man can number them. 144,000 is a literal number, it certainly has symbolic meaning but it is a literal number just as 666 is a literal...

Your view is 144,000 = multitude that man can’t number. On the one hand you agree that no man can number the multitude and on the other hand you know that number is 144,000. You can’t have it both ways, one of those two hands isn’t the truth.

So how do you explain the number 144,000? If it’s meant as a symbolic number that equals the multitude that no man can number then no man can count that symbolic number. This means no man has the ability to determine what this number means, correct?

I don’t think anyone would disagree that the 144,000 are saved and if your view is that every saved person throughout history is part of the Church then yes, the 144,000 are the Church. But the disagreement is whether they are the entire Church or not. The fact that 144,000 can be numbered...

I just want to clarify, your view is that the physical city of Jerusalem was holy, <40> hagios, after the veil was torn? I don’t always agree with you but I do find it helpful that you give detailed explanations of your view.