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Nope. 'Measure,' is not synonymous with mere 'ability' to do anything, Behold. 'Measure' in 1 Corinthians 12:9, should be understood in the sense of 'amount,' or 'strength.' And this is the case with all the gifts of the Spirit there. Salvific faith is God-given assurance. I have said this...

I'm not "rationalizing" anything, Ronald. But yes, God's eternal decree, for sure. It is what it is. My intent is to make things clearer using everyday human terms, if you will, but still, it is what it is. Grace and peace to you.

Yes he is. We disagree. Some kind of faith, yes, but not faith from God, which is given only to Christians at the point they are born again of the Spirit, each in his own measure, according to God's will. This is what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 12. Now, that measure can increase, again...

Right, and he's speaking to Christians, so he's talking about Christians, not literally every person living, past, present, or future. Agreed, our belief is of ourselves, but in the new birth of the Spirit, He does give us a new spirit ~ He "removes the heart of stone from our flesh and gives...

But it is ~ or would be, anyway ~ God's will that because one is guilty of sin that he or she ~ if not born again of the Spirit, thus redeemed by Christ and therefore in Christ and clothed in His righteousness and unrepentant of that sin ~ be subject to the Father's perfect justice and the just...

Agreed. No need for all the... complications... <smile> ...that premillennialism, um, "offers." <smile> And it will be very short-lived, so much so that "Satan's little season," Christ's return and final defeat of Satan, and even including the final Judgement, while sequential and in that...

Sigh... Agree. Born again of the Spirit. Sure. Well, right, but we are not in eternity (the age to come) yet. But yes. God is the giver of faith, through which we are in Christ, and therefore have salvation and eternal life. I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make here, but at...

Agreed. But that does not mean they are no longer Christians, even though they may think for a time they are not. And if they are actually not, then they never were, even though they may have thought they were for... forty years, which is exactly what John is saying in 1 John 2:19... "(t)hey...

Continued from above... Absolutely. Yes, I see. I was blind, but now I see. See what I did there? <smile> Philippians 1:6. Yes, absolutely. But if this person is born again, he or she will not really lose his or her faith and go back into the world ~ though it may seem like it to him or...

Yes, but while unfortunate, this is irrelevant to me and you, right? Sure they are. Absolutely. Okay, not sure what you mean here; this too is irrelevant as it concerns this conversation between me and you. Sure. It's God's Word. All of it is important (to say the least). It is all...

The water baptism in churches is not equivalent to being born again of water and the Spirit (John 3:5). John himself said, "I baptize with water, but among you stands One you do not know, even He Who comes after me, the strap of Whose sandal I am not worthy to untie... He who sent me to baptize...

Absolutely. Absolutely not. The only reason I might "leave it out" is that it's a given, central to the Christian faith. I do think, though, that there are a few Nicodemuses on this board, and that's unfortunate. But yes, Jesus did say, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot...

Uh oh... <smile> Certainly, so wheat and tares alike... Well, yes, Jesus paid the wages of sin (death) on our behalf, and thus it is ~ and will be ~ as if we have not sinned, because Jesus's righteousness has been imputed to us and covers us now and in the final Judgment at the end of the...

What are you even talking about here, GB? LOL! Leaving the separating of the tares from the wheat to the Lord has nothing to do with us stopping societal violence and atrocities ~ and preserving life ~ when possible. Goodness gracious. Allowing the wheat and the tares to grow together is not...

The key is that little word 'in.' You and he, even by saying "in His kingdom," mean it in two very different senses. And, I think if you were to understand what he means by "in the kingdom," you would go, "Oh, well yeah." And the same is true if he understood the sense in which you are saying...

Dude. Any member of a particular church can fall under church discipline and possibly be excommunicated for various reasons. Yeah, we're talking about two different things now. Yes, to what you say here, but any member of a church can be excommunicated if the situation calls for that, meaning...

Fair enough. <chuckles> Okay, well I said or insinuated no such thing, and in fact quite the opposite. Right, which I acknowledged, but they may not remain so; they may be made children of the one true God. I think you are just missing each other, as I said. And here we go again, I guess...

Ugh. <smile> Well, I would take some issue ~ along the lines of what we have just discussed ~ that church A can't know for sure if people are "tares" or not, or, even if they are, will remain such. Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ (Romans 10:13), so I would...

Right... Yes, if they remain tares. And about that "throwing into the fire..." <smile> Right... And really, we don't know exactly who has been saved, either, in that we can't see the heart; only God can do that. Except for ourselves... this is what faith is... God's assurance, and the...