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Now we have come full circle. This all started when Dave singled out the Holy Spirit as being the main focus of salvation and saving faith, even though Jesus stated it differently. God is One, but the order of things is not how Dave has been preaching it.

Say what [you will], but that is not the way He said it.

Indeed. But according to Christ, the Holy Spirit does not act on His own authority...salvation is given to Christ (after the Father draws whomever He chooses).

God is One. But let us not misrepresent what Jesus (the Author of our faith) said about who draws [all]. That is the context and the reason for my comments. Saying that the Holy Spirit alone is the requirement for saving faith...is wrong.

That is not the way that Dave said it, nor the way that I responded. But rather that it is the Father whom draws us, Jesus who is the Author (of our faith), and the Holy Spirit who equips us and helps us. It is the Father who draws us...not the Holy Spirit.

Dave, your statement above seems to be the hinge-point and error...like which came first the chicken or the egg. Much has been said in the scriptures about faith, but Jesus made the origin of salvation perfectly clear: John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;"...

I'm not sure I would consider us who have strength in Christ, the strongest, but rather the weakest - "the poor in spirit." By weakness we came out of the cold willingly once our fight was at an end. And though in grace I would be inclined to past out blankets to those still out in that cold, I...

It is important to realize that Paul wrote the seeds of the faith to be planted throughout all of the gentile world to the ends of the earth. In that particular "walk", he said that he "became all things to all people, that he might save some." He could have claimed, and it would have been true...

This too is not beyond our knowledge. There is but one day and time "that no one knows" but God, and yes, it occurs "7 years after", which is to say "after all things have been accomplished" or "in the end." And that date and time is just as the apostle Paul stated: "each in his own order." In...

Thank you Larry! My question was rhetorical, and then followed by an explanation of why and how both statements by Paul are true even though they would seem to be contradictory. My point was two-fold: 1) We followers of Christ cannot use the scriptures one against the other to make our own...

You cannot use one quote from Paul to argue against another quote from Paul. He said "caught up together", and also said, "each in his own order." But how can both be true? Your answer does not explain why, it only explains your own limited understanding, because you have only believed half of...

It is amazing that anyone who reads the bible would believe anything other than what it says...and it does not say there is to be a pre', or post', or any such mass rapture event at all. But it does say that each person departs this world "each in his own order." And that is the truth of it.

Back to the Original Post... The "absurdity of Pretarism" is not unique to Pretarism, but consistent among all who "observe days and months and seasons and years", i.e., times, or calendars in chronological terms...i.e., "the weak and beggarly elements" of this world. Who among us is not...

Dispies are not the issue, they're your issue. You have made yourself clear.

Oh...do be careful: Fantasizing = "image" Allegorizing = "parables" Spiritualizing = "God" ...that is, in "the plain meaning."

I have already told you the proper definition and significance of the term "Jew" in the context of Christ telling them they were of their father the devil. The point - His point, was that ALL who are born of the flesh...are born of the devil. Conversely, all who are born of God, are spirit. They...

Vex, your disdain has blinded you to the whole truth. The God-breathed scriptures do not agree with your position on Dispensationalism, for it is written: "the Jew first (and also to the Greek)." But more importantly, a complete and proper understanding tells us that the two groups are "the...

I do understand your heart, but much has been said of the heart being evil.

The difficulty here, is that mankind has trouble translating the eternal "same yesterday, today, and forever" non-time reality of God into their own time of unfolding revelation. You see...it is not when a thing is revealed that marks the correct time, but it is the non-time truth with God that...

I think I like it...but what are "Dispies?"