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The "payment" is only in Christ because Christ already endured the punishment--everyone outside of Christ is not enjoying that reality.

There are two "wrongs" a person can do: Not believe God forgives them for Christ's sake Not walk in love If I confess my sins God is faithful and righteous to forgive me and cleanse me of all unrighteousness.

Everything God does is good. Existing is not living. Just because the men are "existing" doesn't mean they have "eternal life", since "life" is a quality and "death" is a quality--today, men are "dead in sins", yet they are "existing", so "existing" in "torment" is not "life" (even if it was...

In my view, which I have not completely worked out, those who do not accept and walk by Christ will have to pay for their own sins. They owe God a debt of glory. "We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Jesus says "you will not get out of there until you have paid the uttermost...

Yeah, Isaiah 66 says "they will go forth and look upon the corpses of those who transgressed against me for their fire will not be quenched and their worm will not die"--they're "outside", too, and they're under God's wrath.

OK I thought you were finding fault in me.

If God has "faith", it is in His Word, and His Word tells us that only those who believe see life, whereas those who do not believe will not see life but remain under God's wrath. They "do not know God".

For those "in Christ", there is "no condemnation", but even if someone slips and does not remain in Christ, they're "condemned", so how are those who are not even in Christ at all not also "condemned"?

If "Christ will avail you nothing" (Gal 5:2), and Christ is how God saves, doesn't that mean Christ cannot save them?

I believe men still abide under God's wrath, that has been on men since Adam's sin, because people are still dead in sins apart from faith, and if men fall away from faith, they are under God's severity. So it is clear that faith is the way to be in God's kindness, and unbelief is the way to...

"Continues a discussion as to why"? OK See ya

God's indignation with Israel for Israel's sins falls on Israel, but that does not mean He is not wrathful with other men for their sins.

The wrath has been upon men since Adam--ie, the sentence of spiritual death, and the manifold curses (some stipulated in the Law--the Law was revealed to Israel, but it is at work in the world).

Yes, and if you back up a little in Romans 6, you'll see the "gift of eternal life IN CHRIST JESUS" is because "IN CHRIST JESUS" we have the gift of "slavery to righteousness"--the fact that righteousness is a gift is what turns eternal life into a gift. However, this is only "IN CHRIST JESUS"...

There is a coming wrath/severity, but there is a wrath/severity that men are already under Psalm 90 9For all our days pass away under your wrath; we bring our years to an end like a sigh. John 3 36The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not [m]obey the Son will...

I have some stuff I have to do. I'll be back later.

Well, they are in the Word, but they are misinterpreting the Word because of their teachers--that is why I am raising those topics they are missing.

The "severity" is the "curse" and spiritual "death" that results from unrighteousness--by not "being found in Him not having a righteousness of my own from the Law but having a God's righteousness from faith in Christ" (Php 3:9).

Yes, it is being "missed" by those who disagree with my position.

Yes, and Israel had a dynamic that people could be "cut off from among their people" for certain sins that is still at play today--here, we see that people are "grafted in" by "faith", and "cut off" for "unbelief", so if Paul is "disqualified" from the "race" of "faith", then he is in...