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There are two doctrines of Penal Substitution. John Wesley's is right. Calvinism is wrong.

Context is everything. What is the verse before that one? That will show us the type of sin that Christ has taken away and in Him we cannot do (vs. 4, 5 and 9) 1 John 5:16-17 shows two types of sin. 1 John 3 is about the sins unto death. But we are still capable of the other type even while...

Maybe semantics, but I believe crucifixion is punishment. It certainly wasn't because Christ did anything wrong, so it was for us, not Himself. I believe Jesus took our place on the cross, once and for ALL. But there is always a condition.

I appear to be in the middle. I have no problem with believing that the blood spilled and the horrible crucifixion was our punishment He suffered for us. It is the false beliefs that come after that that I disagree with.

True!

I agree. We certainly are on the same page here. :)

For as long as we agree to His conditions of who from then on are we going to obey? Romans 6:16

I do not agree that the "whole" premise is false; just that it applies to present and future sins as well as past sins. There are "conditions" for us to remain out from under the wrath of God, because once cleansed of all past sins, the wages of sin is still death if we choose to continue in...

He finally did get into the Jordan and was healed.

Again, no corroborating Scripture. Just opinion.

Personally, I do believe that Jesus took our punishment for the sins of the whole world; that doesn't bother me. What I do not agree with is that Jesus took the punishment for us individually for the "future" sins we commit too as in the saying "past, present and future" sins. No where is that...

I know I'm late to the party and this is from page one. I have a question for you regarding this: The charges were dropped - we were acquitted. The wrath of God is only for the disobedient. We were cleansed of all sin. You say we then receive the righteousness of Jesus. Did Jesus sin? If we...

Hey, Steve, I thought I would read this thread. I have a question for you. You said: Which do you believe: 1. Jesus takes away our desire to sin. 2. Jesus takes away our punishment for the sins we keep committing? 3. Other - what?

Ignored.

Yes, free from SIN! Do you see any other topic in John 8:34-36?

You don't throw out the baby because it swallowed some bath water. Paul has allowed us to discern for ourselves by telling us that not everything he writes was inspired. You don't understand. In the same books that include his non-inspired opinions, are words of God. My goal is to have ALL of...

I scanned your post looking for a scripture. Not one. I'm not reading your vile. I just want to talk about Scripture. Again, GOOD BYE!

Again, I'm NOT rejecting anything. There is more in the EoB than that one verse on abortion. Just because MAN decided not to include the EoB does not mean that God didn't want it included. I obey God not man.

I always questioned it, but not any more. If you read my post I believe Jesus was talking about believing the Word of God and being born again of the Spirit. I no longer believe Jesus meant the womb or baptism, but everything to do with Himself. Or who knows - all of the above. LOL

Hi Mungo, This is not to give any apathy towards water baptism. Personally, I want to obey every command of God, and is the reason I wanted to get baptism right. So I've been baptized for different reasons 4 times. But the last one is the true one that I believe God honors. And if you believe...