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They "believed"... yet, they "believed" in an invalid way... lending itself to the doctrine that "they went out to prove they were never of us".

The intent was to discuss the fact that the idea that faith can be valid faith or invalid faith (true or false)--which, to me, had never been proven Scripturally, but seemed to merely have been baselessly asserted--actually has Scriptural bases.

No, you're not tanking the thread, I'm just trying to readjust it.

Well, when you dismiss the other doctrines, yeah, how else am I to interpret what you're doing? Again, I failed to produce the kind of conversation I'd wanted here bc of the preface I included in the OP opening. Lol

I really wanted this thread to be about true and false faith in John's Gospel, not about justification by faith or by works. Sorry for their confusion. I've made two threads now that have failed to start the kind of conversatioms I've wanted.

Clarification: there are other justification doctrines in Scripture.

You're very keen on discussing this snippet, as if it represented the whole of doctrine on the subject. If only that were the case.

I don't know how to be any clearer. There is no right or wrong answer, because I'm not asserting that predestination is or is not anything--I'm simply asking users to share their opinions. I'm not going to be responding to this sort of reply from you again. What I'm asking for is not unclear...

I'm not "proving" anything, I'm just reviewing others' opinions.

So, basically, the Biblical doctrine of predestination doesn't affect, isn't brought to bear upon, your life, either one way or the other?

This is the sort of answer I was looking for in this discussion.

Predestination is in the Bible. I'm only asking WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS, not asking that you agree with Calvin on its interpretation.

Whatever "The Word says" is the "teaching" or "doctrine". Yeah, I'm aware of this doctrine, but I'm also aware of other justification doctrines.

OK I'm asking what each user thinks predestination is, and how your view of predestination is brought to bear upon, shapes, your daily life (if at all). If a doctrine doesn't shape our daily lives, do we really believe it?

Just a quick tangent (don't want this to take the discussion over): this calls to mind the Israelites who, during their wilderness wanderings, wanted to go back to Egypt.

I renamed the thread so it better reflects the conversation I was wanting to have. Apologies for the confusion the previous naming had caused.

Yeah, thanks to various "Ligonier" teachers, I'm aware of this justification doctrine. I wonder if you're aware of the justifications taught in Romans 2:6-16 (eschatological), or in 14:5,23 (moment to moment)? Or the fact that James says you're not justified by faith alone but by both having...

I renamed the thread. It should readjust the conversation.

I really wanted this discussion to revolve around predestination--how people of differing persuasions define the Biblical concept, and what it means for how Christians live their lives. I probably misnamed the thread. Lol How does predestination shape your day to day walk?

I really don't want to get into a debate/discussion on OSAS, just on the definitions (and implications of those definitions) of "predestination".