1John 3:5-6

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justaname

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3:5–6. The seriousness of sin is further underscored by the consideration that Christ appeared so that He might take away our sins. And in Him is no sin. The Incarnation brought into the world the One who is totally sinless and who had as an objective the removal of sin from the lives of His own (cf. John 1:29; Heb. 9:28a). It follows logically from this that a person who is (“abides”) in a sinless Person must himself be sinless, for he has a sinless, regenerate nature.
This is the inescapable logic of the text. But a different point is suggested by the NIV‘s rendering: No one who lives (menōn, “abides”) in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him. A widely held explanation of this verse is that a believer “does not sin habitually,” that is, sin is not his way of life. However, the Greek text has no words to represent phrases such as “keeps on” or “continues to” or “habitually.” These phrases are based on an understanding of the Greek present tense which is now widely in dispute among New Testament scholars (see, e.g., S. Kubo, “1 John 3, 9: Absolute or Habitual?” Andrews University Seminary Studies 7. 1969:47–56; C.H. Dodd, The Johannine Epistles, pp. 78–81; I. Howard Marshall, The Epistles of John, p. 180). It cannot be shown anywhere in the New Testament that the present tense can bear this kind of meaning without the assistance of other words. Such a view is invalid for this verse and also for 1 John 3:9.

Nor is John saying that sinless perfection must be achieved, and that those who fail to do so lose their salvation. Such a notion is foreign to John’s argument and to all of Scripture.

John’s point is simple and straight-forward. Sin is a product of ignorance and blindness toward God. “No one who sins has seen Him or known Him” (v. 6b).
Sin can never come out of seeing and knowing God. It can never be a part of the experience of abiding in Christ. “No one who abides in Him sins” (v. 6a). But though the meaning of this is not really open to question, there has seemed to be an inconsistency between such assertions and John’s earlier insistence that a believer can never claim to be without sin (1:8). The solution to this problem has been suggested by the statement in 3:3 in which the purification of the one “who has this hope in Him” is comparable in its nature to the purity of Christ (“just as He is pure”). From this it follows that the regenerate life is, in one sense, an essentially and fundamentally sinless life. For the believer sin is abnormal and unnatural; his whole bent of life is away from sin.
The fact remains, however, that Christians do not experience the sinless life perfectly on this earth; hence 1:8, 10 remain true. The two ideas are not really incompatible. The Christian still experiences a genuine struggle with the flesh and overcomes its impulses only by the help of the Holy Spirit (cf. Gal. 5:16–26).
Paul’s thinking also conforms with this view. In his struggle with sin he was able to conclude, “Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it” (Rom. 7:20). In this way Paul could perceive sin as not a real part of what he was at the most inward level of his being (cf. Rom. 7:25). When he wrote, “I no longer live, but Christ lives in me” (Gal. 2:20), he implied the same thing. If Christ alone really lives, sin can be no part of that experience. Insofar as God is experienced by a believer, that experience is sinless. (Cf. comments on 1 John 3:9.)


3:9. As was pointed out in connection with verse 6, adding such phrases as “continue to” and “go on” to John’s statements about sinning is not justified on the basis of the Greek text. As before, the statements are absolute. One who is born of God (cf. 2:29; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18) does not sin precisely because God’s seed remains in him, and he cannot sin because he has been born of God. “God’s seed” is His nature, given to each believer at salvation (John 1:13; 2 Peter 1:4). The point here is that the child partakes of the nature of his Parent. The thought of a sinless Parent who begets a child who only sins a little is far from the author’s mind. As always, John dealt in stark contrasts. All sin is devilish (1 John 3:8); it does not stem from the believer’s regenerate nature, God’s seed, but the child of God cannot and does not sin. The explanation here is the same as that given in verse 6. The “new man” (or “new self”; Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) is an absolutely perfect new creation. By insisting on this point, John was seeking to refute a false conception about sin. Sin is not, nor ever can be, anything but satanic. It can never spring from what a Christian truly is at the level of his regenerate being.

Bible Knowledge Commentary

Taken from the Pillar New Testament Commentary: The Letters of John

It is very difficult to decide between these various options, and maybe no solution is entirely satisfactory. The habitual/occasional distinction fails because the meaning of the present tense in Greek does not support this distinction as those who advocate this view claim. The idealistic/realistic distinction which implies that believers idealistically do not sin but realistically do sin does not provide an adequate basis for distinguishing the children of God from the children of the devil on the grounds that the children of God do not sin, whereas the children of the devil do. The already/not yet distinction fails for the same reason. To distinguish two forms of perfectionism, the orthodox and the heretical, which acknowledge and deny the possibility of believers sinning respectively, does not provide a key to understanding the way the children of God and the children of the devil can be distinguished on the grounds of their not sinning and sinning respectively. The suggestion that the claims to sinlessness mentioned in 3:6–9 are quotations of the slogans of the secessionists, something his readers would have recognised, does not allow a distinguishing of the children of God from the children of the devil on the grounds of not sinning and sinning respectively. None of these suggestions, therefore, is satisfactory.
It may be that there is no satisfactory resolution of the tension between 2:1 and 3:6–9. However, if we recognize the connection between sin and anomia (rebellion) in 3:1–10, we might say that the sin which distinguishes the children of the devil is the sin of the devil, rebellion or anomia, and it is this sin that it is impossible for believers to commit because God’s ‘seed’ remains in them and they cannot commit it.
 

williemac

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Wonderful post,my brother. My perspective is very similar. I wonder how many people actually think about the fact that John said those who are born of God CAN NOT SIN. I personally do not think he was speaking of the rebellion of the devil. Sin is described as transgression of law. The devil's rebellion was not in that category.

John made an observation about what he termed "all that is in the world" (2:16). He mentioned three things; the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. My opinion is that these three categories were represented in the three temptations of Jesus Christ. The one that is constantly overlooked by a few people on this site is the third one. They are so focused on overcoming the first one that I think the more vital point is being missed.

Typically, sin is thought of in terms of the lust of the flesh. But Lucifer offended in another area. He left his God given role and determined to sit on the throne as God. I think there can be no coincidence that we are told God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud.The funny thing about righteousness is that one cannot be declared righteous by God, no matter how moral this person is, by way of his obedience to the law. The reason is that pride comes into play. Self righteousness is a spoiler. The man in Luke 18:10-14 who went away justified was the sinner, not the man who was doing everything right in his own eyes.

In light of these things, I see the wisdom in God's solution to make righteousness something that is imputed. It has become a free gift. It comes as part and parcel of the new man in the new birth. This is from His seed, as you mentioned. The old man is declared dead, crucified with Christ. God, who calls things that are not as though they were, is in relationship with our new man and in His eyes, we can not sin. The part of us that contains the sin nature as it is called, is the flesh, the old man.The dead guy. We are identifed according to the new man, the new nature, the righteousness that is contained within us that came into us freely by grace, through faith. Therefore we who are born again CAN NOT SIN, for His seed remains in us. And this leads to Paul's incredible observation that " it is no longer I who sin, but sin in me". Does sin still exist within us? Yes. We have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7). But that sin is not attributed to us.

Incredible to some as it may seem, our sin is not imputed to us, and His righteousness is imputed to us. All because of our faith in Him. And this is how God successfully deals with the pride of life. Paul declared to the Philippians..." not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God by faith" (Phil.3:9). God's cure for the pride of life is to remove any and all opportunity it might have for a foothold. Righteousness is not placed on our account by anything we ourselves do or don't do. And through faith, neither is sin.

so here is the incredible truth of the new covenant. Even though we actually can be drawn away and sin in the flesh, it is not held to our account in relation to the qualification for life. In terms of that particular account, our sin is remembered no more by God. It has been dealt with by our Savior and He is our advocate. So, since our righteousness did not come to us by way of our own obedience to the law, it cannot be removed from us through our own failure to fulfill the law. Therefore in the courts of God's justice, we can not sin. If we were to now be declared sinners, it would be a failure to uphold the righteous integrity of His seed in us. Sin cannot be attributed to the new man, to His seed in us. Conclusion: He who is born of God does not, and can not...sin.
 

haz

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williemac said:
Conclusion: He who is born of God does not, and can not...sin.
I share a similar understanding

Christians are not perfect in physical behavior, but, our standing in Christ is a position of no sin.

A Christian's life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
I no longer live but Christ lives in me, Gal 2:20.
so we, being many, are one body in Christ, Rom 12:5


And in Christ there is no sin, 1John 3:5.
For one to say a Christian "sins" is like saying there is sin in Christ.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect?

Rom 8:2
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

1Cor 6:18
Flee (spiritual) sexual immorality (with Hagar, who is symbolic for self-righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24). Every sin that a man does is outside the body (of Christ that we abide in), but he who commits (spiritual) sexual immorality (with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24) sins against his own body (Christ)

The only way a Christian can be charged with sin/transgression of the law (1John 3:4) is for them to turn back to the law to attain righteousness by works.

Gal 2:18.
if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner

Remember that whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

Christians cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law as we're not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.

Christians cannot be charged with the sin of unrighteousness (1John 5:17) as our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.


1Pet 4:1
Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) has ceased from sin,

Gal 2:15
We who are (spiritual) Jews by nature (Rom 2:28,29), and not sinners of the Gentiles (unbelievers)

1Pet 4:18
if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Note here 2 different groups described.
Group 1: Righteous and saved
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinner
Either we're righteous (in Christ) OR we're a sinner. There is no 3rd group described as a righteous sinner.

1John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God (1John 5:1) doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

As long as we continue to believe on Jesus we cannot be charged with sin, as the scriptures above confirm.

Jesus truly set us free from sin, John 8:34-36.
 
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John Zain

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williemac said:
Incredible to some as it may seem, our sin is not imputed to us, and His righteousness is imputed to us. All because of our faith in Him. And this is how God successfully deals with the pride of life. Paul declared to the Philippians..." not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God by faith" (Phil.3:9).
Somehow, you guys are going to have to find a way to reconcile Scripture,
instead of desperately hangin' on to your favs!
Try these on for size ...

[SIZE=10pt]Obedient believers practice righteousness, which leads them to the necessary holiness[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9.5pt]whether slaves of sin leading to death, or slaves of obedience leading to righteousness … [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9.5pt]so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](Romans 6:16-19)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “Pursue ... holiness, without which no one will see the Lord" [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](Hebrews 12:14)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](Acts 10:35)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] in all goodness, righteousness and truth),[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9.5pt]finding out [/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt]what is acceptable to the Lord.” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](Ephesians 5:8-10)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “But you, O man of God, flee these things (sins)[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] and pursue righteousness” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](1 Timothy 6:11)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “All Scripture is profitable for …[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] instruction in righteousness” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](2 Timothy 3:16)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “we, having died to sins, might live for[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] (the practicing of) righteousness” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](1 Peter 2:24)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “you know that everyone who practices righteousness [/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt]is born of Him.” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](1 John 2:29)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness [/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt]is righteous[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt]” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](1 John 3:7[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “I[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt]n this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9.5pt]Whoever does NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]1 John 3:10)[/SIZE]
 

justaname

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evangelist-7 said:
Somehow, you guys are going to have to find a way to reconcile Scripture,
instead of desperately hangin' on to your favs!
Try these on for size ...

Obedient believers practice righteousness, which leads them to the necessary holiness

“you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether slaves of sin leading to death, or slaves of obedience leading to righteousness …
so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:16-19)

“Pursue ... holiness, without which no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14)

“whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35)

“Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth),
finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:8-10)

But you, O man of God, flee these things (sins) and pursue righteousness” (1 Timothy 6:11)

All Scripture is profitable for … instruction in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16)

“we, having died to sins, might live for (the practicing of) righteousness” (1 Peter 2:24)

“you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)

“let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous(1 John 3:7)

“In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God (1 John 3:10)
No one disagrees with these verses. Nor do we think we are not called to live righteously. This thread seeks to gather a greater understanding of a certain text. Please feel free to give input to this verse in particular.
 

williemac

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evangelist-7 said:
Somehow, you guys are going to have to find a way to reconcile Scripture,
instead of desperately hangin' on to your favs!
Try these on for size ...

[SIZE=10pt]Obedient believers practice righteousness, which leads them to the necessary holiness[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9.5pt]whether slaves of sin leading to death, or slaves of obedience leading to righteousness … [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9.5pt]so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](Romans 6:16-19)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “Pursue ... holiness, without which no one will see the Lord" [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](Hebrews 12:14)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](Acts 10:35)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] in all goodness, righteousness and truth),[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9.5pt]finding out [/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt]what is acceptable to the Lord.” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](Ephesians 5:8-10)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “But you, O man of God, flee these things (sins)[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] and pursue righteousness” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](1 Timothy 6:11)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “All Scripture is profitable for …[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] instruction in righteousness” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](2 Timothy 3:16)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “we, having died to sins, might live for[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] (the practicing of) righteousness” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](1 Peter 2:24)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “you know that everyone who practices righteousness [/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt]is born of Him.” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](1 John 2:29)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness [/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt]is righteous[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt]” [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt](1 John 3:7[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt])[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]•[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] “I[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt]n this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9.5pt]Whoever does NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God[/SIZE] [SIZE=9pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]1 John 3:10)[/SIZE]
Brother, no one is against these instructions. And you are mistaken in suggesting our (my, in past conversations) position defends or condones unrighteous behavior. Practicing righteousness, however, is not translated as fulfilling all the law all the time. It has to do with the mindset more than the actual works. In Rom.7, Paul revealed his mindset, that he agreed with the law. Logically, just this mindset alone would be enough for one to have a determination to live righteously. But if such a determination could equip a person with the ability to satisfy the righteous requirement of the law, then surely the bible would not have concluded "there is none righteous, no not one". And Paul certainly would not be admitting there was still sin in his life, though because of his mindset, he was no longer identified with it.

Now here we have a contradiction on the surface. The bible decalres there is none righteous, and John declares that one can indeed be righteous. However, John also said he wrote these things to talk his readers out of sinning. Then he admitted in 1John 2:1 that if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father (Jesus).

I think we all will agree that by way of the new birth, we have taken on the righteousness of Jesus within our new man. And Jesus has instructed us, not to behave out of our own nature, but rather to bear fruit...specifically the fruit of the spirit. Therefore we practice rightoeusness because we are righteous, not the other way around. Righteousness was given to us as a gift, imputed to us by grace through faith. This is what fruit is all about. A tree can not bear apples unless it first IS and apple tree. There is no way that any man can produce his own righteousness. Agreed?

What we are talking about is the qualification for eternal life. This is not in the same category as our instructions as believers. The instructions come after the fact. Eternal life is given on day one. Read again in John 5:24, where Jesus declared that we HAVE eternal life, having passed from death to life, and WE WILL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT. On the other hand, your posts are declaring judgment on just about every line.

I interpret your position as though our salvation hangs upon the degree of success we have in behaving oursleves. On the side, I would like to suggest that this is a weak way of dealing with behavior. I dont think God is into weakness. However, it might look that way at first glance under the old covenant. God had made lofty promises to the people based on their compliance with the law. However, later on we find that they could not satisfy the law to its full righteous requirement. Therefore it was revealed that it was their tutor. It, by way of man's failure, taught them (and us) that mankind needs to be saved. We needed a Savior.

So why do you insist on putting us right back under the system that was used to condemn mankind? That system had/has a purpose that gets fulfilled when a person acknowledges his sin and comes to God for forgiveness and mercy. And as we can see in Luke 18:10-14, it is this humble stance that God responds to. He resists the proud. He will exalt the humble and abase those who rest upon their own personal laurels of behavior.

I suspect that though you may agree with this as a first step, you think it no longer applies. However, scripture fortunately serves to prevent this kind of thinking. The example for our benefit was that of the Galatian church. In turning to the law for justification, they were fallen from grace. The law, don't forget, deals with moral behavior. All these instructions you are pointing out deal with moral behavior. No problem. We should heed the exhortation to good works and righteousness. However, if you or anyone connect them with justification for life, you will be resisted by myself (and others.)

Fruit happens. The only way to prevent it is to dig a hole and bury it. This is a show of defiance and resistance to our God given role. Daily behavior alone has no place in determining this extreme opposition to God.
Behavior is day to day. Burying one's talent is a more purposeful and permanent mindset. Please don't confuse one with the other. Cheers! Blessings in Christ.
 

logabe

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In John 3:5 the Greek word used for born again is "gennao", which also means
begotten. What's the difference? One means you are born from a women, but
the other means you are begotten from the Father.

Jesus was talking about receiving the Spirit, which we know comes from the
Father, so the correct interpretation should be begotten from above. That is how
God impregnates us and the seed (word) of God is planted in our souls to begin to
grow inside of us until we are ready to be born from the woman, which is, your
body.

We are carrying a child inside of us, until the appointed time of God when He will
bring forth that promised child. It is called the manifestation of the Sons of God, and
they will receive immortality to go forth and teach the ways of the Kingdom. Rom.
8:19 says,

19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly
for the revealing of the sons of God.

Paul uses this opportunity to show us how we travail in pain like a woman having
birth pains until her child in delivered. Romans 8:22 says,

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and
suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

My point is, we have to recognize that manchild and reckon him as already having the
authority to bring forth the Kingdom of God and reckon the Old Man Adam to be dead.
Romans 6:11 says,

11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but
alive to God in Christ Jesus.

We understand that we are not actually dead, but we reckon ourselves or call what is
not as though it was. We call ourselves alive or as though we have already received
immortality, although we haven't as of yet. Paul admonished us to walk in this mindset.

When you do walk in this type of faith, God imputes righteousness to your account and
your works are by His Power and not yours. That's what keeps us humble so we don't
think we are doing the works within our selves as Willie said.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe







 

Axehead

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It's not that we can't sin any more, but now with the Holy Spirit, we don't have to. We are "no longer slaves to sin", and therefore all the scriptures that Evangelist listed, make complete sense to one that has been set free from the power of sin, but don't make sense to those still "under the power of sin". The Holy Spirit is more than justified in telling us to stop sinning. They would be unfair commands if we did not have the power to to "not let sin have dominion over us, anymore".

The Church is settling for a lesser (false) Gospel that does not preach the scriptures that evangelist listed.

Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. Heb_12:14
 

John Zain

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williemac said:
Now here we have a contradiction on the surface.
Yes, on the surface ... and everywhere else.

The contradiction remains ...
BACs today think they were pronounced righteous for all time and eternity,
butski ...
they are only counted righteous (in God's eyes, not theirs), IF they live righteously!

Everything has always been conditional ... and it still is.
At least, that's what Scripture says.

Just from the perspective one in training to be a Newbie.
 
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Born_Again

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Okay, I'll chime in. I recently handed it all over to Christ in the last few months so I can give BAC perspective. If you truly want to live and walk in Christ, you don't want to sin and you make the largest effort to avoid it. You bite your tongue when ill hits your lips. You cast out impure thoughts. You love the sinner and hate the sin. You make an effort. It doesn't come naturally at first to not sin. But you get very close. I'm sure in time you can be pretty close to sinless but your whole life has to change. You still slip up because the devil does not want you to follow Christ. I have personally felt that battle. God wanted me back and the devil knew it was bad news he lost me... And to bad so sad, he lost me and God won me back and brought me home. As a BAC you have to be very aware of the dangers of evil trying to get you to fall back but God will not let that happened if you truly walk with Him. It's a tough battle to go through but so worth it.
 

haz

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Feb 17, 2011
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evangelist-7 said:
Somehow, you guys are going to have to find a way to reconcile Scripture,
instead of desperately hangin' on to your favs!
Try these on for size ...

Obedient believers practice righteousness, which leads them to the necessary holiness

“you are that one’s slaves whom you obey,
whether slaves of sin leading to death, or slaves of obedience leading to righteousness …
so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:16-19)

“Pursue ... holiness, without which no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14)

“whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35)

“Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth),
finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:8-10)

But you, O man of God, flee these things (sins) and pursue righteousness” (1 Timothy 6:11)

All Scripture is profitable for … instruction in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16)

“we, having died to sins, might live for (the practicing of) righteousness” (1 Peter 2:24)

“you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)

“let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous(1 John 3:7)

“In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God (1 John 3:10)
Hi,

All these scriptures you quote do not support your point.

How does one do righteousness?
Option 1: obey the law of righteousness PERFECTLY.
OR
Option 2: believe on Jesus and our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

To pursue righteousness and holiness refers to us believing on Jesus. This is God's will for us, John 6:40.

But the claim that it refers to obeying the law, is error. It's not supported by the scriptures you referred to.
We cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.
 

John Zain

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haz said:
All these scriptures you quote do not support your point.
How does one do righteousness?
Hey haz ... that's what you need to find out ... or else!
How does one live righteously ... that is the question.
 

justaname

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I don't conprehend why it has to be an either or position. Are we called to be moral? Yes!
Are we deemed righteous through faith in Christ? Yes!

Does it have to be one or the other? No!

Also I think it is relevant to understand what to be holy Scripturally is...to be set apart for God's purpose. Remember there were holy articles in the tabernacle. These articles had no moral capacity.
 

haz

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evangelist-7 said:
Hey haz ... that's what you need to find out ... or else!
How does one live righteously ... that is the question.
I already answered. See my previous post.

God's will is for us to believe on Jesus, John 6:40.
We overcome the world when we believe on Jesus, 1John 5:5.
The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" believed on Jesus. His faith was counted for righteousness (just as it is for all Christians) and he went to paradise, and that without any obedience to the law as part of his salvation.

Are you suggesting that Christians must attain some minimum standard of obedience to the law to be considered to be practicing righteousness and pursuing it? If so can you show scripture detailing what that minimum standard of obedience to the law is?

My understanding from scripture is that Christians are running a race or fighting the good fight of faith (believing on Jesus). And in believing God's promise of eternal life if we continue to believe on Jesus, then our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

1Tim 6:12-
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life (John 3:16), whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession (confessing Jesus with your mouth, Rom 10:9) before many witnesses.
I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
That thou keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus) without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Paul fought that fight and won.
2Tim 4:7,8
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Righteousness is all about keeping the faith/believing on Jesus.
There is no amount of obedience to the law that we can do that will confirm or add to our righteousness by faith.
In fact if we were to preach that obedience to the law is required to "practice" or "pursue" righteousness, then we are following a lukewarm mix of works of the law and grace (which cannot be, Rom 11:6).
Remember that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.
 

John Zain

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haz said:
God's will is for us to believe on Jesus, John 6:40.

We overcome the world when we believe on Jesus, 1John 5:5.

My understanding from scripture is that Christians are running a race or fighting the good fight of faith (believing on Jesus). And in believing God's promise of eternal life if we continue to believe on Jesus, then our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

Righteousness is all about keeping the faith/believing on Jesus.
There is no amount of obedience to the law that we can do that will confirm or add to our righteousness by faith.
There are many different verses describing what God's will is for us!

There are many other things we need to overcome other than just the world.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
So, another thing to figure out is ... What do we need to overcome?

Yes, the #1 most important requirement is to endure in the faith until our life ends!
E.G. Only the martyrs for Jesus during the very end-times
will rule and reign with Him for 1000 years (Rev 20:4).

Heads Up for the near future
To take the mark of the beast is to go along with a spiritual death sentence!
To welcome the mark is to welcome Hell ... Guaranteed.
What's better? ...
Worshipping Satan whilst thou eat ... OR ... Going to Heaven for eternity.
 

haz

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evangelist-7 said:
There are many different verses describing what God's will is for us!

There are many other things we need to overcome other than just the world.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
So, another thing to figure out is ... What do we need to overcome?
]
1Thess 4:3 says the will of God is our sanctification (which all Christians have when we believe on Jesus, Heb 10:10), and also that we abstain from (spiritual) fornication (with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law Gal 4:24).
So we see that this scripture describing God's will is consistent with that found in John 6:40 that we believe on Jesus.

Can you provide other scripture saying "The will of God is........."?

Can you also provide scripture showing what other things you claim that we have to overcome?

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" obeyed the will of God that we believe on Jesus. That thief was an overcomer.
Are you saying that we who live on are required to do even more than those with death bed salvation, to receive eternal life?
If so can you show scripture detailing what extra requirements we must do to receive the same outcome as that thief who just believed on Jesus?
 

IanLC

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"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Romans 6:1-2)
 

John Zain

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haz said:
1Thess 4:3 says the will of God is our sanctification
(which all Christians have when we believe on Jesus, Heb 10:10) ...
Let's do one thing at a time.

There are several levels of sanctification:
1) positional sanctification -- BACs have been set apart for God's use
2) progressive sanctification -- BACs are to co-operate with the Holy Spirit
----------------------------in being santified unto holiness
... and I've heard there are more!
 

haz

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evangelist-7 said:
Let's do one thing at a time.

There are several levels of sanctification:
1) positional sanctification -- BACs have been set apart for God's use
2) progressive sanctification -- BACs are to co-operate with the Holy Spirit
----------------------------in being santified unto holiness
... and I've heard there are more!
Do you have any scriptures supporting what you've heard?

I've heard others argue for "progressive" sanctification before, but none have been able to offer any scriptures to support such doctrine.

Regarding sanctification, note Heb 10:10.
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

As you can see from Heb 10:10, sanctification is not progressive.
To say sanctification is progressive is to suggest that Christ's sacrifice failed to complete the job of sanctification.

BTW, regarding "being santified unto holiness" again this is not supported in scripture.

Note Rom 11:16
if the firstfruit (Christ, 1Cor 15:20) is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

The suggestion that Christians have to be "progressively" sanctified unto holiness, contradicts scripture.
Christians abide in Christ.
Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3
Because Christ (the firstfruit) is holy, thus we Christians are also holy, as Rom 11:16 confirms.
 

justaname

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haz said:
Do you have any scriptures supporting what you've heard?

I've heard others argue for "progressive" sanctification before, but none have been able to offer any scriptures to support such doctrine.

Regarding sanctification, note Heb 10:10.
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ oncefor all.

As you can see from Heb 10:10, sanctification is not progressive.
To say sanctification is progressive is to suggest that Christ's sacrifice failed to complete the job of sanctification.

BTW, regarding "being santified unto holiness" again this is not supported in scripture.

Note Rom 11:16
if the firstfruit (Christ, 1Cor 15:20) is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

The suggestion that Christians have to be "progressively" sanctified unto holiness, contradicts scripture.
Christians abide in Christ.
Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3
Because Christ (the firstfruit) is holy, thus we Christians are also holy, as Rom 11:16 confirms.
This further supports the OP...