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Keraz

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Welll Having taught Eschatology for over 35 years and having garnered a rather large collection of end times writings from many persuasions, I never heard Jewish salvation ever was part of the rapture.
The pre-trib 'rapture to heaven of the Church' theory; must have Jewish Israel on earth, going thru the Great Tribulation, while they sit in heaven. This belief is never stated in the Bible and is a contradiction of much scripture.

A post Trib belief, has the people being raptured when Jesus Returns. Also with a Jewish redemption at that time.
When Jesus Returns; He stays there and reigns from Jerusalem for the next thousand years. Only a remnant of Judah who are Christians now, will go into the Millennium.
Zechariah 13:8-9
Zech 13 does not say that 1/3rd will all survive, the process of refining, means the dross is removed.
When god makes a covenant- He keeps it.
He will - with the true Israel of God. NOT with those who call themselves Jews, but are not. Rev 3:9
 

Keraz

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Indeed, Jesus came "but for the house of Israel", finished and said "It is finished"; and then referred to "another fold" which He "must also bring"--not a remnant of Israel, but "another" house entirely. Then began "the times of the gentiles."
Gentiles, who are in fact; descendants of the House of Israel, still scattered among the nations are identified by how they have accepted Christianity.
The House of Judah will be uprooted from the Holy Land and just a few Messianic Jews allowed back. Jeremiah 12:14
 

Ronald Nolette

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The pre-trib 'rapture to heaven of the Church' theory; must have Jewish Israel on earth, going thru the Great Tribulation, while they sit in heaven. This belief is never stated in the Bible and is a contradiction of much scripture.
Well that is what you demand but that is not biblical nor pretrib teaching.
Zech 13 does not say that 1/3rd will all survive, the process of refining, means the dross is removed.
Now you are nitpicking words and being a sloppy reader:

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

verse8 2/3 die.

Verse 9 the 1/3 will be brought through the fire and they (the 1/3) will call upon god and god will make them HIs people once again!


BTW:

Concerning your hypothesis of Jesus opening the first 5 seals when He ascended back to heaven? Can't cut it biblically nor chronologically.

JOhn writes of the seals after being caught up[ and shown things which will come to pass , NOT HAVE ALREADY BEEN COMING TO PASS!

Also John wrote revelation c. 90-95 AD. That is 60-65 years after Jesus ascension! God is not slop[py with HIs grammar as many imply He is by subtly trying to correct His writing. God is not silly enough to inspire something in 95 Ad and have it written as if it was still to come (as the writing clearly states) if it had already been happening for at least 60 years.
 

Keraz

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but that is not biblical nor pretrib teaching.
It is what I have been informed by many rapture believers.
What do you say happens to the Jews while the Church is [supposedly] in heaven?
Also John wrote revelation c. 90-95 AD. That is 60-65 years after Jesus ascension! God is not slop[py with HIs grammar as many imply He is by subtly trying to correct His writing. God is not silly enough to inspire something in 95 Ad and have it written as if it was still to come (as the writing clearly states) if it had already been happening for at least 60 years.
I do not see this as a problem. God was informing all the Christians since 95 AD, and is it only really since the KJV was printed that most Christians will have read Revelation.
Revelation 5:7-9 blows away your argument.

The other truth is that God did warn the Christians in 69 AD to get out of Jerusalem before the Roman conquest. They escaped to Pella.
 

Keiw

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Indeed, Jesus came "but for the house of Israel", finished and said "It is finished"; and then referred to "another fold" which He "must also bring"--not a remnant of Israel, but "another" house entirely. Then began "the times of the gentiles."
John 10:16--Other sheep who are not of that- fold( little flock)Luke 12:16) = 144,000 anointed bride of Christ--The other sheep= The great crowd which no man can number( Rev 7:9)--The little flock is promised heaven( Rev 14:3,Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)--The great crowd is promised earth-Psalm 37:29, Matt 5:5, Prov 2:21-22
Literal Israel is cut off of being Gods chosen( Matt 23:38-39) they outright refuse to this day to do verse 39. Spiritual Israel is now Gods chosen.
 

Jericho

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God will redeem His own people. The apostate and Jesus rejecting people who call themselves Jews, are not His people.
Prophesies like Ezekiel 21:1-7, tell of their virtual demise.
A real Jew, in Gods eyes, is one who is circumcised of the heart. Romans 2:29 Faithful Christian believers -NOW.

Read Romans 11 a little more closely. Paul clearly says God has not cast away His people. Gentiles are grafted in, but we are the branch, not the root.
 

covenantee

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Read Romans 11 a little more closely. Paul clearly says God has not cast away His people. Gentiles are grafted in, but we are the branch, not the root.
Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Paul clarifies who "His people" are.

They are the "remnant according to the election of grace".

This affirms:

Romans 9
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
 
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Ronald Nolette

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I do not see this as a problem. God was informing all the Christians since 95 AD, and is it only really since the KJV was printed that most Christians will have read Revelation.
Revelation 5:7-9 blows away your argument.

The other truth is that God did warn the Christians in 69 AD to get out of Jerusalem before the Roman conquest. They escaped to Pella.
Well you can't know how many believers had a chance to rfead revelation or listen to it read so you are just spitballing here.

Rev. 5 does nothing of the sort. that shows the saints in heaven!

But once again it is you who said the five seals were opened in 30 AD 65 years before they were revealed in a vision to JOhn of things which must come to pass (future). God is not sloppy with grammar ever. and it doesn't matter when bibles became common, it is god prophesying realities no matter how many know of it or not!

also God did not warn, Believers saw Jerusalem encompassed by armies and knew the Luke prophesy was about to be fulfilled and they fled to Pella.

It is what I have been informed by many rapture believers.
What do you say happens to the Jews while the Church is [supposedly] in heaven?
How many is many? Have you bothered to read any authoritative textbooks on dispensational eschatology? As I fellowship with dispensational believers, I know of very very very few who hold unorthodox dispensational views.

It is not what I say happens, but what Scripture says.

Ez. 20:33-38, Zech 13:8-9, and if the church is still on earth before Ezekiel 38-39, for Ez. 37 is in process of happening.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

They shall also rebvuild the temple and restore the sacrificial system (this does not mean god accepts them, it is just noted god says they will do this). They will make the 7 year covenant with the antichrist, and halfway through will have to flee for their lives as is foretold in Matt.24 and REv. 12 to the city of Petra.
 

covenantee

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also God did not warn, Believers saw Jerusalem encompassed by armies and knew the Luke prophesy was about to be fulfilled and they fled to Pella.
Who was the Source of Luke's (and Matthew's and Mark's) prophecy?
They shall also rebvuild the temple and restore the sacrificial system (this does not mean god accepts them, it is just noted god says they will do this). They will make the 7 year covenant with the antichrist, and halfway through will have to flee for their lives as is foretold in Matt.24 and REv. 12 to the city of Petra.
There will be no future rebuilt temple, restored sacrificial system, 7 year covenant, or antichrist. Those are dispensational delusions.

The Judaean Christians heeded Jesus' warnings in Matthew 24 et al, and fled to Pella prior to 70 AD. Thankfully, none of them were dispensational delusionites.
 
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Keraz

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Read Romans 11 a little more closely. Paul clearly says God has not cast away His people. Gentiles are grafted in, but we are the branch, not the root.
You should read what happened to ancient Israel, in the Bible and historical sources.
God divided Israel into 2 Houses. The House of Judah are still visible today, as the Jewish peoples. The House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes, were exiled and scattered among the nations and remain so today. They have lost their identity, but God knows who and where they are, Amos 9:9, and it is mainly them who have accepted Jesus as their Redeemer.
Our Spiritual regeneration as described in the analogy of the 'dry bones' of Ezekiel 37:1-14
 

Jericho

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Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Paul clarifies who "His people" are.

They are the "remnant according to the election of grace".

This affirms:

Romans 9
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

A remnant who is still Israelite.

And so all Israel will be saved as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; (Romans 11:26)
 

Jericho

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You should read what happened to ancient Israel, in the Bible and historical sources.
God divided Israel into 2 Houses. The House of Judah are still visible today, as the Jewish peoples. The House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes, were exiled and scattered among the nations and remain so today. They have lost their identity, but God knows who and where they are, Amos 9:9, and it is mainly them who have accepted Jesus as their Redeemer.
Our Spiritual regeneration as described in the analogy of the 'dry bones' of Ezekiel 37:1-14

I don't disagree with most of what you said, I do disagree with the intended audience. You allgorize Ezekiel 37:1-14 and apply is to us, I take it litteral and apply it to Israel.
 

covenantee

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A remnant who is still Israelite.
Yes. But note that Israel from its beginning and throughout its history was populated by both Jews and Gentiles. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

The believing remnant in Romans 11:5 is joined by believing Gentiles in Romans 11:11.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.
 
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rwb

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Yes. But note that Israel from its beginning and throughout its history was populated by both Jews and Gentiles. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

The believing remnant in Romans 11:5 is joined by believing Gentiles in Romans 11:11.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

Amen Brother!
 
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ewq1938

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Read Romans 11 a little more closely. Paul clearly says God has not cast away His people.

Same passage does in fact describe the unfaithful of that people being cast away becausse they were removed.

Gentiles are grafted in, but we are the branch, not the root.

Jews are the branch, not the root as well.
 

ScottA

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John 10:16--Other sheep who are not of that- fold( little flock)Luke 12:16) = 144,000 anointed bride of Christ--The other sheep= The great crowd which no man can number( Rev 7:9)--The little flock is promised heaven( Rev 14:3,Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)--The great crowd is promised earth-Psalm 37:29, Matt 5:5, Prov 2:21-22
Literal Israel is cut off of being Gods chosen( Matt 23:38-39) they outright refuse to this day to do verse 39. Spiritual Israel is now Gods chosen.

I'm not sure I follow what you have laid out there. But I do follow "first to the Jew, then to the Greek (gentile)" and "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual."
 
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David in NJ

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Same passage does in fact describe the unfaithful of that people being cast away becausse they were removed.



Jews are the branch, not the root as well.
@Jericho

JESUS is the Root

Isaiah 11:10
And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”