“The Knowledge of Sin”

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Netchaplain

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The difference between learning sin in God’s presence and learning by falling into it is very great. One may feel sin deeply, because one has committed it, but this never gives one God’s sense of what sin is. The Cross of the Lord Jesus Christ is the measure of what sin is in the sight of the Father. I personally measure sin as it pains my conscience and deforms me in the sight of God and man. And hence, one sin is greater to me than another (the judgment of the damned will vary in degrees according to the severity of their sins - Mat 11:21, 22; Luk 12:47, 48—NC); and the sin I commit is therefore necessarily the one I feel about, and my sense of it is according the condition of my conscience. My conscience is active according to my apprehension of God’s claims and appointments for me; and departure from His will and from subjection to His Word are known to be sin.

But all this is only viewing sin as it affects ourselves. This is not the true measure of it. I must see how it is viewed by God. The terrible distance from God in which sin places one is only learned in the Cross. If I see it there, though I may never have committed any of it, to the knowledge of my conscience, yet I see that the working of the law in my members is of that sin (Rom 7:23 – sinners are not “captives” but willing subjects—NC) which is judged in the Cross, and there only is its measure met out according to God.

Then I get a sense of sin which no amount of personal failure could ever give me. There is no excusing it; no toleration of it. The Cross is God’s measure of every bit of it, the least as well as the greatest; and as I see this, I can allow no less a measure of it than His, and I shrink in holiness of nature from the least, as much as I should from the greatest.

As a rule, you will find that those who have committed most sins have not the deepest sense of sin (which varies with maturity in Christ – Eph 4:15—NC). They generally have a deep sense of being forgiven, and they occupy themselves with that. Those who have been preserved, though greatly tempted, while fearful of danger (danger of not growing in their faith, not of losing their salvation—NC), have not only a deeper sense of the grace of God, but also a greater horror of that from which they have “escaped” (2Pe 2:20—NC).

True sense of sin is less concerned with the extent to which it can go (unconcerned of how bad it can make one—NC), than with its purpose at the inception. The latter, I can only know in the presence of God; and hence the word, “Who shall deliver me from the body of this death” (Ro 7:24 - not the physical body but that “body of sin” - Ro 6:6, which has its members in the body of the “old man” - Col 3:5—NC)? If I only condemn myself for what I have committed, I exonerate myself from everything else (deliverance includes all sin, esp. concerning the continued indwelling of the presence of the “old man” - Ro 7:17, 20—NC). The Cross is the measure of the distance between me and God created by sin, and in the Cross only that distance has been removed and the sin condemned (the old man’s damnation - Ro 8:1 and dominion Ro 6:14 - is nullified in the Cross—NC). Hence, I have God’s sense about sin if I am near Him, and a deeper abhorrence, and a more rigid separation from it.

It is not only that I have to see sin condemned on the Cross, but in order to have a true realization of it, I must be on God’s side, and see it at the root in its native willfulness, and not merely in its fruit, which is the extent to which it can go. In the one case it is God who is before me, and I see my sin, in its true distance from Him—the unutterable agony of the Cross. In the other, my own hideousness is before me, and I dwell on the mercy that has met me and saved me. This indeed must come first, but when I am occupied with the holy side, my sense of holiness is divine, while I know only the more deeply the grace which can forgive, and the deliverance vouchsafed to me.


— James Butler Stoney (1814-1897)







MJS daily devotional for August 29

“It is essential that a believer have a clear understanding of his position before the Father—his place in the risen Lord Jesus Christ. This alone will give true peace of mind, joy and comfort of heart, strength for conflict and power for service. We will never be able to properly understand or fill our place for God on earth if we do not realize our God-given standing before Him in heaven.

“And never forget that our place before the Father is His gift, and a gift worthy of the Giver; not a gift according to the measure of our worth but a gift intended to display the exceeding riches of the grace of the Giver. The greatness of the Giver then is the measure of the blessings that are mine in the Lord Jesus Christ, not what I am or what I deserve.” —Theodore Austin-Sparks (1888–1971)
 

Randy Kluth

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That's pretty profound brother! And I agree. There is a distance between just seeing where I've failed today, or in some particular sin, and seeing the entire life that Christ died to give us!

Defining "Sin" is more like defining a Sin Nature than defining just a limited number of Sins. We must see failure to live in Christ as THE Sin, as opposed to just making a mistake here or there. We must live in Christ to be righteous, and to avoid the individual sins.
 

Netchaplain

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That's pretty profound brother! And I agree. There is a distance between just seeing where I've failed today, or in some particular sin, and seeing the entire life that Christ died to give us!

Defining "Sin" is more like defining a Sin Nature than defining just a limited number of Sins. We must see failure to live in Christ as THE Sin, as opposed to just making a mistake here or there. We must live in Christ to be righteous, and to avoid the individual sins.
Hi Randy, and like what you said, pretty perceptive in my opinion! Of course, we need not to be discouraged when we are considering the difference of the lifestyle between ours and the Lord Jesus', for God no longer sees us as sinners (1Pe 4:18). One is encouraged to know that there is no Scripture that relates the believer as a "sinner"; and this is plenty sufficient for the saint!
 

Behold

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Being "born .... again"... means that God has joined your spirit INTO His...

"ONE with God".... "IN Christ".

And before this can happen, God has to deal with ALL your SIN, so that you are forgiven, and removed from the dominion of the Law so that your future behavior can never again be defined as SIN.

"Christ is the END OF THE LAW for everyone who BELIEVES"..

Why does God have to do this?
Its because "God is A Spirit", the HOLY Spirit, and He cannot join Himself to SIN, nor did He create Salvation that allows for you to be esteemed as a SINNER< later on, as then, you'd be a SINNER, in spiritual union with God.
That didn't work for Adam, and the 2nd Adam has resolved that issue for all the Born again.

So, God deals with "sin"....once and for all... through the Cross, and then having dealt with it, births your spirit into Himself by the Holy Spirit.

And....Something else..

Its often the case that the worst sinners, become the greatest Trophy's of God's Grace.

Paul is such a Trophy, as He saw himself as a former CHIEF of sinners, because he had helped Christian be put to death.
He viewed this as the worst of all sinners or the : "'Chief"..
And this former "Chief" of sinners was called by Jesus to be the greatest Christian who ever lived.
Jesus took this former "Chief" of sinners, washed Him in His blood and gave Him personal revelation, that became the Doctrine for the Church and the 'Gospel of the Grace of God".
This all came from Paul, the former "Chief of sinners'.

Such is the power and the wonder of the Grace of God.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Hi Randy, and like what you said, pretty perceptive in my opinion! Of course, we need not to be discouraged when we are considering the difference of the lifestyle between ours and the Lord Jesus', for God no longer sees us as sinners (1Pe 4:18). One is encouraged to know that there is no Scripture that relates the believer as a "sinner"; and this is plenty sufficient for the saint!
Hi, Thanks brother. It's difficult for me to see how God justifies accepting us on the basis of our flawed lives? So like you seem to be suggesting, it must be His purity of heart, willing to forgive anything and everything.

It is, I think, contingent on our willingness to live by this New Nature, to start with. God needs, I think, something to work with, and that must be our heart? And our heart acts in response to God's initiative in reaching out in love to us first?
 

Behold

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God justifies accepting us on the basis of

It is, I think, contingent on our willingness to live by this New Nature,

I edited your post, to reflect what you are teaching again, it seems.

Did i get it right?

(paraphrase) = "justification based on accepting the demands".. and if we wont agree to do that, God wont save us and you would go to hell?

God only gives salvation to those who FIRST agree : to Carry the Cross, and die to self daily and obey the commands of Christ.....

Is that what you are teaching as Why God's Grace is freely given to the Believer, as "The Gift of Salvation".?

What a GIFT, huh?

Its a Swap you say, you teach?

Our Agreement to live a certain way, after we are saved, and then God will give us the new birth?

Am i understanding your Gospel, Randy?
 

Randy Kluth

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I edited your post, to reflect what you are teaching again, it seems.

Did i get it right?

"justification based on accepting the demands".. and if we wont agree to do that, God wont save us?
No, I know where you're coming from, and I know it sounds like self-justification, but I'm just laying down what I think are God's conditions for Salvation--for God to save us, and not for us to save ourselves. I think He requires of us obedience and acceptance of His word as the basis of completing HIs offer of Salvation--not because we're earning it, but rather, because we are responding to what He requires of us to Save us.

He requires that we *accept His Son as the basis of our Salvation.* His Son alone died for our sins. We do not remove sins by ourselves, nor can we remove their guilt at all. Once we've sinned, we're history! So we accept *Christ* as the basis of our Salvation, and not even our choice to accept that Salvation as the basis of our Salvation. It is simply God's own requirement of us that we respond to His offer of Salvation in order for us to receive it.

What we can do is respond to God's word by ceasing from the practice of sin, and accepting Christ as the basis of our righteousness. This is, in effect, the New Nature, which is based on our choice to live in the life of Christ. Living in this New Nature is the equivalent of living in Christ, which is much better than just repenting of doing a few sins and doing a few good deeds. To accept Christ is to accept the basis of Salvation, which is God's gift, and not what we've earned.

When we accept Christ and his life, we from that point on choose to live in partnership with Christ, drawing upon his virtues so that all we do is pleasing to God. We are not saved by the good that we choose to do, but rather, by our capitulation to accept God's gracious offer of His Son, Christ.
 

Behold

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No, I know where you're coming from, and I know it sounds like self-justification, but I'm just laying down what I think are God's conditions for Salvation--for God to save us,

There are one Condition that God requires of us, so that He will give the Gift.

We have to BELIEVE.
 

Behold

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What we can do is respond to God's word by ceasing from the practice of sin, and accepting Christ as the basis of our righteousness. This is, in effect, the New Nature,


You came to God, as a sinner.
We all did., as Christ came to save, "those who have ceased from sinning" ????

No.. He came to SAVE SINNERS, who were SINNING.....
You didn't come to Him after you "ceased from sin".. so why do you keep teaching that others must, and then God will save them?

So, can you get it... (your teaching), so that you are no longer teaching...>>"Stop sinning and God will take you if you promise you'll live like Christ"... as that is your Gospel.

And that is Galatians 1:8
 
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Randy Kluth

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There are one Condition that God requires of us, so that He will give the Gift.

We have to BELIEVE.
Yes, but the word "believe" is loaded with meaning. That's where the "rub" is. Does it mean to "believe" without doing anything about it? No, James puts that animal to rest...

James 2.18 Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
 

Randy Kluth

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You came to God, as a sinner.
We all did., as Christ came to save, "those who have ceased from sinning" ????

No.. He came to SAVE SINNERS, who were SINNING.....
You didn't come to Him after you "ceased from sin".. so why do you keep teaching that others must, and then God will save them?

So, can you get it... (your teaching), so that you are no longer teaching...>>"Stop sinning and God will take you if you promise you'll live like Christ"... as that is your Gospel.

And that is Galatians 1:8
No, you just don't understand that faith in Christ is the basis of our Salvation because Christ is our Salvation. You can argue it all you want, but we do have to accept that Salvation if we are to have it.

To choose to stop sinning is, as a matter of *faith,* choosing Christ as the basis of our Salvation. True, there are those who stop sinning without faith, and do not achieve Christ as a substitute for their own independence. They simply cease doing certain things, but they do not put on Christ as their righteousness.

But in order for us to accept Christ as our righteousness he must've already provided for our Salvation. And so, he alone saved us, and he alone is our pure righteousness. But it is by a faith that embraces him as righteousness that obtains what I call "Salvation." To choose Christ is to choose Salvation.

We are not saved without choosing him. Salvation is a cooperative effort. He earned it for us, but we must accept it and put it into motion.
 
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Behold

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Yes, but the word "believe" is loaded with meaning. That's where the "rub" is. Does it mean to "believe" without doing anything about it? No, James puts that animal to rest...

James 2.18 Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

Thank you for finally admitting that you are teaching that we must DO a work, before God will save us.
I knew you could be that clear regarding your false gospel.
Now i understand that someone has misused James to ruin your understanding of the Cross.

its always the same..
They use Hebrews, James, or Matthew.
Always.

So, First of all, before Abraham offered Isaac, he Believed.
God accepts Faith.
"without faith it is impossible to please God".
And, "Abraham is the Father of our FAITH"... not of our works... Paul teaches.

Also, we are "saved by Grace, through faith"... not "saved by Grace after we commit to a lifestyle"..

Next.

Nowhere in your abuse of James's verses, does he Say that God saved Him to begin with, because he was going to go and produce some spiritual fruit later.
In Fact, James's verse is teaching what you are to do subsequent to receiving the Gift of Salvation.
James is explaining that "dead faith", is to never show PEOPLE your faith by your works.

This is why the verse says..."I will show YOU my faith by my Works".
He does not say, i will show GOD, my faith by my works.
You should notice that, next time you are reading those same verses in your commentary.

So, as i told you months ago, and today, and the next time......You are teaching that the commitment to the work of discipleship is the reason God will save you to begin with, and you are twisting Jame's verses to teach your Galatians 1:8

You are denying that Salvation is a GIfT., and that is an insult to the Grace of God and the Cross of Christ.

You should stop doing that, asap., as that is the safe place.
 

Behold

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To choose to stop sinning .

To choose to stop sinning, is not a prerequisite to receive the GIFT of Salvation.

The only prerequisite is to : BELIEVE

"all that CALL on the Name of Jesus, shall be saved".

Just like that, as you call because you BELIEVED, and "faith is counted as righteousness" by God, every single time.

The BELIEVER is "Justified by Faith" alone, without works, and without any commitment to provide them, later.
 

Randy Kluth

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To choose to stop sinning, is not a prerequisite to receive the GIFT of Salvation.
To choose Christ is by default choosing something better than this world. Whether the convert realizes it or not, a choice for Christ is in fact a choice to repent.
 

Randy Kluth

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Thank you for finally admitting that you are teaching that we must DO a work, before God will save us.
It depends on what you mean by "a work?" I'll admit to nothing when you use words in a way that I don't.

Do Christians work to redeem themselves from sin? Of course not! Christ alone redeemed us from sin by dying on the cross and saying, "Father forgive them."

But we do have to say yes to Jesus when he has already provided for our redemption? Unless we say yes we don't get Saved.

That is not what I call "a work." But it is a choice we must make to be Saved.

Acts 2.21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You either believe this or you don't. If you don't believe it, it is your Gospel that is false. It is a form of antinomianism. I don't care to go on with you about it because you change the meaning of words in order to persist in your arguing. And I have no interest in that.
 

Behold

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To choose Christ is by default choosing something better than this world. Whether the convert realizes it or not, a choice for Christ is in fact a choice to repent.

The repentance that God accepts, is not to "repent of being a sinner".

Its to repent of being an unbeliever.

To turn from (Repent from) UNBELIEF... .and turn to BELIEF. (Faith in Christ).

Thats "Repentance" that is accepted by God as "Faith is counted as righteousness".
 

Behold

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Do Christians work to redeem themselves from sin? Of course not! Christ alone redeemed us from sin by dying on the cross and saying, "Father forgive them."

What you tried to prove by twisting James to suit your Legalism, is......we must agree to a change of lifestyle... to agree to try to be like Christ, and THEN, if we AGREE to this commitment.... THEN God will save us....

So, that is what you teach...

Yet, Salvation is a Gift that does not require any subsequent commitment, as if God required this, then it would not be a Gift.
 
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Netchaplain

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Being "born .... again"... means that God has joined your spirit INTO His...

"ONE with God".... "IN Christ".

And before this can happen, God has to deal with ALL your SIN, so that you are forgiven, and removed from the dominion of the Law so that your future behavior can never again be defined as SIN.
Hi, and appreciate your reply! Like what you said. It's my understanding that the Gentiles were under the law of sin; and Israel was under the Law, which manifested to them that they were in sin and how to resolves it--through Christ. Though the Christian still sins, it is no longer "willful" (Heb 10: 26). The "dominion" of sin being nullified by the Cross cannot cause us to desire to sin, and it's the heart God wants; "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." (Mat 6:21).

"Christ is the END OF THE LAW for everyone who BELIEVES"..

Why does God have to do this?
Its because "God is A Spirit", the HOLY Spirit, and He cannot join Himself to SIN,
Though believers are justified from sin, it matters not that he still possess the old man or sin nature. It's the sin nature itself that incurs guilt. The sin is just aftermath. He left the sin nature within us to continue to learn from it (its original reason of being in us) as we continue to entrust our faith in Christ's atonement from its condemnation!
 

Behold

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Though the Christian still sins, it is no longer "willful"

Because the "Christian" is not under the Law, "Christ has redeemed us from the Curse of the Law"..."Christ is the END OF THE LAW...for Righteousness, to everyone who BELIEVES"... (Born again).

So, what does that mean?...

It means that there is no Law that can define your carnal deed as a "sin", because "where there is no LAW, THERE IS NO TRANSGRESSION"... OF THE Law.

This explains :

2nd Corinthians 5:19........Romans 4:8........... John 3:17.


So, the "Christian" does not "Sin"... .as "sin" can only be defined as "sin" by the LAW, and the born again is "not under the Law but under Grace".

Does this mean that the Christian wont ever commit a carnal deed or thought?
Not at all.
But when they do, the LAW has no spiritual jurisdiction over them any longer, which would have allowed that "work of the flesh" to be defined as a "SIN">

Also, its simply silly to state that the next time you commit a carnal deed, it was not "willful", as in fact, it will be....

This is why Paul teaches us to ..."Not use our Liberty in Christ for an OCCASION, to the Flesh"... "to occasionally enjoy some carnality.""

Like .... "NETFLIX......for example...
 
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Netchaplain

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Hi, Thanks brother. It's difficult for me to see how God justifies accepting us on the basis of our flawed lives? So like you seem to be suggesting, it must be His purity of heart, willing to forgive anything and everything.
He knows those who will lovingly accept Him without Him overriding or "trespassing" against our will.
It is, I think, contingent on our willingness to live by this New Nature, to start with. God needs, I think, something to work with, and that must be our heart? And our heart acts in response to God's initiative in reaching out in love to us first?
Once we accept Christ, God ensures we will be willing to "please" Him (Phil 2:13).
 
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