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1. The Orthodox would argue that they, not the Roman Catholics, did--and that the Roman Catholics are the first Protestants, having arrogated yourselves to a position you didnt earn or merit, having unilaterally decided to change the ancient tradition by adding the "Filioque". 2. I'm part of...

Yes, they got a lot right. Of course. They have the Bible. Your attitude is the typical Catholic attitude--ie, "I'm 100% correct, and cannot be corrected." That attitude is not conducive to actual analysis and discussion of ideas.

Don't use them if you won't use them correctly. Maybe your idea is just wrong. Again, your analogy doesn't work, then : God has commands, whereas your "father" has no commands. That is a flaw in your analogy, not in my conclusion of the message of the Scriptures. Not interested in a Catholic...

The reason this analogy doesn't work is because, Biblically, if the son doesn't fulfill his father's will, he is disowned/disinherited/blotted out of the Book--he unbecomes a son, he doesn't remain a son. He is denied before the Father and His holy angels, as Jesus warns in the Synoptic Gospels...

You said if the good thing is done, then the person gets the good thing.

Yep, you did : if the person doesn't do the "meritorious" thing, he doesn't get the blessing, thus it isn't a gift, the dynamic of which totally differs.

You're not going to convince me that a conditioned reward is the same as a gift--a gift is not given upon fulfillment of a condition, it's just given.

Without the meriting, it wouldn't have been given, so, no, it isn't given freely, it is rewarded upon fulfillment of a condition. The two are not the same.

If you say "I'll give this to you freely", that differs from "If you do something for me, you'll get this, but if you don't I won't give it to you." One is a gift, the other is conditioned on earning/meriting. I think you're missing my point, but OK.

I understand that is the view you hold to. I am not sure I would for the reason I shared. Your view is the basic Catholic view. I really don't understand the matter. I didn't mean "I think free will exists". but that "it seems God wants us to freely choose to do things that please God--NOT...

I don't know if I agree with this distinction (because in either case your getting the reward depends on your actions), but I'm glad you mentioned "free will", because I believe this was a key thing God has told me in past times.

The devil prayed to God (as in Job) to ask Him if he could tempt the Lord, and God granted him his request to tempt the Lord.

To speak of an unbeliever as if they had a measure of faith would be like referring to a "married bachelor"--by dint of their constituent qualities, these things cannot be.

"Measure of faith" is something a believer has; if an unbeliever had a "measure of faith", they, ipso facto, would not qualify as an unbeliever.

Also I wouldn't think all men have a measure of faith. That verse refers to believers. Unbelievers don't have a measure of faith, or they would be pleasing to God (Heb 11), but they are not in the Spirit but in the flesh, thus not able to submit to God's Law and incapable of pleasing God (Ro 8).

Yes, the majority of believers I've interacted with have employed various ways of "understanding" Ro 2 that result in denying what is obviously being taught. I think that's their way of solving the same problem I'm having--but I'm not going to do that.

1. Yeah, but that doesn't solve my dilemma LOL 2. It is obvious from the text, so I didn't need anyone to teach me; that said, N.T. Wright, a well-known teacher, teaches, far and wide, that, indeed, these are believing Gentiles.

Yes, they are believing Gentiles--in other words, because they are living right by the power of the Spirit of Grace (Ro 6:14) they will be repaid eternal life, and, yet, Paul is warning the Jewish believers in the Roman Church that they are storing up wrath for themselves because of their...

It really is a mistake to think knowing God can be earned, though I'm not 100% certain how that "squares" with Romans 2, which says only "doers of the Law" will be justified and repaid eternal life when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Christ (Ro 2:6-16,26,27). I can't deny that...

For the time being, actually, I'm "over" the question. Thanks.