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Hi Charity. So the NT Christians say water was involved. The historical writings from the 1st century Christians, who walked and talked with the Apostles, say water was involved but you say water wasn't involved. Now I am in a dilemma. Should I believe them our you?

Soooo I should trust YOUR oral tradition and interpretation but no one else's? Fascinating...

It does!

I can see where that makes sense.

OK.....So your interpretation, 2,000 years later, is that Jesus didn't mean water baptism in John 3:5!! You rely on you to properly interpret Scripture. I suspect you don't know Aramaic or Greek or Latin for you to properly translate it into English so I think I can safely presume you are...

How about we do this David. You present to me the earliest teaching from the church that John 3:5 does NOT mean baptism with water and I will produce for you the earliest teaching that it does mean water? Maybe we will both learn something! Deal?

If anything on your website contradicts the Apostolic Fathers....whom should I believe? You or them? Curious Mary BTW....I didn't KNOW it was your website...I presumed it. I'm sure it takes a lot of your time and WORK!

Fascinating.....you quote yourself to prove yourself right!!!

I can see where I implied that so let me be clear: Jesus taught the Apostles. The Apostles taught the Apostolic Fathers. The Apostolic fathers taught the Church Fathers. If you care to take the time you should read what the Church Fathers had to say and then you will know the Truth.

No, not because I said so. Logic says so!! This discussion isn't about non-believers getting into heaven kiddo. It is about good works. Atheist do good works; just like Christians. The only difference is Christian's are REQUIRED to do good works because faith without works is dead...

Wow....that link you provided is pretty solid evidence you are right. I believe you and not the Apostolic Fathers. You have changed my mind. Is that your website David?

Yup....and your idiotic 500 year teaching invented by men trumps the 2,000 year teaching of the men who lived closest to the time of Christ ....that makes sense o_O Hmmm....who should I trust? Men that lived in the 1st century or the men that lived in the 16th century? TOUGH DECISION!!

Once again you have spouted a 500 year teaching of men. The Bible never describes natural birth as being “born of water.” Jesus describes natural birth as being “born of flesh” (John 3:6). Maintaining that being born of water is natural birth would make little sense in this passage. CLEARLY...

Really? NO atheist do good works? I know some atheist and the do more good works then some Christians I know soooooo that blows your theory out of the water!! Thank you for your time.

Well, it is 2,000 years of nonsense then because that has been the teaching of Christianity for 2,000 years. Your teaching is 500 years old :( What is TRUE nonsense is that just before that statement in John 3 (one must be born of water and Spirit) Jesus is baptized with water and the Spirit...

You didn't answer the question: Are there no good atheist?

How do you get buried with Him in baptism?

When you read 1 Peter 3:21 in context it is clearly referring to water.

Being good is a consequence of salvation? Are there no good atheist?

YOU say baptism doesn't save anyone but Scripture says opposite: 1 Peter 3:21. He told us to baptize and be baptized. Obeying Christ saves us also. If we don't obey Him, we are not saved. All these passages are not mutually exclusive. One does not cancel out the other. They are two sides...