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If we agree, then that is good.

"Death reigned even over those who did not sin in the manner of Adam [transgress]". Paul says there is a group "under Law", and there is a group "without Law"; you deny that. The problem is not mine.

OK Well I guess our discussion has run its course; I trust your vanity will be evident to readers.

There is a group that is "under Law", and there is a group that is "without Law" : not all men were "under Law". Period.

With or without the Law, men died for sinning, so your entire false argument is moot : men die because of sin, even all the hundreds of years prior to the giving of the Law (which you vainly claim is needed to "define" men as sinners--then you want to use this vain false logic to claim...

Whether or not men are "under Law" is irrelevant with respect to whether or not they have to pay the price for sinning (ie, death)--Gentiles, who were "without Law", died bc of sin, and Christians, who are "not under Law" will die if they walk in sin, even if you wanted to claim the Law could no...

Nope : Paul describes a group that is "under Law" (the Jews), and he describes another group that is "without Law" (non-Jews). It really is quite a simple conclusion to arrive at : it is not possible that all men are "under Law", since there is a group that is "without Law". "Not sure" why you...

Nope : sin was in the world, and death reigned over the sinners (men died), even though they did not have the Law. Or do we have a record of men not dying in the many hundreds of years before the Law of Moses was given? Now, again, the fact that men died because they were sinners even before the...

I don't at all deny these things; I also think it is a possibility that a person could be trusting in their own righteousness. However, I don't think it is vital to your topic, so you shouldn't feel obligated to address it. I think I see that we do not agree--you have a view, and I have a view...

You haven't addressed anything I've said, you've merely done what you've claimed I've done--ie, posted your cherry-picked verses and shared your anti-Scriptural thoughts. What I have done is I have met your claims head-on, and what you have done is you have refused to address my objections. I...

I deny that all men were under Law before grace. The reason is Paul describes two groups of people : those under Law, and those without Law. I have shown you the Scriptures to this effect, and I await even the recognition of this fact, and, from there, I will await an actual justification for...

Romans 5 13For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14NEVERTHELESS, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come. Therefore, as stated...

1 I don't know if I am a Gentile, bc we come from theJews who fled Iberia, and my grandmother told me her grandfather told her, on his deathbed, his secret that he was a Jew (it had to be kept secret back then in that place). 2. If you want to dispute what I've claimed from Scripture, the...

The point is not that the Law does not require spiritiual good things, just that It is not the means of service, but grace is the means, in the New Covenant--"God's righteousness apart from the Law", not our own righteousness by the Law, and the Law's righteous requirements are fulfilled in us...

No doubt, just saying it may be that people can treat the commands found in the Gospels and Epistles the same way as the Law and the error and result may be the same.

No, when Paul argues that we are not under Law, he describes the works of the Law as that through which we come to know sin, and he then says he would not have known what it was to covet had the Law not said "thou shalt not covet", so when he comes to know sin of coveting through the Law, that...

OK The issue with being "under the Law" is that it is a righteousness of one's own, being that it emanates from the flesh (Ro 8:3; Gal 3:3), so isn't it also possible that someone could try to do the commands we all think apply to us in the New Covenant in our own power, apart from grace, as well?

Irrespectively (it's not really the point)... I just wondered what the difference would be or if someone could be "under the Law" in a sense in seeking to obey all of these commands just as if he tried to obey the commands in the Law.

No, by "New Testament", I mean all of those writings that are included in the compilation we Christians have come to call "The New Testament".

Are you disputing it? Why not address the text if so? Speaking about the idolatrous nations, who know God NOT by special revelation, but by general revelation (vv17+), he explains, "32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they...