“We Will Not Have This Man to Reign Over Us”, The Root of Rebellion

[bdavidc]

So Jesus is concerned about money?

Jesus uses money in the parable to teach faithfulness and accountability. He states the lesson plainly: “Because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities” (Luke 19:17). The servants must answer for what their master entrusted to them.

My point was that the “pound” here is money, while the pounds of spices in John describe weight. Sharing an English word does not establish a spiritual connection between two passages. We need to follow the explanation Jesus gives rather than invent connections He never made.

 

[bdavidc]

No. Christ did not promise a "visible return." On the contrary, He set up and taught the terms of a spiritual return "in the glory of the Father", by the Holy Spirit, which is Him as "another [spirit] Helper", as "firstfruits of the Spirit"--"not by observation."

So yes, what you and many have believed is a "lie"--the "lie" foretold by Paul, the cause of "strong delusion", begun by "false teachers" foretold by Peter.


No, that too is a lie. That is only your interpretation of what is written, and what you believe.


We've been through this all before many times--and you repeating your convictions only shows how deep it runs in you.

But again, I will correct you: No, the "like manner" you are quoting above is only part of what is written. Jesus himself said he was coming NOT in the clouds of this world, but "on the clouds of heaven", meaning in spirit...as "God is spirit."

As for Matthew 16:17, you have missed the meaning of that passage completely. Jesus was not just stating how Peter knew His identity--He was stating how He would build His church. Which even Peter described "as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house"--"spiritual"--not "flesh and blood."

As for Luke 24:39--again I must correct you. That passages speaks of Jesus defeating death and rising from the dead--not the resurrection. Contrary to what many believe, the resurrection was depicted at His ascension--a completely different act than Him first rising from the dead. But I speak of heavenly things--how will you understand the full truth, when you are "forty days" off the mark--the very definition of sin?

Well, I have said it before and will say it again--"forty days", "forty years" and even "four hundred years" is a biblical theme spiritually defined and established in the scriptures some 140 times, including the time of Israel's wandering in the desert, the years of reign of both David and Solomon, and Jesus' fasting in the wilderness. Of which Jesus did both--both wandered and suffered in the wilderness, and also walked in glory--"forty days" and "forty nights"--dividing "the light from the darkness."

Stop calling for sin and lies to be believed.

Meanwhile, what I have said not only "submits" but declares what is [actually] true by God and all that is written, while yours is the interpretation, belief, and teachings of men.

You keep calling my statements lies, but your correction directly contradicts the text. You say Jesus rising from the dead was “not the resurrection.” Acts 1:22 explicitly calls it “his resurrection.” Acts 2:31 says David spoke “of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” His resurrection was His rising from the dead. His ascension followed forty days later (Acts 1:3, 9). Scripture distinguishes those events.

You also claim “clouds of heaven” means an invisible spiritual return. Jesus says the opposite: “They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” (Matthew 24:30). The very passage you appeal to says “they shall see.” Where does it say those clouds make Him invisible?

Calling the church a “spiritual house” does not mean Christ no longer has the body in which He rose. Peter was describing believers being built together, not redefining Christ’s resurrection or return. Likewise, “not with observation” in Luke 17:20 concerns the Pharisees’ question about the kingdom. Later in that same chapter, Jesus compares His day to lightning shining across the sky (Luke 17:24).

Your use of “strong delusion” also reverses Paul’s teaching. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3, Paul discusses “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and ... our gathering together unto him,” then warns against claims that the day has already arrived. He does not call belief in Christ’s future visible return the lie.

And Acts 1:3 says Jesus appeared during forty days, “speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.” It does not describe those days as another wilderness wandering or define disagreement with your timeline as sin. Those connections are your additions.

Show where Scripture says Christ’s resurrection occurred at His ascension or that “they shall see” means an invisible return. Claiming to speak heavenly things does not excuse you from proving what you teach.

 

[ScottA]

Acts 1:22 explicitly calls it “his resurrection.”

Point by point if we must.

No... Acts 1:22 specifically refers to Jesus being "taken up"...which is indeed His resurrection (and ours). But His raising from the grave was forty day prior.

This will be a test of you--will you stand corrected, or against what is actually written?

 

[ScottA]

Acts 2:31 says David spoke “of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” His resurrection was His rising from the dead. His ascension followed forty days later (Acts 1:3, 9). Scripture distinguishes those events.

Here you error also.

As you have said and quoted, the passage refers to Christ's resurrection, and "his flesh"--but separately, saying "either" regarding only "his flesh." Which you have wrongly assumed means the two, both flesh and spirit, are together in "the resurrection"--which is against all that is written of the flesh returning "to the earth as it was: and the spirit" returning "unto God who gave it."

What most miss here, is that Jesus gave His flesh to the church--saying, "take, eat, this is my body." Which is to say, the church also leaves behind the flesh, that flesh returning "to the earth" to be "dissolved" with "the elements" of the earth.

Again, I have corrected you, but also explained.

 

[ScottA]

You also claim “clouds of heaven” means an invisible spiritual return. Jesus says the opposite: “They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” (Matthew 24:30). The very passage you appeal to says “they shall see.” Where does it say those clouds make Him invisible?

Calling the church a “spiritual house” does not mean Christ no longer has the body in which He rose. Peter was describing believers being built together, not redefining Christ’s resurrection or return. Likewise, “not with observation” in Luke 17:20 concerns the Pharisees’ question about the kingdom. Later in that same chapter, Jesus compares His day to lightning shining across the sky (Luke 17:24).

Indeed, "they shall see"--but your error here is in what you do not see. The reference to "heaven" is a qualifying term, by definition "the kingdom of God"--spiritual kingdom of God. "God is spirit." Which is to say, "they will see" in "heaven"--"not by observation" in this world or upon the earth. Which I hope you do "see"...reconciles many passages of scripture...even if you have never considered it so.

And yes--this is all about "the kingdom" the Pharisees asked Jesus about.

 

[ScottA]

Your use of “strong delusion” also reverses Paul’s teaching. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3, Paul discusses “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and ... our gathering together unto him,” then warns against claims that the day has already arrived. He does not call belief in Christ’s future visible return the lie.

That is correct. It was not for Paul to say what the "lie" was. But I have declared it to you--for it is given to me by God to do so.

Again, this too is a test of you.

 

[ScottA]

And Acts 1:3 says Jesus appeared during forty days, “speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.” It does not describe those days as another wilderness wandering or define disagreement with your timeline as sin. Those connections are your additions.

That is not what I said.

Show where Scripture says Christ’s resurrection occurred at His ascension or that “they shall see” means an invisible return. Claiming to speak heavenly things does not excuse you from proving what you teach.

See post #44.