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You are not paying attention to what I'm saying. It isn't only in heaven as the following passages show: Hebrews 12:18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that...

Tell that to your straw man. I never said in any way, shape or form that Revelation 20:9 isn't talking about things happening on earth.

Where did I say otherwise? I didn't. Did you miss my reference to Hebrews 12:18-22? Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which...

Unbelievable! If I told you 1 + 1 = 2, you would find some way to make it equal 3 because you will go out of your way to disagree with me no matter what I say. Are you kidding me?! So, you are the one who decides for everyone how the time of trouble should be understood? You are the one who...

The holy city in the book of Revelation is New Jerusalem (Rev 11:2, Rev 21:2), so that is the identity of the beloved city in that verse as well. For we have not come to the mount that can be touched, but rather to the heavenly Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...

The only verses that you have presented as being supposedly in support of a pretrib rapture have been shown clearly to support a post-trib rapture instead. If you have nothing else to present then I have no choice but to consider your belief to have been put 6 feet under, so to speak. You have...

Oh my. That's quite a sad story. :oops: :)

You can edit your original post and, even though I'm not Premil, I think you should just to be fair to Premils like Randy. It seems that you are arguing more against pre-trib dispensationalism than against premillennialism in general.

Does he think we are just going to take his word for it when he makes accusations like that? He doesn't back up his claims about scripture and also doesn't back up his claims about us. It's just pure dishonesty.

This is a serious accusation. What did he supposedly change? Show me.

You are pathetic. I do not claim that they are not alive at all, as you are implying here. I believe physically dead believers are spiritually alive in heaven. Just because you can't understand how the soul and spirit of a person can be alive without the body doesn't mean I'm saying they are...

Exactly. Both preterists and futurist premils are too extreme in their views and it causes them both to misinterpret a lot of what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse. Some premils resort to trying to claim that Jesus's answer to the first question the disciples asked is only recorded in Luke 21...

How can it be greater than the flood in Noah's day in how you understand what it means? Do you think there is going to be a future global event where even fewer than 8 people survive?

Whatever this might look like? If even you, a post-tribber, don't know what these things are about, how can pre-tribbers recognize it? Great tribulation involving what exactly? Please try to be more specific. How can any pretribber be convinced they are wrong by certain things that will...

I agree. It would be too late to start fleeing if the enemy has already taken over the temple, so Jesus had to be talking about Jerusalem as "the holy place" and not the temple. Once the city starts being surrounded then they would know its desolation is near. If the armies have already reached...

If one event is local and involves complete destruction on a local scale and another event is global and involves global destruction on a global scale, then is it not allowed for similar terminology to be used in relation to each event? I wouldn't think so. I wouldn't find it to be strange for...

And what do you mean by this exactly? Please describe exactly what you think will happen that will make them realize they were wrong.

LOL. Are you being serious or trying to be a clown? Of course I am not saying we literally become "divine walls and gates and buildings and streets". You are missing the symbolism there. Why do you take a book like Revelation that was purposely "signified" (Rev 1:1) so literally? We're talking...

Show us where it says one of the crowns of gold worn by the elders is the crown of life. As for kings and priests in heaven, how does that prove a pretrib rapture? Do you not know that we are kings and priests even now? Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the...

He wasn't talking about watching so that we would know exactly what hour He will come. Good grief. Like Paul in 1 Thess 5:1-6, Jesus talked about being ready spiritually for His coming so that He won't destroy us like He will destroy those who don't even believe that He is coming. Do you think...