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I know one thing Aspen, this twisted belief people have about Romans 13 somehow being about subjecting yourself to Donald Trump or Kim Jong Un would fit fatalism to an absolute T. Its heresy to the core.

Yeah, it sure isn't Job, when taken into proper context of the previous and succeeding chapters you will see that its all about the church and its ministers chosen by God, not Donald Trump.

In the king James version it says pay "tribute", not taxes. A tribute can just as easily be referring to paying your tithes to the church. You shouldn't need a link to understand that simple observation. :rolleyes: I wouldn't actually, because I DO understand it, better than you at least.

You know what, in reading chapters 12 and 14, I now admit I was wrong, not for the reasons you have given, but in assuming that these higher authorities spoken of by Paul is actually speaking of governments at all, which means that we are all wrong about it. Its another shining example of how...

I have addressed it once before and I'll say it again. In context, the scriptures speak of how a christian is to conduct themselves in a civil manner. However, the term "civil manner" goes both ways. If you believe Kim Jong Un is a "minister of God" for your own good, then I have a bridge I can...

An emoticon is your proof..............well......................ok!!!!! .

Now where did I say that? Of course he has an influence, that doesn't make Donald Trump a "minister of God". That is an insult to my intelligence and to the faith itself.

You can believe whatever you want, I don't have to take it seriously if you can't back it up with scripture. The only mediator between the Father and his creation that I know of is Jesus Christ.

If the subject of the verses in question aren't about the "trinity", "incarnation", "revival", or whatever else you want to add onto it, then your argument is nothing less than a logical fallacy. You are the one claiming that those verses are calling us all to be "co-redeemers", so that burden...

.........Yes, if God didn't want him there, he wouldn't be, because those in authority are chosen as his 'ministers'........

I don't see the word "redeemer" in any verse you have cited thus far. That title is reserved for Jesus Christ only.

I'd go with the latter

If that's how Catholics see such verses, if that's how they define "love covers a multitude of sins", then its no wonder why many of them pray to Mary, and why they have priests who call themselves "father". False interpretations galore. If I need any other redeemer than Jesus Christ like...

Peter's love covers a multitude of HIS sins, not my sins because Peter is not responsible for my own personal salvation, I am when it comes down to it. But regardless, that still doesn't answer my question. My question is am I saved in the name and authority of Mary?

Well, I wouldn't say there is no comparison. I see Trump as just business as usual.

I guess some people believe that the white house is "the house of God". Who gets elected must be so important.

Is Mary co-redeemer?

Would the country have been so much better off under Hillary? I supported neither candidate or party, because I consider politics to be a distraction in of itself. I'm just wondering.

Where what? Where does it state Jesus baptized the apostles?

And lets not forget that they were first called Christians, not Catholics or protestants.