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Agree, but scripture ALSO also says we ARE in the Spirit if we HAVE the Spirit. That is the part that is being denied. All who believe (genuine faith not of our own) have the Spirit and therefore are in the Spirit to some degree.....and many do have spiritual experiences at various times if it...

My post evoked a strong reaction from you. And the main body of it is being ignored. Many in the church are offended and reject it these days, in favour of world pleasing politically correct versions. I will try to explain. Your post seems to be leaving the door too wide open.......implying...

That's good if you aren't. It seemed to me that is what people were objecting to. What is the point you are making then? Do you agree with Epi that not yet fully matured believers are on the same footing as Jews under the old covenant?

All I know is that we can't make the old covenant equal to the new covenant.....it wasn't. The new covenant brought a sea change, a new and better paradigm. Episkopos says believers who are not "perfected" are on the same footing as the Jews under the old covenant. That is just very wrong...

Once again around here those beautiful scriptures and the point the poster was making with them is being ignored, distracted and deflected from by the picking of a fight about something else.

Are we not to have discernment then? We dont' always discern everything, but in time often more things become clear. And I'm not your judge, just that I understand more clearly what you believe. I haven't seen you talk much, so I didn't know where you were on certain things. Now I understand...

True, but neither can it be denied that the Holy Spirit wasn't given until after the death and resurrection (and ascension) of Christ. We as believers are not on the same footing as those under the old covenant. The new covenant is "something better" than the old. That's not anyone boasting...

All flesh meant both Jews and Gentiles..........and it does seem clear even from that verse that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was not part of the old covenant.

Yes..... God, and His heavenly realm exists outside of time.........the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world....but there is also the aspect of the "fullness of time"........Jesus didn't come until the fullness of time (as God appointed it)....I think it must be the same with...

Yes, amen.........what does it mean and why did the early church have to wait for Pentecost? The saints of old weren't filled....for them the fulfillment of their faith didn't come to them until after Jesus died and rose from the dead. The bible does say that "they without us would not be made...

Certainly agree with humility and not being presumptuous. But there are clear and specific reasons and lessons to learn from those examples you gave. Saul had directly disobeyed the Lord in showing mercy to someone God wasn't showing mercy to. (like when the Lord told me to stop praying for...

His mercy is chiefly in the form of the gospel.........which we are to share and offer to unbelievers, both good and bad (righteous or unrighteous). God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.......through the gospel. That the purpose of God according to election might stand....Rom 9.

Good point....I don't know what it means. I wonder why Jesus' disciples had to wait for Pentecost then?

Yes, the Holy Spirit was there I agree....but there is this scripture that leads me to think He could be "with" people, but not "in" them until after Christ and Pentecost: Jhn 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever...

Nope. God imputed/credited righteousness to them through faith. I think possibly they attracted the favour of God prior to that through their efforts to be righteous.....and/or it's because He chose and called them.

An unbeliever has no faith and no Holy Spirit........these things are foolishness to the perishing....foolishness to the natural man. It is Christ in me, the hope of glory. We start off with a new man....a new creature....new birth......new wine......the new covenant.. It is a gift and...

Job was before Christ. Believers under the new covenant have met Christ and so our starting point is on another level than the OT saints to begin with. Job serves as a pattern for us as do the other OT saints....our experience is not literally the same. Under the new covenant we have His...

At first glance she does seem new agey, but I wanted to make sure it wasn't just an impression based on superficial things like lingo and my own associations etc. I read most of her autobiography (some of it I just skimmed), but don't seem to have the time and mental stamina to look further...

Oh now I see why you asked.....I was borrowing and using Epi's own language loosely that he was using to accuse me of self-righteousness......to be precise I really should have said his scheme is "based on human righteousness" instead of saying it is based on self-righteousness.

No, it depends on what the writer or speaker means by it....whether they are talking about someone's own righteousness or the righteousness of Christ in the person (believer). I distinguish between the two....as the bible does. The difference between the old covenant and the new is that under...