“The Knowledge of Sin”

[Randy Kluth]

The repentance that God accepts, is not to "repent of being a sinner".

Its to repent of being an unbeliever.

To turn from (Repent from) UNBELIEF... .and turn to BELIEF. (Faith in Christ).

Thats "Repentance" that is accepted by God as "Faith is counted as righteousness".

You're either splitting hairs or coming up with a new doctrine. Yes, we're justified by faith in Christ. But to divorce that from repentance or from a choice to depend on Christ's works is unscriptural. We'll have to agree to disagree, but I don't personally think it's anything worth arguing over.

To repent is not necessarily self-justification. It certainly can represent a form of self-justification for those who repent apart from dependence upon Christ. But for those who properly turn to Christ for Salvation, repentance is truly an expression of faith in Christ, in order to be justified by his redemption.

 

[Behold]

You're either splitting hairs or coming up with a new doctrine. Yes, we're justified by faith in Christ. But to divorce that from repentance or from a choice to depend on Christ's works is unscriptural.

You have shifted your entire original "Here is James teaching us what we must do so that Christ will save us to begin with"... to this vague redefining of your original statements.

So, now you are trying to say that we dont have to commit to a "be like Christ lifestyle" before God will give us the new birth?

Come now and spin some more and flip some more and re-direct some more as its always interesting, during the last year when you cone to me and post...... to watch you shift to a new position with respect to what you will believe next., and teach next time.

Randy.....You are obviously one of those believers who has "tried many theologies", "tried many denominations"... as if they are the next experiment in what to believe.... next.

 

[Netchaplain]

Also, its simply silly to state that the next time you commit a carnal deed, it was not "willful", as in fact, it will be.

I see it that sin for the Christian is never intended but impulsively committed. I wouldn't think a believer would want to sin, though he knows he will, because of possessing the old man. I believe one who is professing to be saved, and sins intentionally and plans on sinning, probably isn't saved. It's our sin nature, that does the sinning, not the new "I" (Ro 7:17, 20).

The point is now that for the believer, sin is never "presumptuous" (Num 15:28, 30), nor "willful" (Heb 10:26). God's concern is with the heart, because that's where our treasure is (Mat 6:21), regardless the sin nature's continued presence!

Of course, it's ok if we disagree on this!

 

[Behold]

The point is now that for the believer, sin is never "presumptuous"

Sure it is.

Otherwise all works of the flesh you committed this year, so far, would be "unintentional accidents" and that is simply not true.

The truth is... a born again person, can become tempted into a deed that is carnal, and they do it.

Paul says that we are not to do that.... "Use not your Liberty in Christ for an occasion to the Flesh".

That's willful., every single time.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sure it is.

Otherwise all works of the flesh you committed this year, so far, would be "unintentional accidents" and that is simply not true.

The truth is... a born again person, can become tempted into a deed that is carnal, and they do it.

Paul says that we are not to do that.... "Use not your Liberty in Christ for an occasion to the Flesh".

That's willful., every single time.

That's true. What NC is saying appears to relate to the fact we never intentionally sin when we are living by the seed of Christ that has been born within us. We cannot by Christ's nature blaspheme the Holy Spirit or deny Christ. On the contrary, our New Nature always, always reaffirms who he is and what his redemption means for us.

But I agree with you. Christians certainly do intentionally sin. But as NC said, it is the carnal Man--not the Spiritual Man.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You have shifted your entire original "Here is James teaching us what we must do so that Christ will save us to begin with"... to this vague redefining of your original statements.

Sorry, that is your misinterpretation and re-wording of what I said and meant to say. You're assuming I'm saying something carnal and unscriptural and then twisting my words to fit your narrative.

I *never* said we must "do things as a form of self-justification, to get saved." We *accept Salvation that has already been won for us at the Cross." That's what I've said over and over, and you wish my words to be speaking "self-justification." That is an unloving, accusing spirit, and a way of self-promotion.

So, now you are trying to say that we dont have to commit to a "be like Christ lifestyle" before God will give us the new birth?

I said that in choosing Christ as a substitute for our own failed life we are embracing a form of repentance unto Salvation. Can I be more clear?

Come now and spin some more and flip some more and re-direct some more as its always interesting, during the last year when you cone to me and post...... to watch you shift to a new position with respect to what you will believe next., and teach next time.

Randy.....You are obviously one of those believers who has "tried many theologies", "tried many denominations"... as if they are the next experiment in what to believe.... next.

Your self-promotion is unseemly. Your critical spirit is unseemly. Those who love God love His children.

 

[Behold]

That's true. What NC is saying appears to relate to the fact we never intentionally sin when we are living by the seed of Christ that has been born within us.

"sin'... is not a part of the born again Experience,.

Sin, is related to the LAW, as its the LAW that defines, carnality, works of the flesh, as SIN.

Take away the law, and these same DEEDS are now..."not under the law, but under Grace".

So, this is why Paul says to the born again.....>"Use not your Liberty in Christ for an occasion to the FLESH">

He is defining "flesh", according to ..."Christ is the end of the Law, for everyone who BELIEVES".

or... "the born again are not under the Law, but under Grace"..

Can you be tempted to do that "flesh".... Yes.... of course.
And when a believer chooses to do it, they are abusing the "Liberty, that is in Christ".

Paul says "dont do that".

 

[Randy Kluth]

"sin'... is not a part of the born again Experience,.

Sin, is related to the LAW, as its the LAW that defines, carnality, works of the flesh, as SIN.

Take away the law, and these same DEEDS are now..."not under the law, but under Grace".

So, this is why Paul says to the born again.....>"Use not your Liberty in Christ for an occasion to the FLESH">

He is defining "flesh", according to ..."Christ is the end of the Law, for everyone who BELIEVES".

or... "the born again are not under the Law, but under Grace"..

Can you be tempted to do that "flesh".... Yes.... of course.
And when a believer chooses to do it, they are abusing the "Liberty, that is in Christ".

Paul says "dont do that".

I don't disagree with that. As I said, I agree that the born again Christian can willfully sin, though you define that as "not a born again experience"--whatever that means?

For me, to say a Christian willfully sins is to say that a born again Christian willfully sins. A Christian by definition is a born again person.

So, to clarify, a Christian does not willfully sin by his "born again nature," but rather, by his capitulation to his carnal nature. We can be forgiven for that, though it brings death of various kinds.

 

[Behold]

I *never* said we must "do things as a form of self-justification, to get saved." We *accept Salvation that has already been won for us at the Cross." That's what I've said over and over,

Let me show you your quote so that i can explain if for the reader who is now confused by your "shifting gears, theologically"

Here is what you stated..


""""""Hi, Thanks brother. It's difficult for me to see how God justifies accepting us on the basis of our flawed lives?
It is, I think, contingent on our willingness to live by this New Nature, to start with.""""

So, let me unscramble this word spaghetti you are twisting, here..

Randy Kluth said...

1.) "difficult to see how how God Justifies, us on the basis of flawed lives"""""""""""""""""""

So, here you are about to state HOW God Justifies...

2.) "I THINK, IT IS (God's justification)... CONTINGENT our our willingness to live by this New Nature, to START WITH"..

So, that is... your idea of why God will give a person the new birth.

"willingness to live by the new nature".... is your "contingency":.. doctrine. ... = false.

Now, come and get that all straightened out now, by trying to maneuver away from what you previously said. As that is what you always do, while claiming that you are being attacked, or similar.
Nothing new with you.

 

[Netchaplain]

Sure it is.

Otherwise all works of the flesh you committed this year, so far, would be "unintentional accidents" and that is simply not true.

The truth is... a born again person, can become tempted into a deed that is carnal, and they do it.

Paul says that we are not to do that.... "Use not your Liberty in Christ for an occasion to the Flesh".

That's willful., every single time.

All I can say is what Scripture teaches, and I see nowhere it says a Christian wants to sin against God. It doesn't even sound right!

 

[Behold]

So, to clarify, a Christian does not willfully sin by his "born again nature," but rather, by his capitulation to his carnal nature. We can be forgiven for that,

Because "God hath made Jesus to be sin for us, as "the one time eternal sacrifice for sin"... is why we are already forgiven.

We dont run to 1 John 1:8, to try to be re-forgiven.

We, the born again, understand that Christ is our eternal Forgiveness, completed for us, that we have received.

This is explained here...

2nd Corinthians 5:19
Romans 4:8
John 3:17

 

[Behold]

All I can say is what Scripture teaches, and I see nowhere it says a Christian wants to sin against God. It doesn't even sound right!

Paul teaches us..

"Use not your Liberty in Christ for an occasion to the FLESH".. ."dont go and enjoy Netflix and an R Rated movie again".

See, He would not teach the born again this verse, if they were not going to be tempted.

You are not familiar with James teaching on "dead faith"?

How about this phrase... "Backslidden Christian".

How about this believer..."DEMAS"..

And this verse......Phrase...>"Shipwrecked faith".


See all those?
Those are Born again.

 

[Netchaplain]

Paul teaches us..

"Use not your Liberty in Christ for an occasion to the FLESH".. ."dont go and enjoy Netflix and an R Rated movie again".

The "cloak" is thinking God will forgive you even if it's intentional sin. This would only be acceptable for a believer that is still temporarily immature about sinning.

See, He would not teach the born again this verse, if they were not going to be tempted.

"Dominion" of the "old man" is its ability to cause us to desire and want to sin, which of course is the main point of it all--never to wanting to sin. Believers can no longer desire to sin, thus it is impulsive rather than intentional. To repeat myself, there is no forgiveness for intentional sins (Num 15:28, 30; Heb 10:26).

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy Kluth said...

1.) "difficult to see how how God Justifies, us on the basis of flawed lives"""""""""""""""""""

So, here you are about to state HOW God Justifies...

No, you completely take me out of context.

2.) "I THINK, IT IS (God's justification)... CONTINGENT our our willingness to live by this New Nature, to START WITH"..

So, that is... your idea of why God will give a person the new birth.

No, you are misrepresenting what I said.

"willingness to live by the new nature".... is your "contingency":.. doctrine. ... = false.

Of course, you're arguing with a misrepresentation of what I said and meant to say. It is indeed difficult to comprehend the Grace of God meted out to us through Christ Jesus. Nothing wrong with that.

So how does God justify forgiving the "unforgiveable?" He does it by enabling us to participate not in the work of Redemption, but rather, in the obedience He originally called us to, to live in His image and likeness.

You have a very, very critical spirit, brother. If you wish to disagree fine. But worse, you wish to slander. I never once said we participate in our own Redemption. Never have I said that I believe in Self-Justification. Of course, when you quote me you have to completely ignore those statements, right?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Because "God hath made Jesus to be sin for us, as "the one time eternal sacrifice for sin"... is why we are already forgiven.

We dont run to 1 John 1:8, to try to be re-forgiven.

We, the born again, understand that Christ is our eternal Forgiveness, completed for us, that we have received.

This is explained here...

2nd Corinthians 5:19
Romans 4:8
John 3:17

Of course, I never ever said we need to be "re-forgiven." You have to come up with novel concepts in order to argue against things I've never said. Either that, or you use what I have said to misconstrue what I meant so that you can argue against it.

Either way, you have a critical spirit and ignore the fact I have said, "I do not believe in Self-Justification." I believe in what James said, that genuine Faith requires that we demonstrate that Faith in both Repentance and a choice to do Good Works in Christ. In other words, we choose to abandon the Old Man for the New Man in Christ. We surrender to God's offer of Salvation in Christ.

 

[Netchaplain]

See, He would not teach the born again this verse, if they were not going to be tempted.

There's tempting, as in desire to do; and tempting as in testing, to see if there is a desire to sin!

You are not familiar with James teaching on "dead faith"?

Dead faith means no faith at all, like a dead person.

How about this phrase... "Backslidden Christian".

A backslider is one who is a hypocrite or apostate, who eventually manifest they weren't saved, because they always "return to their vomit." The only pace where backsliding is resolved is Jer 3:14.

 

[Behold]

There's tempting, as in desire to do; and tempting as in testing, to see if there is a desire to sin!

Paul didnt say anything about temptation.
He said.. "Use not your liberty in Christ for an occasion to the Flesh".

Dead faith means no faith at all, like a dead person.

Well, this is a sticky place in the NT, as heretics teach that salvation can be lost, by misusing James's phase.

See, James said that faith could become dead, and Heretics retranslate that as "Salvation is lost".

Gotta watch those Heretics, as they love to take verses from : JAMES... HEBREWS.. and MATTHEW and ruin your faith, if they can, as that is their main reason to be on a Forum.

A backslider is one who is a hypocrite or apostate, who eventually manifest they weren't saved, because they always "return to their vomit." The only pace where backsliding is resolved is Jer 3:14.

Demas was a backslider., He's in heaven now.

Something for the reader to consider....

If you are sitting there watching some "lite porn" Netflix movie or series, (later) or watched something like "Game of Thrones" for the 7 yrs it was on.... where rape and incest was most of the script.... then you were "backslidden" when you were watching this ungodly junk.

Then on Sunday, you go to church, and nobody knows....

Except for God..

And you are still born again, but you are a lukewarm, dead faith, "cold to Christ", "type"... mostly backslidden., but still born again.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

There's tempting, as in desire to do; and tempting as in testing, to see if there is a desire to sin!

Dead faith means no faith at all, like a dead person.

A backslider is one who is a hypocrite or apostate, who eventually manifest they weren't saved, because they always "return to their vomit." The only pace where backsliding is resolved is Jer 3:14.

Some ppl do not have a grasp on the truth and the spirit of the word of God. They are easily " puffed up" clouds carried about by the winds of mans doctrine. I am not of Cephas nor of Paul but the Gospel of Jesus, the Christ, IS OUR SALVATION !

Coming to Christ, receiving forgiveness and yielding unto and being led of the Spirit brings us to the knowledge of sin, for the Spirit checks our actions by the word.

As you have said, Chaplain a backslider does so in heart, where their treasure lies, be it of the flesh or of the Spirit!

Galatians 5:16-26
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh

 

[Netchaplain]

Paul didnt say anything about temptation.
He said.. "Use not your liberty in Christ for an occasion to the Flesh".

Giving into temptation is what is meant by "occasion" (opportunity) to sin. No excuses for willful sinning except temporary immaturity!

See, James said that faith could become dead, and Heretics retranslate that as "Salvation is lost".

Paul said didn't say "become dead" but "is dead," i.e. never have existed (Jas 2:17; 20, 26)! The phrase "faith without works is dead" means there is no faith, because faith is never dead, it always produces the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Netchaplain]

Some ppl do not have a grasp on the truth and the spirit of the word of God. They are easily " puffed up" clouds carried about by the winds of mans doctrine. I am not of Cephas nor of Paul but the Gospel of Jesus, the Christ, IS OUR SALVATION !

Hi, and appreciate your reply! Yes, those that are "puffed up" are either reborn and are still temporarily "babes in Christ," or they are not reborn. Eventually everyone reborn becomes mature in Christ (Phl 2:13).