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@GodsGrace I think we all look for certainty, because that really gives us peace--the difference we are having is I am willing to recognize my certainty (and peace) can't come from 100% wholesale incurious unquestioning faith in the ECFs, because they made errors (as I've proven). You...

Irenaeus made a mistake. Are you saying JESUS taught Mary was the new Eve and taught His disciples that? I reject that--based on Scripture which proves no one but the Church could be the New Eve, and Paul draws the connection himself (2 Co 11:3). Why would you draw me away from the Apostolic...

They make errors, too. Irenaeus claimed Mary was the new Eve... when only the Church could be. Adam was MARRIED to Eve. The "Last Adam" is married to the Church! She is the "Last Eve" or "New Eve" if there is one. And Paul even says so (2 Co 11:2). Yet the CC went ahead and put it in their...

Thanks. i generally prefer to go straight to the text, and wrestle with the texts--if they wrestle with the texts (not just give one-sided analyses, but address why people have questions, and give real solutions).

Lol! I have had serious questions about it myself! Aren't we allowed to be open to respecting the text, and going wherever truth leads us? (I'm leaning heavily toward Jesus being God, though I still have questions.) You SHOULDN'T accept what you consider to be incorrect doctrine!

Who said you should accept incorrect doctrine? Or do I accept it? No, this is a place of discussion where people disagree, and share their reasons for why they disagree.

To varying degrees, yes--based on His Word. In Marks's mind, he is wanting people to trust God in a particular sense, based on what He thinks God's Word is on this matter. Why can't you accept that? Or can you? Such a thing could be the case... and I've also been to the local Church of the...

In his mind, it is to lead people to trust God. Well, that's the whole discussion, so you can't, as part of the discussion, accuse someone of having bad motives or intentions, and then cite their position as proof of your accusation : a. It's sort of circular reasoning. You know he denies the...

Motives and intentions are basically synonymous--his motive is what is driving him, and his intentions concern the outcome of his motives and work toward those ends. For "led astray" to be a substantive danger, it has to be "astray from the Lord", but, again, Peter was not "astray" ("away from...

But the whole issue was you said he had bad intentions-if you're now saying you don't think that anymore, then good. Yeah, I agree with you that OSAS is inaccurate, but I don't think God requires 100% accuracy for people to know Him or to lead people to Him. Peter, himself, for years after the...

:100:

I give serious consideration to everything people say--how else could I give a satisfactory response (whether positive or negative--satisfactory to me, anyway)? That said, I really believe you are trying to help people, and I really think you are doing your best to serve the Lord, and I really...

I don't know your psychology, or how things work in your mind, but I don't need to feel better about myself on this issue.

But his intention is to have people trust God.

I can't change how you view it. I am 100% honest about everything I said there. I was trying to get her to see that you really don't have evil intentions. Difficult.

Even though I am gobsmacked that anyone could actually make the decisions to shape their minds into the shapes Marks shapes his mind into, I wouldn't say his motives are not good, and it is not good for anyone to say his motives are not good. He simply reads differently than we do. As hard as it...

Right, so it just puzzled me why you began with "No", in that case--I was trying to figure out why you had begun with "no" (maybe you had gotten "refuted" mixed up with "refused"--apparently not).

So, the long and the short of it was that I agreed with you on OSAS was unbiblical and not apostolic--and we know this because the only place it ever appeared in early church history was among the gnostics, whom the Church declared heretics, and that, strikingly, OSAS began to appear in the...

I'm just saying they exist.

Yeah, in the preceding verses, the imperatives "seek the things that are above... set your affections on the things that are above not on earthly things"--this is not something all, or even most, Christians do. Not having affections for things of the earth, but for heaven, is not the norm with...