1John 3:5-6

[John Zain]

I've heard others argue for "progressive" sanctification before,
but none have been able to offer any scriptures to support such doctrine.

Truly, I feel that I'm writing this for others, and not for you!

There many dozens of NT verses, which encourage BACs
to stop sinning, be holy, be perfect, be overcomers, etc.
This refers to the progressive work of being more and more sanctified.

IMO, a 3rd level of sanctification is when God sets apart a BAC ...
to become a member of the 5-fold ministry (Eph 4:11),
which is the obvious NT pattern set up by God.
To be one of these church leaders ...
one needs a special anointing from Jesus ...
and this initially is His baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Please notice that this pattern has been mostly bypassed by the church
for the past 1900? years (with many thanks to Satan) ...
with the result of the church being led by men
who have been ordained by themselves (or other men).

 

[Axehead]

If there is no ongoing process of sanctification, then there is no such thing as "maturing in the Lord" and there is no such thing as "infants in Christ", no such thing as a purification process or cleansing oneself. And if you think about it, no such thing as repentance after being born-again and no such thing as Jesus' letters to the seven churches in Revelation.

James, speaking to the Church.

James_4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Amazing isn't it? There is absolutely no responsibility put upon us after we "walk down the aisle and get our ticket punched!"

 

[justaname]

Sanctification is to make holy.
To be holy is to be set apart for God's purpose.

Are we not made holy upon belief and the Indwelling of the Spirit?
What can man do to make himself holy? Are we to work to make ourselves more holy than the Spirit makes us?

Just an fyi...I have spoken about the sanctification process...now I am rethinking my position and choice of wording.

 

[haz]

Truly, I feel that I'm writing this for others, and not for you!

There many dozens of NT verses, which encourage BACs
to stop sinning, be holy, be perfect, be overcomers, etc.
This refers to the progressive work of being more and more sanctified.

IMO, a 3rd level of sanctification is when God sets apart a BAC ...
to become a member of the 5-fold ministry (Eph 4:11),
which is the obvious NT pattern set up by God.
To be one of these church leaders ...
one needs a special anointing from Jesus ...
and this initially is His baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Please notice that this pattern has been mostly bypassed by the church
for the past 1900? years (with many thanks to Satan) ...
with the result of the church being led by men
who have been ordained by themselves (or other men).

Can I suggest you read the first 3 posts of this topic to see why it is that Christian cannot be charged with sin or, in other words, "cannot sin" (1John3:9).

Could you also provide scripture to support your claims. I cannot see any foundation for the doctrine you speak of when you offer no scriptures in support.

If there is no ongoing process of sanctification, then there is no such thing as "maturing in the Lord" and there is no such thing as "infants in Christ", no such thing as a purification process or cleansing oneself. And if you think about it, no such thing as repentance after being born-again and no such thing as Jesus' letters to the seven churches in Revelation.

James, speaking to the Church.

James_4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Amazing isn't it? There is absolutely no responsibility put upon us after we "walk down the aisle and get our ticket punched!"

I suggest your points of concern can be answered by reading the actual context of the scriptures you refer to.

For example, you mentioned James 4:8. Firstly consider who this is being addressed to.
James 4:4 tells us that it addresses (spiritual) adulterers, that is those in unbelief who are in spiritual adultery with Hagar, who is symbolic for self righteousness by works of the law (Gal 4:24).

Note also that James 4:12 confirms this in saying to these legalists "who are you to judge another".

Thus we see that James 4:8 is a salvation call to these non believers\sinners to be cleansed and purified by Christ's sacrifice.

Your point about repentance is another example.
What did Christian repent of when we first received Christ?
We repented of "dead works" of self righteousness, Heb 6:1. These "dead works" of self righteousness was rebellion against God. But Christians no longer rebel against God. We submitted to His righteousness (Rom 10:3) and obey His will that we believe on Jesus (John 6:40).

If a true Christian who actually knew the truth (Heb 6:4-6) ever turned back to the law for righteousness by works, then for such there is no more repentance available, even if they sought it with tears (Heb 12:17). So we see here that repentance is what Christians did when we first received Christ. Repentance is not a regular ongoing thing, as is confirmed in scripture.

Sanctification is to make holy.
To be holy is to be set apart for God's purpose.
Are we not made holy upon belief and the Indwelling of the Spirit?
What can man do to make himself holy? Are we to work to make ourselves more holy than the Spirit makes us?

Amen.

 

[Axehead]

Can I suggest you read the first 3 posts of this topic to see why it is that Christian cannot be charged with sin or, in other words, "cannot sin" (1John3:9).

Could you also provide scripture to support your claims. I cannot see any foundation for the doctrine you speak of when you offer no scriptures in support.

I suggest your points of concern can be answered by reading the actual context of the scriptures you refer to.

For example, you mentioned James 4:8. Firstly consider who this is being addressed to.
James 4:4 tells us that it addresses (spiritual) adulterers, that is those in unbelief who are in spiritual adultery with Hagar, who is symbolic for self righteousness by works of the law (Gal 4:24).

Note also that James 4:12 confirms this in saying to these legalists "who are you to judge another".

Thus we see that James 4:8 is a salvation call to these non believers\sinners to be cleansed and purified by Christ's sacrifice.

Your point about repentance is another example.
What did Christian repent of when we first received Christ?
We repented of "dead works" of self righteousness, Heb 6:1. These "dead works" of self righteousness was rebellion against God. But Christians no longer rebel against God. We submitted to His righteousness (Rom 10:3) and obey His will that we believe on Jesus (John 6:40).

If a true Christian who actually knew the truth (Heb 6:4-6) ever turned back to the law for righteousness by works, then for such there is no more repentance available, even if they sought it with tears (Heb 12:17). So we see here that repentance is what Christians did when we first received Christ. Repentance is not a regular ongoing thing, as is confirmed in scripture.

Amen.

I could go on and on and I am sure you could to.

There is no such thing as "abiding in Christ" or "the Lord chastening those He loves". Why be told to abide, if that is what we do and to not abide is impossible? Why chasten if there is no reason be corrected because no one rebels anymore, and needs no cleansing? Why chasten if there is nothing to repent of (turn away from)? He is not talking to unbelievers, here is he?

Heb_12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Heb_12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

No reason to "keep ourselves in the love of God", because we never get out of it, do we? We are always in the love of God. Don't know why Jesus even wrote those letters to the seven Churches.
Jude_1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

And of course, there is no need to "take heed". Because, as you said, "Christians no longer rebel against God". Silly Paul, thinking that he needs to tell us to "continue in them". What?? Does he think we won't?
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Yes, Christians repented of "dead works" and I have known Christians to repent of dead works as Christians. I have also known Christians to repent of many other sins while Christians. Remember, sin is anything that is not of Christ, not of the Father and not authored by the Holy Spirit.

Axehead

 

[John Zain]

Haz,

"No one who lives (menōn, “abides”) in Him keeps on sinning."

This is not talking about all BACs who have been sanctified positionally.
This is not talking about BACs who are living in unrepented-of sin.

This is talking about BACs who are co-operating with being sanctified progressively.
This is only talking about those BACs who are actually living in Him,
i.e. those who are presently walking "in Christ".

 

[haz]

I could go on and on and I am sure you could to.

There is no such thing as "abiding in Christ" or "the Lord chastening those He loves". Why be told to abide, if that is what we do and to not abide is impossible? Why chasten if there is no reason be corrected because no one rebels anymore, and needs no cleansing? Why chasten if there is nothing to repent of (turn away from)? He is not talking to unbelievers, here is he?

Heb_12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Heb_12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

No reason to "keep ourselves in the love of God", because we never get out of it, do we? We are always in the love of God. Don't know why Jesus even wrote those letters to the seven Churches.
Jude_1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

And of course, there is no need to "take heed". Because, as you said, "Christians no longer rebel against God". Silly Paul, thinking that he needs to tell us to "continue in them". What?? Does he think we won't?
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Yes, Christians repented of "dead works" and I have known Christians to repent of dead works as Christians. I have also known Christians to repent of many other sins while Christians. Remember, sin is anything that is not of Christ, not of the Father and not authored by the Holy Spirit.

Axehead

How do we "keep ourselves in the love of God" or "abide in him", or "continue in" the doctrine?
We believe on Jesus.
This is what the good fight of faith is about.
1Tim 6:12-14
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life (John 3:16), whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession (confessing Jesus with your mouth,Rom 10:9) before many witnesses.
I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
That thou keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus) without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Are you suggesting that believing on Jesus is not enough and there is more to be done for our salvation?

As for chastening, this is in regards to our faith/believing on Jesus.
James 1:2-4
count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

Heb 12:11
Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it

Haz,

"No one who lives (menōn, “abides”) in Him keeps on sinning."

This is not talking about all BACs who have been sanctified positionally.
This is not talking about BACs who are living in unrepented-of sin.

This is talking about BACs who are co-operating with being sanctified progressively.
This is only talking about those BACs who are actually living in Him,
i.e. those who are presently walking "in Christ".

Like I said in post 3, all Christians abide in Christ and therefore cannot be charged with sin.

But you still have not offered any scripture to support the doctrine you follow.

 

[Axehead]

How do we "keep ourselves in the love of God" or "abide in him", or "continue in" the doctrine?
We believe on Jesus.
This is what the good fight of faith is about.
1Tim 6:12-14
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life (John 3:16), whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession (confessing Jesus with your mouth,Rom 10:9) before many witnesses.
I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
That thou keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus) without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Are you suggesting that believing on Jesus is not enough and there is more to be done for our salvation?

As for chastening, this is in regards to our faith/believing on Jesus.
James 1:2-4
count it all joy when you fall into various trials,knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

Heb 12:11
Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it

We are definitely talking two different languages, and I'm too old to learn a new one. Stay in His peace.

Axehead

 

[justaname]

Thinking on righteousness, holiness, and sanctification there is nothing we can add to Jesus' sacrifice. Nothing else is needed for the blood of Christ is fully sufficient.

Thinking on gratitude and love for His paying my debt there is nothing I can withold from Him including my very life for His namesake. How can I not want to live loving and serving Him?

Progressive sanctification....maybe not the best choice of wording. How about learning to love (agape) perfectly?

 

[Axehead]

Are you suggesting that believing on Jesus is not enough and there is more to be done for our salvation?

Of course not!! What makes you think that? All you have to do is believe?

James_2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Not wait a minute, is James trying to say that you can't just believe? Can faith alone save us? James was not yet enlightened, was he?

Php_2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I did not know we could obey "much more". Isn't just obeying enough? Why much more? Who can do "much more"? Why "more" at all?

And, what is all this talk about work, work, work (out your salvation with fear and trembling)?

Paul was a confused and silly man, wasn't he?

I bet you don't talk to others the way Paul talked to the church. Good thing, because all you have to do is "just believe".

 

[haz]

All you have to do is believe?

James_2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Not wait a minute, is James trying to say that you can't just believe? Can faith alone save us? James was not yet enlightened, was he?

Php_2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I did not know we could obey "much more". Isn't just obeying enough? Why much more? Who can do "much more"? Why "more" at all?

And, what is all this talk about work, work, work (out your salvation with fear and trembling)?

You quoted James 2:14, and as we both know James 2 also says that faith without works is dead.

The works that shows our faith confirms whether we believe on Jesus. Hence your question as to whether believing on Jesus is enough, is not an issue anyway.

Consider the example given in James 2:14-17
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

What works do Christians do that shows our faith?
Jesus was asked what works we should do and he answered that we are to believe on him, John 6:29.

And how does that fit with the example given in James 2:15 of clothing the naked and feeding the hungry?
Who are the naked?
It's the lost, the spiritually naked, who lack the robes of righteousness, the garment of salvation.
Isa 61:10
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,

And who are the hungry?
It's the lost, the spiritually hungry who lack Christ our spiritual food.
1Cor 10:3,4
all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

Christians let our light (Christ) shine. That is we preach the gospel of the kingdom (believe on Jesus) to the lost, who are the spiritually naked and spiritually hungry. These are works that shows our faith.
Matt 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Thinking on righteousness, holiness, and sanctification there is nothing we can add to Jesus' sacrifice. Nothing else is needed for the blood of Christ is fully sufficient.

Thinking on gratitude and love for His paying my debt there is nothing I can withold from Him including my very life for His namesake. How can I not want to live loving and serving Him?

Progressive sanctification....maybe not the best choice of wording. How about learning to love (agape) perfectly?

I see "progressive" sanctification as misleading wording, as it suggests that our salvation/sanctification is dependent upon more than Jesus Christ sacrifice.

But I agree that loving one another is important as Christ himself commanded us to love one another, 1John 3:23, John 13:34.
And love does no ill to another. Love also forgives 7x70, which we certainly need with our failings and misunderstandings.
We Christians love one another and show the same love/grace to others as God showed to us, forgiving one another 7x70.

And in having the same love/grace towards one another as God showed us, we confirm our belief in the gospel that God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in him will have everlasting life.

 

[Axehead]

Yes, only believe. The 1100 commands and directives in the NT are really only suggestions.

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Heb_5:9)

You can test the spirits and discern who is or who is not a true follower of Jesus Christ.

* Accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior requires a daily commitment to turn away from self, Satan and sin and obey him.
* Loving God is manifested in obeying Him.
* Saving faith requires and includes obeying Him.
* Repentance, confession, and baptism require obeying Him.
* Obedience is necessary for one to stand justified before the Lord in the Judgment Day.

Obedience is essential to salvation. We must be "doers of the word."
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[Note what happens to liars - Rev. 21:8; John 15:5,6.]

1 John_3:6-8,10 -
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

James_2:18-19
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Axehead
By the way, I am not talking about Christians that walk as Jesus walked, but rather people that call themselves Christians but only talk the talk and live like a "child of darkness".

That is who Paul is talking about, too.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

 

[John Zain]

Like I said in post 3, all Christians abide in Christ and therefore cannot be charged with sin.

But you still have not offered any scripture to support the doctrine you follow.

I present to thou all of the epistles, which were written to the churches!

These constantly warn about the dire consequences of living in SIN.

My personal favorite is Romans 6:15-23, but I very much doubt that
you comprehend Paul's extremely tactful method of warning this church
(which was not founded by him) because he desired to be a welcome
visitor in the future. Plus, he doesn't like to risk scaring the pants off
new believers ... by telling them outright that their salvation is conditional.

News Flash ...
BACs are really supposed to be taught first and foremost by the Holy Spirit,
as opposed to self-appointed motor-mouths who stand behind pulpits.
'Tis a much wiser and safer way to do business with the Lord.

 

[haz]

Yes, only believe. The 1100 commands and directives in the NT are really only suggestions.

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Heb_5:9)

Christians do obey his commandments.
What are his commandments that we keep?
See 1John 3:23
1: Believe on Jesus.
2: Love one another.

Regarding your claim of 1100 commandments we Christians are to keep, can you list them and show scripture detailing what the minimum standard of obedience to them is required for us to be considered to be practicing righteousness?

Obedience is essential to salvation. We must be "doers of the word."
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The "doers of the word" are those who believe on Jesus, just as that thief on the cross did. Such have fought the good fight of faith.

1Tim 6:12-
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life (John 3:16), whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession (confessing Jesus with your mouth, Rom 10:9) before many witnesses.
I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
That thou keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus) without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

But, those who are NOT doers of the word are those who are like the man who beholds himself in a mirror but then forgets what he looks like when he puts the mirror down, James 1:24. This is speaking of those who accept Christ and the righteousness and holiness we have through him, but then forget this and turn back to the law to determine righteousness by works.

And who is the "liar"?
See 1John 2:22
"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ".

Remember it's the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

1 John_3:6-8,10 -
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

This confirms what I showed from scripture in post 3. Christians cannot be charged with sin. We cannot sin in that we're covered by Christ's righteousness, holiness, sinlessness.

1Cor 6:18
"Every sin a man does is OUTSIDE the body" ( of Christ that we abide in).

James_2:18-19
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble..

Note that it says "believest that there is one God".
The issue throughout scripture is about rebellion against God in seeking to establish self righteousness.
The demons do not submit to God's righteousness.
The demons do not want accept that Jesus is the Christ.
The demons reject righteousness by faith.

I am not talking about Christians that walk as Jesus walked, but rather people that call themselves Christians but only talk the talk and live like a "child of darkness".

That is who Paul is talking about, too.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

I understand your concern about Christians who behave badly.
But whilst no Christian is perfect in behavior, I don't see how any of us can argue where the cut off point (based on behavior) is in determining whether the perpetrator is not really a Christian. King David committed adultery and premeditated murder, yet God put away his sin. King David did suffer consequences for his bad choices.
Would you consider any Christian today who commits adultery and murder a "child of darkness"?

Can you show from scripture details on what level of bad behaviour determines whether one is lost or not?

BTW, to sow to the flesh is to be in unbelief. Some professing Christians sow to the flesh in that they preach righteousness by works of the law.

But to sow to the spirit is to believe on Jesus. Those who continue to fight the good fight of faith, keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus, "without spot, unrebukable" are those who sow to the spirit.

I present to thou all of the epistles, which were written to the churches!

These constantly warn about the dire consequences of living in SIN.

My personal favorite is Romans 6:15-23, but I very much doubt that
you comprehend Paul's extremely tactful method of warning this church
(which was not founded by him) because he desired to be a welcome
visitor in the future. Plus, he doesn't like to risk scaring the pants off
new believers ... by telling them outright that their salvation is conditional.

News Flash ...
BACs are really supposed to be taught first and foremost by the Holy Spirit,
as opposed to self-appointed motor-mouths who stand behind pulpits.
'Tis a much wiser and safer way to do business with the Lord.

Again I suggest you read my post #3.
Also if you can quote the scriptures that your thinking of from the epistles then I can explain how what I've been saying supports them.

 

[Axehead]

Christians do obey his commandments.
What are his commandments that we keep?
See 1John 3:23
1: Believe on Jesus.
2: Love one another.

Regarding your claim of 1100 commandments we Christians are to keep, can you list them and show scripture detailing what the minimum standard of obedience to them is required for us to be considered to be practicing righteousness?

The "doers of the word" are those who believe on Jesus, just as that thief on the cross did. Such have fought the good fight of faith.

1Tim 6:12-
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life (John 3:16), whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession (confessing Jesus with your mouth, Rom 10:9) before many witnesses.
I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
That thou keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus) without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

But, those who are NOT doers of the word are those who are like the man who be beholds himself in a mirror but then forgets what he looks like when he puts the mirror down, James 1:24. This is speaking of those who accept Christ and the righteousness and holiness we have through him, but then forget this and turn back to the law to determine righteousness by works.

And who is the "liar"?
See 1John 2:22
"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ".

Remember it's the din of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

This confirms what I showed from scripture in post 3. Christians cannot be charged with sin. We cannot sin in that we're covered by Christ's righteousness, holiness, sinlessness.

1Cor 6:18
"Every sin a man does is OUTSIDE the body" ( of Christ that we abide in).

Haz,

I'm talking about those who call themselves Christians but do not keep his commandments. They can't and won't keep his word because the love of God is not in them.

I'm not talking about those who do keep His word, are sowing to the Spirit and walking in the love of God. Who will lay any charge to God's elect?

Calling oneself a Christian means nothing.Our self pronouncements mean squat. What God thinks of us is what's important.

Do you agree with this verse from John?
I John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Preach the word, let men examine themselves to see if they be in the faith.

Axehead

 

[haz]

Haz,
I'm talking about those who call themselves Christians but do not keep his commandments. They can't and won't keep his word because the love of God is not in them.

To help me understand your point about keeping his commandments, do you mean believe on Jesus and love one another (1John 3:23) OR do you mean the law of righteousness written and engraved in stones?

 

[Axehead]

To help me understand your point about keeping his commandments, do you mean believe on Jesus and love one another (1John 3:23) OR do you mean the law of righteousness written and engraved in stones?

I am thinking more about His law that is written in our "new" hearts by His Spirit. We don't walk by outward rules and regulations and ordinances but by the inward law of Christ.

Gal_6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

2Cor_3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Eze_36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze_36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze_36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jer_31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

THE NEW MAN


Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col_3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

The attitude of a true believer:
Psa_40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.


A true believer knows what another true believer "looks" like.
John_10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

 

[haz]

I am thinking more about His law that is written in our "new" hearts by His Spirit. We don't walk by outward rules and regulations and ordinances but by the inward law of Christ.

Gal_6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

2Cor_3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Eze_36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze_36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze_36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jer_31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

THE NEW MAN


Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col_3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

The attitude of a true believer:
Psa_40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.


A true believer knows what another true believer "looks" like.
John_10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

A true believer keeps Christ's commandments, 1John 3:23.
His 2 commandments are:
1: Believe on Jesus
2: Love one another.

Is this what you refer to?

Or do you mean the "1100 commands and directives" you mentioned before?

You also quoted 1John 3:6-9 in an earlier post. Do you accept that in Christ, Christians CANNOT sin?

1Pet 4:1 confirms this by saying we've "CEASED from sin".

I ask these questions to try to understand the doctrine you propose.

 

[Axehead]

A true believer keeps Christ's commandments, 1John 3:23.
His 2 commandments are:
1: Believe on Jesus
2: Love one another.

Is this what you refer to?

Or do you mean the "1100 commands and directives" you mentioned before?

You also quoted 1John 3:6-9 in an earlier post. Do you accept that in Christ, Christians CANNOT sin?

1Pet 4:1 confirms this by saying we've "CEASED from sin".

I ask these questions to try to understand the doctrine you propose.

For some reason, I don't think you "ask these questions" to "try to understand" (and I am not proposing a "doctrine").

I said earlier, "we are speaking two different languages" and am convinced now that we are. There is some kind of comprehension problem. Not sure what it is, but let's move on.

All the best to you.

 

[justaname]

18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.
1 John 5:18-21

I find these verses relevant to the OP...especially verse 18