‘those that oppose themselves’

[farouk]

it is okay. Doubt I will understand. That is maybe why I struggle with concordances.


Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

No?

Well, there in Rev. 1.8 it's an intransitive verb or cupola; whereas the examples I gave were transitive, that is, there was an object to the verb: sometimes the actor of the verb will perform the action upon the object (in a transitive verb context) while other times the action is performed onto the subject of the verb.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I throw the ball, written in Greek, you can use the same words, but with different verb voices.

I throw the ball - in active voice, I'm throwing a ball away from myself.

I throw the ball - in passive voice, I'm thrown the ball from someone else.

I throw the ball - in the middle or reflexive voice, I throw the ball to myself.

So you can write the same words, but the different forms show who's doing the action, and towards whom.

So in this case, anti - against; tasso, to position or appoint, I think @Hidden In Him ; by the word we know this is to position against, by the voice we know that it's the person positioning themself against.

That's pretty good, yes.

Greek Middle voice is actually kinda complicated. It can take the form of the English reflexive verbs like you illustrated above, but also be translated in a way that is in effect an Active voice translation. For instance, in 2 Timothy 2:25 I gave, "In meekness instructing those who oppose [you]," but a more exacting Middle Voice translation would actually be, "In meekness instructing those who stand opposed." But "stand opposed to you" is implied, so to avoid confusion it is acceptable here to translate it almost as if it were an Active Voice transitive verb. Plus, the Middle and Passive Voices for many verbs are the exact same in Greek, which means you have to use discernment to know which one is meant.

Had no idea we'd see so much interest in languages today, but it's refreshing. I'm still far from knowing everything myself, but here's a good article on the Middle Voice for anyone interested:

The Middle Voice: Part I – Ancient Greek for Everyone

 

[marks]

That's pretty good, yes.

Greek Middle voice is actually kinda complicated. It can take the form of the English reflexive verbs like you illustrated above, but also be translated in a way that is in effect an Active voice translation. For instance, in 2 Timothy 2:25 I gave, "In meekness instructing those who oppose [you]," but a more exacting Middle Voice translation would actually be, "In meekness instructing those who stand opposed." But "stand opposed to you" is implied, so to avoid confusion it is acceptable here to translate it almost as if it were an Active Voice transitive verb. Plus, the Middle and Passive Voices for many verbs are the exact same in Greek, which means you have to use discernment to know which one is meant.

Had no idea we'd see so much interest in languages today, but it's refreshing. I'm still far from knowing everything myself, but here's a good article on the Middle Voice for anyone interested:

The Middle Voice: Part I – Ancient Greek for Everyone

I was suprised to come accross someone who specifically wasn't interested in the original language! KJV is it, which, a lot of what I like the KJV so much is it's simplicity in translating much of these sorts of things.

This example you bring up, it's an interesting one, and shows the specificity of the Greek. Yes, we understand it as being in opposition to the teacher, or the teaching, though the more literal translation, as you've said speaks to what they've done to themselves. They stood themself to oppose.

Not that they simply oppose something because they just happen to. They did that to themselves.

OK, a window into my interpretations . . .

Middle and Passive Voices for many verbs are the exact same in Greek,

I've always love the sound of "deponent" and "defective" verbs! But I thought to save that for another time!



Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

This example you bring up, it's an interesting one, and shows the specificity of the Greek. Yes, we understand it as being in opposition to the teacher, or the teaching, though the more literal translation, as you've said speaks to what they've done to themselves. They stood themself to oppose.

"Stood themselves opposed" is also decent. The similar verb used in 2 Timothy 2:25, ἀντιδιατιθεμένους, could likewise more exactingly be translated as "established themselves in opposition to," although that sounds a bit wordy, so "stood opposed" is simpler, easier to understand, and communicates the same thing.

But the KJV rendering of "opposing themselves" is problematic and confusing, as if the translators didn't spend quite enough time on it. I've heard of people "establishing themselves in opposition" to a point during a debate, but never to debaters somehow "opposing themselves," LoL. That would be like conceding defeat, waving a white flag in front of everyone, and saying, "You know what? I oppose myself. I'm off my cracker," Lol...

Tell you the truth, there are however a few people at this website I wouldn't mind seeing admit to it.

 

[marks]

"Stood themselves opposed" is also decent. The similar verb used in 2 Timothy 2:25, ἀντιδιατιθεμένους, could likewise more exactingly be translated as "established themselves in opposition to," although that sounds a bit wordy, so "stood opposed" is simpler, easier to understand, and communicates the same thing.

Wordy, but specific. That's the beauty of learning the Greek! What they wrote in a word we need 5 words to clearly state.

But the KJV rendering of "opposing themselves" is problematic and confusing,

I agree. While I love the KJV for it's simplicity in translating, this one, well, here's the thing. Knowing the underlying Greek, I can look at the KJV and know what I'm reading, and the wording matches to it. They oppose themselves, that is, they put themselves into opposition, so when I read it, I know that's what I'm reading, and the simplicity of the word order lets me remember that easily.

So the KJV, not always the easiest to work with, but I do like it best!

That would be like conceding defeat, waving a white flag in front of everyone, and saying, "You know what? I oppose myself. I'm off my cracker," Lol...

Tell you the truth, there are however few people at this website I wouldn't mind seeing admit to it.

A lot of questions I ask people are in hope that they will realize that they their argument runs against itself, with some internal inconsistency.

For myself, that's one of the big payoffs in Biblical debate for me, is when I may discover my argument is running against itself. Debating topics with smart people who disagree is a great sounding board!

I think more oppose themselves by their tone, word choice, ad hominems, innuendos, all that rot! You can have all knowledge, and understand all mysteries, but without love?

You know the rest.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The Middle Voice: Part I – Ancient Greek for Everyone

seems important. Reminds me of the on going debate over salvation: ‘I move the car.’ ‘The car was moved’ ‘I moved myself’

‘He frees my horse.’ Or... ‘I free (my own) horse.’

The Middle Voice

Introduction

So far, all verbs that we have discussed have been in the ACTIVE VOICE. In this lesson, we introduce the MIDDLE VOICE. Voice, you will recall, indicates the role that the subject plays in the action of the verb.

• ACTIVE VOICE: The subject causes the action.
  • I move the car.
• PASSIVE VOICE: The subject receives the consequences of the action.
  • The car was moved.
• MIDDLE VOICE: The subject is part or all of the action. In other words, the subject is both the cause and the focus, the agent and experiencer, of a verbal action.
  • I moved (myself).

Verbs in the MIDDLE VOICE are extremely common in Greek, and appear in most Greek sentences. A clearer picture of how the MIDDLE VOICE works can be seen if we compare it to the other two voices.



Active vs. Middle Voice:

To see the distinction that Greeks made between the ACTIVE and MIDDLE VOICE in transitive verbs, let’s consider the following example. Say you have a horse. If someone frees or unties your horse, then the verb is in the ACTIVE VOICE in Greek:

• λύει τὸν ἵππον μου.
  • He frees my horse.

But if you untie your own horse so that you can ride it, this would be in the Greek MIDDLE VOICE:

• λύομαι τὸν ἵππον.
  • I free (my own) horse.

 

[Hidden In Him]

seems important. Reminds me of the on going debate over salvation: ‘I move the car.’ ‘The car was moved’ ‘I moved myself’

‘He frees my horse.’ Or... ‘I free (my own) horse.’

About that, I would say He's the One who freed my horse, but by submitting myself to the Spirit, I'm the one who has to ride him home.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

About that, I would say He's the One who freed my horse, but by submitting myself to the Spirit, I'm the one who has to ride him home.

lol

love Luke 19:30-34 Saying, Go ye into the village over against you ; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. [31] And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him ? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. [32] And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them. [33] And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? [34] And they said, The Lord hath need of him.

 

[Hidden In Him]

lol

love Luke 19:30-34 Saying, Go ye into the village over against you ; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. [31] And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him ? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. [32] And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them. [33] And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? [34] And they said, The Lord hath need of him.

"Thank God Almighty, Free at last!" LoL!

You have quite the encyclopedic mind, sister. Thanks for the laugh : )

 

[Davy]

2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, [25] In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; [26] And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Acts 18:4-6 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. [5] And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. [6] And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

What does it mean they oppose themselves?

It's only from 2 Greek words. The KJV translators added the "themselves" pronoun. The Greek simply means 'to go against'. In this case, they were against Paul's doctrine. And that's why Paul responded with their blood be upon their own heads.

 

[quietthinker]

2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, [25] In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; [26] And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Acts 18:4-6 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. [5] And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. [6] And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

What does it mean they oppose themselves?

I would see it as meaning the very essence of the Hebrew economy was Jesus in types and symbols and here they were with the reality present in their time and yet they rejected it.

 

[Enoch111]

What does it mean they oppose themselves?

People resist the things which are revealed in Scripture. But many actively oppose God's truths and attack the Bible and Bible doctrine. Also, when they pervert the Gospel or other things in Scripture, that is a form of opposition.

 

[icxn]

@Hidden In Him, your Greek is good.

Now, what is wrong with this:

But if you untie your own horse so that you can ride it, this would be in the Greek MIDDLE VOICE:

λύομαι τὸν ἵππον.
I free (my own) horse.​

 

[DPMartin]

oppose and contrary ...are they similar?

Acts 26:9-10 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. [10] Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

that is a completely unrelated text.

 

[farouk]

Wordy, but specific. That's the beauty of learning the Greek! What they wrote in a word we need 5 words to clearly state.



I agree. While I love the KJV for it's simplicity in translating, this one, well, here's the thing. Knowing the underlying Greek, I can look at the KJV and know what I'm reading, and the wording matches to it. They oppose themselves, that is, they put themselves into opposition, so when I read it, I know that's what I'm reading, and the simplicity of the word order lets me remember that easily.

So the KJV, not always the easiest to work with, but I do like it best!


A lot of questions I ask people are in hope that they will realize that they their argument runs against itself, with some internal inconsistency.

For myself, that's one of the big payoffs in Biblical debate for me, is when I may discover my argument is running against itself. Debating topics with smart people who disagree is a great sounding board!

I think more oppose themselves by their tone, word choice, ad hominems, innuendos, all that rot! You can have all knowledge, and understand all mysteries, but without love?

You know the rest.

@marks (c.c. @Hidden In Him @VictoryinJesus ) Maybe a paraphrase if not a strict translation would be "those who squirm to defend inherited, vested positions and interests"...

 

[Hidden In Him]

@Hidden In Him, your Greek is good.

Now, what is wrong with this:

But if you untie your own horse so that you can ride it, this would be in the Greek MIDDLE VOICE:

λύομαι τὸν ἵππον.
I free (my own) horse.​

I'm going to have to admit I'm not sure I understand the question, icxn.

 

[icxn]

I'm going to have to admit I'm not sure I understand the question, icxn.

The explanation is wrong. It is true for the active voice, i.e. λύω τὸν ἵππον (I free the horse). If I am the one suffering the action of the verb, i.e. if it is in middle voice (λύομαι τὸν ἵππον) then the meaning is that I'm being loosed of the horse (by my own action).

 

[Hidden In Him]

The explanation is wrong. It is true for the active voice, i.e. λύω τὸν ἵππον (I free the horse). If I am the one suffering the action of the verb, i.e. if it is in middle voice (λύομαι τὸν ἵππον) then the meaning is that I'm being loosed of the horse (by my own action).

Well, suffering the action of the verb would be passive, but there are instances when Middle ends up carrying more of an Active sense. I think that's what the article is saying when they use the following illustrations:

Finally, for some Greek verbs, there can be an important distinction in meaning between the ACTIVE and MIDDLE VOICES (S 1728, 1734). For example:

• αἱρέω in the ACTIVE: I take
  • in the MIDDLE: I choose
• σταθμάω in the ACTIVE: I measure
  • in the MIDDLE: I calculate
• σκοπέω in the ACTIVE: I look at
  • in the MIDDLE: I consider
• πορεύω in the ACTIVE: I carry
  • in the MIDDLE: I march, go
• λανθάνω in the ACTIVE: I escape notice of
  • in the MIDDLE: I forget

But keep in mind, my Greek is still a long ways from perfect. I'd love to study it more, but I'm not sure it will ever be in the cards for me to ever master it. But it still doesn't hurt studying things.

 

[icxn]

Well, suffering the action of the verb would be passive, but there are instances when Middle ends up carrying more of an Active sense. I think that's what the article is saying when they use the following illustrations:

We call that διάθεση. Πάσχω for example has a passive sense even though it is in active voice. Κήδομαι on the other hand has an active sense even though it is not in active voice. As for λύω, the voice and the sense are in agreement.

Anyway... back to your regular programming.

 

[Hidden In Him]

We call that διάθεση. Πάσχω for example has a passive sense even though it is in active voice. Κήδομαι on the other hand has an active sense even though it is not in active voice. As for λύω, the voice and the sense are in agreement.

Anyway... back to your regular programming.

LoL. That's excellent. I'm understanding your previous post a little better then.

So how do we know which verbs are Middle with Passive sense or Middle with Active sense? Memorization? I'm guessing there's a chart somewhere...

While I have you then, let me ask you something I have always wondered about: I sometimes leaned towards defining Middle Voice using the word become, as in to "become loosed from," to distinguish true Middle voice from to "be loosed from" which reads like passive, and "loose myself from" which reads more like active. What do you think?