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  1. Butch5

    The Early Church And The Atonement

    The Early Church View of the Atonement The Early Church vs. the Modern Church The early church held to the Classic or Ransom view of the atonement. This was the view of the Western Church for the first 1000 years of church history, and it is still the view held by the Eastern Church. This...
    • Butch5
    • Blog entry
    • 24 min read
    • Comments: 1
    • Category: General
  2. Butch5

    Why Did Our Father Want Blood Sacrifices?

    Yes, God did ahve a plan and yes Christ did willingly die for man.
  3. Butch5

    Why Did Our Father Want Blood Sacrifices?

    The wages of sin is death, Christ could have simply died for sins. It was not necessary for Him to suffer and to be beaten beyond recognition. It was horrible in the way that He died. I agree that what Christ did was heroic, It was a beautiful thing that He did. I was simply referring to His...
  4. Butch5

    Why Did Our Father Want Blood Sacrifices?

    Hi Gumby, I can answer your question because I do not hold to the Penal model of the atonement which says that Christ died to pay our sin debt to God. Rather I hold to the Classic or Ransom view of the atonement in which Christ is seen as a conqueror and redeemer. You see the OT sacrifices...
  5. Butch5

    Election The Chosing Of God

    The wages of sin is deat, correct? If Christ paid a sin debt to God, why do believers still die? Spiritual death??? I haven't seen that in the Scriptures.
  6. Butch5

    Election The Chosing Of God

    OK, I see I phrased the question wrong, why do believers still die, if Christ paid the sin debt to God?
  7. Butch5

    Just Bought A New King James Version Today

    I also like Young's literal translation very much. I use the KJV for most of my NT study and the Septuagint for much of my OT study.
  8. Butch5

    Just Bought A New King James Version Today

    Why should we all read just the KJV when it contains errors like other translations? The NKJV is a good translation. One thing I would take note though is that in Genesis where Scriptures speaks of Abraham's descendants, the KJV translates it Abraham's seed. The word seed is singular.
  9. Butch5

    Election The Chosing Of God

    Hi Logabe, For the sake of discussion why not use the term command to describe God's commands other than the Mosaic Law? It seems to me that you are mixing the two. For instance, you spoke of Adam and the command God gave to him as a law, and then you are using quotes from Paul about the law...
  10. Butch5

    Why Did Our Father Want Blood Sacrifices?

    My friend I don't hold to that model model. Personally I believe the Penal substitution model causes a lot of the problems in Christianity. I also don't follow what the reformers said, because personally I think they had as much wrong as the Catholics that they were trying to reform. Kind of...
  11. Butch5

    Why Did Our Father Want Blood Sacrifices?

    OK, but where does Scripture tell us that God cannot be in the presence of sin or that He cannot tolerate it. I know that is taught a lot of the time. I myself have been told that, however, I have not seen anything in Scripture that would indicate this. As a matter of fact I was told a lot over...
  12. Butch5

    Election The Chosing Of God

    Agreed. however, they did not have "The Law". They had commandments that God gave them and they probably knew right and wrong, but it was "The Law" that was the basis for sin. Paul clearly says that even though they did not have "The Law" they suffered the consequences of sin but the guilt of...
  13. Butch5

    Why Did Our Father Want Blood Sacrifices?

    Why do you assume the choice was to please or displease the Father? Where does Scripture say Christ was required to do this? You see the error comes along with the Penal model of the atonement which was brought into the church by the reformers. Matthew 9:10 ( KJV ) And it came to pass, as...
  14. Butch5

    The Holy Trinity

    I'm glad to hear you do not think that they are different. I see you are at the other end, however, we are back where we started, Jesus cannot be the Father. How cold the Son be His own Father or the Father be His own Son? You said, 1 Timothy 6:13-16 ( KJV ) I give thee charge in the sight...
  15. Butch5

    Election The Chosing Of God

    My point is not about a command, The argument that Logabe is using is concerning "The Law". "The Law" did not exist until it was given to Moses. It is "The Law" that is the standard that the Jews were judged by. Consider Paul 's words. Romans 5:12-14 ( KJV ) Wherefore, as by one man sin...
  16. Butch5

    Election The Chosing Of God

    Well, I have few more questions for you. 1. Paul said that the Gentiles were not under the law. Romans 2:14 ( KJV ) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: That would mean that...
  17. Butch5

    Election The Chosing Of God

    Hi Logabe, I understand what you are saying, It is just that I disagree. You keep speaking of a law yet there was no law. You are calling God's command to Adam a the law, I haven't even seen Scripture do this. Also, where does Scripture tell us that Adam "inherited" the earth. He was placed in...
  18. Butch5

    Why Did Our Father Want Blood Sacrifices?

    The statement "this is my Son, in Him I am well pleased" was not saying that God was pleased with Christ's death. Regarding Gethsemane, and Jesus statement, God did not refuse to take away the cup, Christ said, thy will be done. If God Was unwilling to take away the cup then Jesus statement here...
  19. Butch5

    The Hypocrisy Of False Expressions

    Hi Juggyfly, I noticed in your post that there are false teachings mixed among you other statements. I believe that is the reason for the seeming contradictions.
  20. Butch5

    Why Did Our Father Want Blood Sacrifices?

    The impression that God was pleased with Christ's death. Is that how you see it? If so why?
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