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"it has contaminated heaven also" :eek: uh oh, look out, the very notion of heaven being contaminated with sin is absurd to most Christians. They know more about heaven than whats written in Gods word apparently. They forget that Jesus Christ died for the whole creation, not just humanity.

Perhaps. :) "we won't get to heaven without Jesus" Ok, here is the deal. I suggest you go get "caught up in the spirit" and ask God how Moses and Elijah got to heaven without the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. You claim to have a personal one on one relationship with him, so I'm being...

You wouldn't have Satan if it wasn't possible, much less a "war in heaven", as is prophesied to occur. What is truly absurd are most Christians assumptions about what they claim heaven really is, pretending to know more than what is written in Gods word.

Without Jesus Christ in the picture, it ain't gonna matter where you are. Sin is sin, whether its in heaven or earth. I made this quite clear before in my thread "Why the fall had to occur". Things are different now that sin has been atoned for and eradicated.

Where did I say that I don't believe him, and that his plan is 'flawed'??? :confused:

We're talking about the numerous bodily ascensions into this place called "heaven", so yes, I'm talking about the "flesh", or the body. What does behavior have to do with this??? Its irrelevant. There are a lot of people here and elsewhere that like to pretend to know how the spirit realm works...

Never would have thought that a simple question concerning the affairs in heaven would be seen as a lack of faith. "There is no flesh nor temptation in heaven" And yet, temptation started in heaven with Satan, the anointed cherub, so I would seriously reconsider this assumption. As far as...

:rolleyes:......*sigh*....good lord........Yes, the saints will be here with the wicked with Jesus until the end of the world, which doesn't even occur until after the 1,000 year reign. Nothing you quoted disproves the pre-seven vials rapture that Jesus Christ plainly refers to later in the book...

You see, this is why I don't often bother with people who refuse to see the obvious, who will prefer to 'spiritualize' every single detail making the word of God of no effect. When Paul states on no uncertain terms that the saints will meet God in the sky, they will STILL twist this and reduce...

Well, that was the point I was making. You claimed his dwelling place, or his "house" will stay in heaven when it states the exact opposite. Immediately after the throne judgement, "God" himself along with his dwelling place, "the tabernacle" descends from heaven in new Jerusalem. You should be...

According to who, you? The only teaching I have stay completely to is the teachings of Jesus Christ and the word of God. The only one doing the twisting is you. Well.......its not. You are referring to the pre-tribulation rapture, of which there is no scripture to back up and is not at all...

Putting words in peoples mouths is the norm here. Where on earth did I ever say "secret rapture"? :confused:

No, just my anti-virus scanner detecting any attempts to infect my mind with malicious software, like the idea of an afterlife being "pagan" in origin. :rolleyes:

People will see what they want to see. I don't waste my time with people who refuse to see whats sitting right in front of them. There is nothing more you can do for them at that point.

My mind is not open, it is in fact closed. An open mind means that my Norton security system is down, allowing anything to just walk in uninvited to corrupt it.

Which is symbolic of earth, where those "peoples", "nations", and "tongues" reside. You can dance around this simple fact all you wish. I don't care, your mind was already made up before you got here. :rolleyes:...........Jesus Christ is the foundation of my teaching, I know of no other.

Well we know that Jesus Christ descends from heaven to rule during the millennial period. The Father himself makes an appearance immediately after this period, sitting on his throne to judge those of the second Resurrection. His me're appearance on the scene causes both heaven and earth to pass...

I know exactly where it came from, the Bible. I don't know where you got that I said anything about movies. I guess you just see and hear what you want to see and hear.

The only person I know that "invented" the rapture "theory" is Jesus Christ, which means it is not a "theory" at all. I don't know of some guy you or anyone else may claim allegedly "made it up" out of thin air, and I really don't care. The word of God is quite clear all on its own on what...

Rev 12:17 speaks of Israel during the Great Tribulation. The saints are clearly still here at this point. As for Rev 14:12, the verses before and after clears the air, this goes for Rev 18:4 as well. Earth is the sea of glass: We won't be on the earth at this point, we will be standing on...