2. Israel in the End Times

[Naomi25]

As for God gathering the ten tribed "house of Israel", yes, that does matter, because God said He would do it...

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying it doesn't matter in that it doesn't matter if it happens or not. I'm saying that when it happens, God will be the one to make it happen, not man. And because God will be doing it, it will be up to him to make sure he's got the right tribe or bloodline. And I think we can be sure that he will hit the nail on the head! So my point was that we shouldn't work ourselves up about 'who's who' and where they reside currently, because ultimately, God will handle it.

And their number, though we don't know a specific number, is important too because it fulfills prophecy that Jacob's seed would become as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea, and especially "a company of nations" (Gen.35). In Genesis 49, Jacob is giving messages of prophecy to each of his twelve sons for the end of this world. That means all 12 tribes of Israel exist all the way to the second coming of Christ Jesus. In Ezekiel 39, God remarks how when He ends this world, the whole world will then know about the ten tribed "house of Israel" and what happened to them, and they themselves will then know they (thier ancestors) had been scattered and lost their heritage (like Hosea 1 showed would happen). In other words, the ten lost tribes are going to wake up as to who they really are, i.e., not Gentiles at all, but only scattered among the Gentiles.

Well, I don't know. Don't you find it remarkable that even after nearly 2000 years the Jewish people (or most of them), have retained their Jewish heritage. And by that I mean...they know they are Jews. What other people group in history, that has been conquered and utterly scattered for that long has done the same? None that I can think of. Even those who do not reside in Israel itself still close ranks in Jewish communities in the countries where they live. As I said, it's remarkable.

Another reason why knowing about those Scriptures concerning the ten tribes is important is because they actually made up the majority of the peoples of the old nation of Israel. The house of Judah involved 3 tribes while the house of Israel involved 10 tribes. God scattered the 10 tribes out of the holy land first to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. The house of Judah remained in the holy land, and only around 120 years later would go into their own captivity to Babylon for 70 years with a small remnant of them returning to Jerusalem. And the remnant of Judah that returned to Jerusalem was a very small number compared to the total number of Israelites prior to their scattering.

Likewise today, the number of Jews there in the state of Israel is still a very small number compared to the number of total 12 tribe Israelites in the world. So the renewed state of Israel does not signify Jesus' Salvation, definitely not that, because before our Lord Jesus will return, the Antichrist or pseudo-Christ must first appear in Jerusalem for the end of this world, and proclaim himself as God (2 Thess.2; Matt.24:23-26).

These two facts are interesting, but are they important enough to hinge our end times theology on? The point, I believe, of the renewed state of Israel today, is not to be a perfect measure stick of the numbers of the particular tribes for us, the Gentiles to count. Or even for the Jews themselves to count. The purpose, which it is succeeding in quite well, I believe, is to make us (both Gentile and Jew - should they wake to hear it) realize that God is not yet done with Israel. It is also to make Israel a burdensome stone to all Nations. And boy, is she doing that! How can one, tiny piece of land cause so much worldwide umbrage?

 

[Davy]

Davy, I exceeded 10,000 characters, so I eliminated the quote.

Israel will become a blessing to the nations when the resurrected 12 apostles go about accomplishing the Great Commission, given solely to them (see Mt 28:16-20) , of which there is no record of ever being started. This is another one of those Jewish things that Today's church has stolen.

Your sense of Church history involving Christ's Apostles is confused.

Christ's ministry had one purpose, to convert Israel, as a nation, to accept Christ as the promised Messiah, so that Israel's promised Kingdom of Heaven would start. It certainly wasn't to start a Church. He did talk to a couple of Gentiles but He didn't teach the Gospel of the Kingdom to them. None of the rules or directions given to Israel, only, during Christ's ministry apply to us Gentiles.

That's confusion too. Jesus Christ was sent to die on the cross for the sins of the world and to defeat the devil. The idea of His being sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel I already told you. It was because the ten lost tribes of Israel (house of Israel) were scattered among the Gentiles, and the majority of Jews in Judea rejected Him; their rejection because God had blinded the Jews to The Gospel like Apostle Paul showed in Romans 11. To this day, the majority of the Jews are still blinded to The Gospel of Jesus Christ, refusing Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah. And Paul did preach the kingdom to Gentiles, so your doctrine is blind.

From Gen 12 through Acts 9, only Israel were in view and the only Gentiles that received any blessings were proselytes. The 1st and only Gentile to be ministered to by any of the 12 and the 1st Gentile to be involved with the so-called church during Acts was Cornelius, by Peter, in Acts 10. This was 7 or 8 years after Acts 2, in the upper room, where there were no Gentiles, not one. The gifts were a sample of the New Covenant, which belonged only to Israel, according to scripture. They were given during Acts for the sole purpose of witnessing to Israel, who required signs and wonders. The entire purpose of the Acts period was the same as Christ's ministry, to convert Israel. In Mt 23:39 and other places, Christ said He would not return until Israel accepted Him. This was well understood by the 12 - see Acts 3:19-21. All this still holds true and that's why Christ has not yet returned. Had Israel accepted Christ in the Gospels or Acts, the New Heavens and New Earth would now be about 300 years old.

Again you're confused. Because Jesus specifically chose Paul to preach The Gospel to the Gentiles, but also to kings and to the children of Israel. It was impossible to preach to lost Israel and not also preach to the Gentiles at the same time, since lost Israel was scattered among the Gentiles and no longer knew their Israelite heritage, even as it still is today. And Matthew 23:39 was spoken to the UNBELIEVING JEWS in Jerusalem, which has NOTHING to do with scattered Israel. It's about when Jesus returns and they see Him coming in the clouds, like Revelation 1 reveals; and Zechariah 12 shows how they will mourn for Him. In Luke 23, Jesus showed how they will want for the hills and mountains to fall on them because of their shame when Jesus comes back.

The Gospel of the Kingdom, the same gospel that Christ taught, which was not a gospel of salvation, like Paul's, was preached during the entirety of Acts, to the nation Israel, by the 12 and by Paul. Paul always went to the Jews first and that's what he preached to them. Those Jews that believed were born again. Sometimes, with Jews that had already believed and were born again, and with all Gentiles, he would preach his gospel of salvation, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Those that believed made up the church. The ONLY purpose of Gentiles being involved at all was to provoke Israel to jealousy, so they might believe in Christ. During Acts, Israel had all the privileges, Rom 9:4, "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;" If Israel had all these things, that means the Gentiles had none of them. Not having the service of God meant that the Gentiles couldn't teach or preach. The Gentiles that were saved were grafted into Israel, the good olive tree - they were part of Israel. That meant that the Acts period was, in essence, all Israel.

There is no separate gospel of the kingdom. The kingdom message is simply part of the one Gospel of Jesus Christ:

Acts 28:30-31
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
KJV

There's your famous blind doctrine of a double gospel's split verse between your imaginery Israelite Church and imaginery Gentile Church. You all say right there at Acts 28 is when the Gentile Church started with Paul's preaching. Yet there is Paul preaching the KINGDOM to Gentiles!

In Romans 9, Paul quoted from Isaiah and Hosea, which was prophecy to Israel only back in the OT. Yet Paul quoted that also about and to Gentile believers.


Well, it's clear you're not going to heed God's Word as written about these things. You instead of drunk on the doctrines of men like Darby who started Dispensationalism in the 1800's, and then his later followers who started Ultra-Dispensationalism that try to say only Paul's Epistles are for Gentiles while the idea of kingdom is only for Israel. That's that same ole' split Darby tried to do when he started Dispensationalism with falsely teaching that Christ's Church reigns in Heaven with Jesus while Israel has its kingdom setup again on earth, which is a bunch of malarckey and not written anywhere in God's Word. It was all dreamed up to try and create more support for his false Pre-Tribulational Rapture theory.

So for brethren who want to know the Truth about these things, here it is:

1. Our Lord Jesus is our KING, of us Gentiles too. And we also, WITH the believers of Israel, are part of His Kingdom that will be established upon this earth, begining with His return.

2. Our Lord Jesus will return only once. He is not coming to do a secret rapture of the Church before the tribulation. The Church will... go through the event of "great tribulation" He forewarned about. His return to gather His Church is at the end of that tribulation period.

3. When Jesus gathers His Church on the last day of this world, His return will then involve prophecy in Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 about His return to set foot upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem where He ascended to Heaven from. It is in Jerusalem, upon this earth, which is where Jesus with His elect Church will reign over the nations from during the 1,000 years of Revelation 20.

4. There is only ONE Gospel of Jesus Christ, not two or three, etc. There is not one gospel for Israel, and another gospel for Gentiles. The One Gospel of Jesus Christ is for ALL believers, regardless of race or national creed.

5. God will re-establish the kingdom of Israel like it was of old per His promise, and that is what Jesus and His elect Church will have dominion over. For the Jews who refuse to believe this, they need to be reminded of what Jesus said about His future Kingdom:

Luke 13:25-29
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
KJV

 

[Davy]

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying it doesn't matter in that it doesn't matter if it happens or not. I'm saying that when it happens, God will be the one to make it happen, not man. And because God will be doing it, it will be up to him to make sure he's got the right tribe or bloodline. And I think we can be sure that he will hit the nail on the head! So my point was that we shouldn't work ourselves up about 'who's who' and where they reside currently, because ultimately, God will handle it.

I understand what you're saying, but that would be to downplay His promises and not understand why He said He would gather them. In Ezekiel 39, He shows how He will be The One to destroy Israel's enemies, and will then reveal lost Israel to the whole world so the world... will know, and even to lost Israel themselves. It's kind of emphatic. So I don't know how you'd take an emphatic prophecy like that and tone it down, just out of fear of it offending some Gentiles. Instead, what it should do is make even the faith of Gentile believers all the more stronger, because it shows God will do what He says, and no man will prevent it. We as Gentile believers should not be jealous of Israel, because we are part of Israel according to Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 with the "commonwealth of Israel" idea.

Well, I don't know. Don't you find it remarkable that even after nearly 2000 years the Jewish people (or most of them), have retained their Jewish heritage. And by that I mean...they know they are Jews. What other people group in history, that has been conquered and utterly scattered for that long has done the same? None that I can think of. Even those who do not reside in Israel itself still close ranks in Jewish communities in the countries where they live. As I said, it's remarkable.

I don't find it remarkable at all, because God showed in His Word that Judah would remember, unlike the ten tribes, and I believe Him. Even among the ten tribes, God showed that a small remnant of them would still know. These are OT prophecies, especially in Isaiah and Hosea, which most brethren are not familiar with. But the other problem is, that there have been many crept in unawares among the Jews who became religious Jews and have no heritage from the tribes of Israel. Those are in the majority in the state of Israel today, and are in power in Israel, while the Sephardic Jews there who have their lineage from the house of Judah are in the minority. Yet ultimately, it's still about who believes on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ.

These two facts are interesting, but are they important enough to hinge our end times theology on? The point, I believe, of the renewed state of Israel today, is not to be a perfect measure stick of the numbers of the particular tribes for us, the Gentiles to count. Or even for the Jews themselves to count. The purpose, which it is succeeding in quite well, I believe, is to make us (both Gentile and Jew - should they wake to hear it) realize that God is not yet done with Israel. It is also to make Israel a burdensome stone to all Nations. And boy, is she doing that! How can one, tiny piece of land cause so much worldwide umbrage?

Yes, it is important, because our Lord Jesus and His Apostles, and even the OT prophets, revealed when and how God will re-establish the kingdom of Israel under His Son in the future, and how He will gather Israel back to the lands promised their fathers (along with believing Gentiles), and how those in Christ Jesus relate to being a part of that future kingdom on earth. Those in Christ Jesus are to INHERIT WITH faithful Abraham, remember? (Gal.3). So if someone doesn't care about their future heritage, like Esau who profaned his birthright, then not thinking this matter important would apply to them.

Isa 54:2-3
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
KJV

Another thing it does with understanding this matter is that it reveals the many fake doctrines of men that get started from the Biblicall illiterate who keep going around in circles in the New Testament Books while pretty much completely disregarding the prophecies in the Old Testament Books which are still yet to come to pass, and even many of the prophecies that did already occur which our Lord Jesus and His Apostles pointed to with preaching The Gospel. Many bethren are lied to about the OT prophets, thinking it's all dead history when it is not; this because the NT quote the prophets so much of when The Gospel became established.

 

[Davy]

These two facts are interesting, but are they important enough to hinge our end times theology on? The point, I believe, of the renewed state of Israel today, is not to be a perfect measure stick of the numbers of the particular tribes for us, the Gentiles to count. Or even for the Jews themselves to count. The purpose, which it is succeeding in quite well, I believe, is to make us (both Gentile and Jew - should they wake to hear it) realize that God is not yet done with Israel. It is also to make Israel a burdensome stone to all Nations. And boy, is she doing that! How can one, tiny piece of land cause so much worldwide umbrage?

About that specifically...

I really don't pay much attention to all the political hype in the world about the state of Israel. It's true, the existence of the state of Israel again does p**s off Satan and his followers today, but that's not God's point for establishing them. He did it because of His promise to David and Jerusalem...

1 Kings 11:11-13
11 Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, 'Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.

12 Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.

13 Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.
KJV

1 Kings 11:29-32
29 And it came to pass at that time when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him in the way; and he had clad himself with a new garment; and they two were alone in the field:

30 And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces:

31 And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:

32 (But he shall have one tribe for my servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel
KJV

The larger question should be, just why did God split old Israel in the first place. He gives us the answer to that in 1 Kings 11 too, and that we should especially pay attention to, because He first gave the warning to Israel about falling away from Him in Deut.4 & 28, showing what would happen to them.

On a larger birdseye view of things, God knew this would happen, as He used Israel's split and scatterings to take The Gospel also to the Gentiles, and then both scattered Israel and remnants of the Gentiles would believe together, and become Christ's Church. Likewise with the future gathering, it will be both scattered Israel along with believing Gentiles, i.e., Christ's Church. Most likely, that will also involve the city cube of Revelation 21.

 

[Ac28]

Um...by your own definition, "Ac28" would also be a "denomination". Welcome friend!!!

You seem to be one of those persons that look for the little teeny picky things, because they're the safest. I wrote that long post and that was the only thing I wrote that you disagreed with? Surely you could have found something with some importance.

Ac28 is the only group I know that doesn't live in a box. It's totally open-ended and the only basics are that you obey 2Tim 2:15, about right division, believe that the entire Bible is truth, with no exceptions, take every word literally, that is not part of the 8000 figures of speech in the Bible. It's the only group I know of that follow these tenants, to the letter. They never make assumptions and they don't pick and choose. The only groups that rightly divide (cut correctly,chop) God's word are dispensationalists. 2Tim 2:15, Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. According to scripture, then, that would make dispensationalists the only Christians approved unto God and the the only Christians that needeth not be ashamed. I am positive that the people that have the greatest knowledge of what is truth and what isn't truth in the Bible are all Acts 28:28 dispensationalists. For non-dispensationalists, finding truth in many facets of the Bible is impossible. For Acts 28 dispensationalists, all truth is discoverable. Acts 28 dispensationalism is popular in Australia. For your own sake, you should check it out.

 

[Naomi25]

You seem to be one of those persons that look for the little teeny picky things, because they're the safest. I wrote that long post and that was the only thing I wrote that you disagreed with? Surely you could have found something with some importance.

Ac28 is the only group I know that doesn't live in a box. It's totally open-ended and the only basics are that you obey 2Tim 2:15, about right division, believe that the entire Bible is truth, with no exceptions, take every word literally, that is not part of the 8000 figures of speech in the Bible. It's the only group I know of that follow these tenants, to the letter. They never make assumptions and they don't pick and choose. The only groups that rightly divide (cut correctly,chop) God's word are dispensationalists. 2Tim 2:15, Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. According to scripture, then, that would make dispensationalists the only Christians approved unto God and the the only Christians that needeth not be ashamed. I am positive that the people that have the greatest knowledge of what is truth and what isn't truth in the Bible are all Acts 28:28 dispensationalists. For non-dispensationalists, finding truth in many facets of the Bible is impossible. For Acts 28 dispensationalists, all truth is discoverable. Acts 28 dispensationalism is popular in Australia. For your own sake, you should check it out.

No...I'm not normally someone who only picks that tiny little thing because safest, ignoring the rest. The reason I've done so this time is because it seems to me that your whole premise..."you should listen to me because my view is the only view that doesn't sit within those same, foolish, denominational views", was rendered void by your own definition of denominations. To me, that put in question everything you had to say from the get go. So tell me...if you cannot even sort out the definitions of denominations, why should I trust what you say? My answer? I cannot.

 

[Naomi25]

I understand what you're saying, but that would be to downplay His promises and not understand why He said He would gather them. In Ezekiel 39, He shows how He will be The One to destroy Israel's enemies, and will then reveal lost Israel to the whole world so the world... will know, and even to lost Israel themselves. It's kind of emphatic. So I don't know how you'd take an emphatic prophecy like that and tone it down, just out of fear of it offending some Gentiles. Instead, what it should do is make even the faith of Gentile believers all the more stronger, because it shows God will do what He says, and no man will prevent it. We as Gentile believers should not be jealous of Israel, because we are part of Israel according to Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 with the "commonwealth of Israel" idea.

Well...is it downplaying it? Or is it just leaving the minutiae details to God? Because in my mind, the fact that Israel (the land) is now back in Jewish hands is God showing the Gentiles all this! This has been my point all along. The rebirth of the nation in the exact land of their forefathers. The seeming miraculous nature of their protection of it in the face of overwhelming odds, the incredible wealth and flourishing that they are seeing, the way the land itself has gone from dry and dead to green and blooming. Anyone with an eye and an ear has to recognize God's hand here. And yes...I expect, in regards of Ezekiel 39, that at some point future God may show his hand in again, miraculously destroying Israel's enemies.
And I'm not toning the prophecy down out of fear of offending Gentiles! Goodness, where did you get that! My point was simply....I doubt that we will be able to (or even the Jews will be able to) know which tribes are which. But that we mustn't fear that the prophecies wouldn't come to pass, because God knows who belongs to which bloodline. He will ensure everything he has decreed will come to pass. That's all. God knows.

I don't find it remarkable at all, because God showed in His Word that Judah would remember, unlike the ten tribes, and I believe Him. Even among the ten tribes, God showed that a small remnant of them would still know. These are OT prophecies, especially in Isaiah and Hosea, which most brethren are not familiar with. But the other problem is, that there have been many crept in unawares among the Jews who became religious Jews and have no heritage from the tribes of Israel. Those are in the majority in the state of Israel today, and are in power in Israel, while the Sephardic Jews there who have their lineage from the house of Judah are in the minority. Yet ultimately, it's still about who believes on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ.

You should find it remarkable, even though it is in scripture. And I don't mean "unbelievable". I just mean, well...incredible! Just think about it. The OT paints for us a picture of the Jewish people that can't turn away from God fast enough. Marrying outside of themselves, turning to false gods, adopting the cultural practices of other people groups. And yet now, after 2000 years of being essentially 'cut off' as God's people, cast out into the nations, marrying as they chose....they have clung to who they are. No, not all of them are religious Jews, and that can only be expected.
But still, the rest of them?...Remarkable! Just like God's grace...remarkable!

Yes, it is important, because our Lord Jesus and His Apostles, and even the OT prophets, revealed when and how God will re-establish the kingdom of Israel under His Son in the future, and how He will gather Israel back to the lands promised their fathers (along with believing Gentiles), and how those in Christ Jesus relate to being a part of that future kingdom on earth. Those in Christ Jesus are to INHERIT WITH faithful Abraham, remember? (Gal.3). So if someone doesn't care about their future heritage, like Esau who profaned his birthright, then not thinking this matter important would apply to them.

Isa 54:2-3
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
KJV

Another thing it does with understanding this matter is that it reveals the many fake doctrines of men that get started from the Biblicall illiterate who keep going around in circles in the New Testament Books while pretty much completely disregarding the prophecies in the Old Testament Books which are still yet to come to pass, and even many of the prophecies that did already occur which our Lord Jesus and His Apostles pointed to with preaching The Gospel. Many bethren are lied to about the OT prophets, thinking it's all dead history when it is not; this because the NT quote the prophets so much of when The Gospel became established.

Wait. You're saying I need to know about the 10 tribes now, because I'm going to rule with them and Christ...in this age? Or are you talking about the Millennial Kingdom? Because if it's the later, again, I'm not sure it's essential knowledge for me to be able to be able to pick out of a crowd people of the 10 tribes. I'm fairly certain I can leave that to God.
Actually...I'm fairly certain I can leave that to God in both cases.
Biblical Illiteracy. Well...you may be right. There are many out there who are. And I certainly don't know my OT like I should or want to. But I do know this: Christ and his Apostles interpret the OT through the light of his coming...in other words, we are to look at the OT and interpret it through the NT. And that changes some things. Some it doesn't...I believe you are right...some things are yet to come to pass. But too many people look at the bible as chapter 1 and chapter 2, with no real connection between them apart from the fact that they sit next to each other. That's not true. The OT is the shadow which only makes full sense when you see what it was the light was shining on to cast the shadow in the first place (in this case, Jesus!).

 

[Davy]

You seem to be one of those persons that look for the little teeny picky things, because they're the safest. I wrote that long post and that was the only thing I wrote that you disagreed with? Surely you could have found something with some importance.

Ac28 is the only group I know that doesn't live in a box. It's totally open-ended and the only basics are that you obey 2Tim 2:15, about right division, believe that the entire Bible is truth, with no exceptions, take every word literally, that is not part of the 8000 figures of speech in the Bible. It's the only group I know of that follow these tenants, to the letter. They never make assumptions and they don't pick and choose. The only groups that rightly divide (cut correctly,chop) God's word are dispensationalists. 2Tim 2:15, Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. According to scripture, then, that would make dispensationalists the only Christians approved unto God and the the only Christians that needeth not be ashamed. I am positive that the people that have the greatest knowledge of what is truth and what isn't truth in the Bible are all Acts 28:28 dispensationalists. For non-dispensationalists, finding truth in many facets of the Bible is impossible. For Acts 28 dispensationalists, all truth is discoverable. Acts 28 dispensationalism is popular in Australia. For your own sake, you should check it out.

Your whole foundation is unstable simply because it is based on assumptions from men's doctrines instead of staying with The Word of God as written.

For example, Dispensationalism was fabricated by John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain, along with the Pre-Tribulational Rapture theory. His dispensationalist doctrines were designed to support the Pre-trib Rapture theory that he also preached. And just because some of his dispensationalist ideas do come from Scripture does not mean the whole of it is Biblical. One of his wrong ideas involving the Church is that the Church will be raptured before the tribulation and will remain in Heaven for Christ's 1,000 years reign while Israel is established as a kingdom again on earth by themselves. What God's Word actually shows is that Christ's Church will go through the time of "great tribulation" and only gathered after that tribulation, and then will reign over the re-established kingdom of Israel on earth, with Jesus, for the 1,000 years (Matt.24:29-31; Rev.22:14-15).

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

That is only for Christ's future Millennium reign with His elect Church. Only then will those of the "synagogue of Satan" come to bow at the feet of Jesus and His elect on earth. Just the FACT that those will bow at the feet of Christ's elect shows that is ON EARTH, and NOT up in the clouds.


Rev 5:10
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

And that is emphatic that Christ's elect Church will reign ON THE EARTH.

 

[Davy]

Well...is it downplaying it? Or is it just leaving the minutiae details to God? Because in my mind, the fact that Israel (the land) is now back in Jewish hands is God showing the Gentiles all this! This has been my point all along. The rebirth of the nation in the exact land of their forefathers. The seeming miraculous nature of their protection of it in the face of overwhelming odds, the incredible wealth and flourishing that they are seeing, the way the land itself has gone from dry and dead to green and blooming. Anyone with an eye and an ear has to recognize God's hand here.

I recognize God's hand in it according to His promises, like I showed in 1 Kings 11 where He promised to always leave one tribe there for His servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city He chose. I never doubted that prophecy. And I don't see the planting of trees in the state of Israel being a sign, because the Jews aren't even in possession of the majority of the lands God promised their fathers! But I can see how Jews today would like the world to think that God is 'now'... re-establishing them per the OT prophets, but He is not. He is simply preparing the deceived world for the coming of the Antichrist to Jerusalem to play God. And the unbelieving Jews will be the ones most ultimately deceived in that. Thus the deceived Jews thinking God is approving them being still rebellious against His Son will all the more aid in their deception to the coming pseudo-Christ that He is going to send them. We in Christ Jesus are to be aware of that, and not fall to that trap with the unbelieving Jews.

And yes...I expect, in regards of Ezekiel 39, that at some point future God may show his hand in again, miraculously destroying Israel's enemies.

It's only one of the biggest events that's prophesied to occur on the last day of this world when Jesus returns. It's what the battle of Armageddon is about. Ezekiel 39 is that final chapter set for the last day of this world. The Ezek.40 and forward chapters are about Christ's future Millennial reign and forward to God's Eternity.

And I'm not toning the prophecy down out of fear of offending Gentiles! Goodness, where did you get that! My point was simply....I doubt that we will be able to (or even the Jews will be able to) know which tribes are which. But that we mustn't fear that the prophecies wouldn't come to pass, because God knows who belongs to which bloodline. He will ensure everything he has decreed will come to pass. That's all. God knows.

The subject of the ten lost tribes could alienate Gentile believers on Jesus, because much of the Biblical subject does not include Gentiles in the history of it, but it does include the believing Gentile in regard to the promises God gave Israel under Christ Jesus. There still is a remnant of Israel today under Christ Jesus that knows their heritage, and has kept their genealogy from the days of old, even though Satan's children continually try to destroy it.

You should find it remarkable, even though it is in scripture. And I don't mean "unbelievable". I just mean, well...incredible! Just think about it. The OT paints for us a picture of the Jewish people that can't turn away from God fast enough. Marrying outside of themselves, turning to false gods, adopting the cultural practices of other people groups. And yet now, after 2000 years of being essentially 'cut off' as God's people, cast out into the nations, marrying as they chose....they have clung to who they are. No, not all of them are religious Jews, and that can only be expected.
But still, the rest of them?...Remarkable! Just like God's grace...remarkable!

I for one have always believed what Paul taught about the unbelieving Jews that God blinded per Romans 11. But don't get too hung up on the return of Jews to form the state of Israel since 1948, because that is not the real return of the 12 tribes which God foretold through His OT prophets. The majority of them still reject Jesus as The Christ, and many of them will remain in unbelief all the way up to Jesus' return, and will instead accept the coming Antichrist in place of Jesus. So while you're preaching a deceived Jewish salvation, I'm preaching to Christ's Church a warning for the very end of this world according to what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles taught for the end.

Wait. You're saying I need to know about the 10 tribes now, because I'm going to rule with them and Christ...in this age? Or are you talking about the Millennial Kingdom? Because if it's the later, again, I'm not sure it's essential knowledge for me to be able to be able to pick out of a crowd people of the 10 tribes. I'm fairly certain I can leave that to God.
Actually...I'm fairly certain I can leave that to God in both cases.

I never said you have to know. My point was that it's important to realize from Scripture; it's one of the main reasons for the distinction of endtime prophecy. Per God's Word, after the split of old Israel, prophecy often differentiates between the "house of Judah" (Jews) and the "house of Israel" (ten lost tribes, and thus the majority of Israelites). Since you said nothing about the Gen.35 and Gen.48 prophecies regarding the "company of nations" and "multitude of nations", it shows there's quite a bit of Bible prophecy you are not aware of, and thus you most likely don't know who that applies to today, nor where or how it applied to God's people.

Biblical Illiteracy. Well...you may be right. There are many out there who are. And I certainly don't know my OT like I should or want to. But I do know this: Christ and his Apostles interpret the OT through the light of his coming...in other words, we are to look at the OT and interpret it through the NT. And that changes some things. Some it doesn't...I believe you are right...some things are yet to come to pass. But too many people look at the bible as chapter 1 and chapter 2, with no real connection between them apart from the fact that they sit next to each other. That's not true. The OT is the shadow which only makes full sense when you see what it was the light was shining on to cast the shadow in the first place (in this case, Jesus!).

I don't generalize the differences between OT and NT like that. I see both OT and NT as a whole that cannot be separated. And when the NT contains a prophecy that's still yet future, I see greater details of it first given back in the OT prophets. Makes sense, because why should God have to tell us all over again with repeating those details in the NT again? This thing many brethren find difficult to understand, for many cannot grasp that more detail of a future matter could exist in the OT Books, since they've been partially brainwashed by the world into thinking Old Testament means dead history.

As for looking at The Bible as chapter 1 and chapter 2, etc., that's the only real way to look at it for the new babe in Christ Jesus who is just learning. Start at Genesis 1 and go all the way through to the end of Revelation 22, chapter by chapter and line upon line. Takes real discipline to do that, but that's the kind of discipline Apostle Paul was talking about in 2 Tim.2:15. In Isaiah 28 God showed this about study of His Word:

Isa 28:9-13
9 Whom shall He teach knowledge? and whom shall He make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom He said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
KJV

The main idea there is that of God mocking the lazy regarding their view of line upon line study of His Word. To them, His Word would be like a chore, precept upon precent, line upon line, here a little, and there a little, so that they might go and fall backwards, be broken, snared, and taken. By that meaning taken and snared in deception. One of the things Satan did in Luke 4 in trying to tempt Jesus was to add one short phrase to Ps.91 which changed the meaning. How then will the new babe in Christ know when a preacher is actually preaching God's Word, or preaching his own word? By first going through all of God's Word line upon line, that's how. In Hebrews 5, Paul covered how the believer is eventually to get off the 'milk' of God's Word and get into the "strong meat". Too many brethren are still suckin' on the milk bottle today.

 

[Naomi25]

I recognize God's hand in it according to His promises, like I showed in 1 Kings 11 where He promised to always leave one tribe there for His servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city He chose. I never doubted that prophecy. And I don't see the planting of trees in the state of Israel being a sign, because the Jews aren't even in possession of the majority of the lands God promised their fathers! But I can see how Jews today would like the world to think that God is 'now'... re-establishing them per the OT prophets, but He is not. He is simply preparing the deceived world for the coming of the Antichrist to Jerusalem to play God. And the unbelieving Jews will be the ones most ultimately deceived in that. Thus the deceived Jews thinking God is approving them being still rebellious against His Son will all the more aid in their deception to the coming pseudo-Christ that He is going to send them. We in Christ Jesus are to be aware of that, and not fall to that trap with the unbelieving Jews.

It's only one of the biggest events that's prophesied to occur on the last day of this world when Jesus returns. It's what the battle of Armageddon is about. Ezekiel 39 is that final chapter set for the last day of this world. The Ezek.40 and forward chapters are about Christ's future Millennial reign and forward to God's Eternity.

But hang on...follow me here. If it's God's plan to have unbelieving Israel back in her land...to rebuild a temple. To mistakenly follow the Antichrist, to then be persecuted for being Jews, then see God miraculously intervene and destroy her enemies. And then come to Jesus in record numbers because of all these things....doesn't that mean that the current Jews in the land now in fact are part of God's plan? Even though they are not believing...yet?

 

[Davy]

But hang on...follow me here. If it's God's plan to have unbelieving Israel back in her land...to rebuild a temple. To mistakenly follow the Antichrist, to then be persecuted for being Jews, then see God miraculously intervene and destroy her enemies. And then come to Jesus in record numbers because of all these things....doesn't that mean that the current Jews in the land now in fact are part of God's plan? Even though they are not believing...yet?

No, Jerusalem is still desolate like Jesus left it. Even though God has kept His promise to always leave one tribe there for His servant David's sake, and Jerusalem's sake, He still has not brought back all His promises to their fathers there in the state of Israel. His birthright blessings are still primarily in the Christian nations. The state of Israel has no temple, it has no king, it does not rule the gate of its enemies, it still does not have the best land resources, nor does it have as many people as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea, which all these things are the birthright promises from God to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel).

 

[Naomi25]

No, Jerusalem is still desolate like Jesus left it. Even though God has kept His promise to always leave one tribe there for His servant David's sake, and Jerusalem's sake, He still has not brought back all His promises to their fathers there in the state of Israel. His birthright blessings are still primarily in the Christian nations. The state of Israel has no temple, it has no king, it does not rule the gate of its enemies, it still does not have the best land resources, nor does it have as many people as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea, which all these things are the birthright promises from God to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel).

No...but for them to build a temple, they have to be there. Which they are. You cannot say "it's only prophetic at the second the first temple stone is laid". No...prophecies are like bricks in a road. From Abraham to King David to Jesus. It wasn't suddenly "ta da! Here's Jesus!" No...we saw the first bricks laid out. Likewise, we cannot just dismiss what we see now, just because the temple is not yet present. We must say, "this is an important step towards that time". Clearly God is clearing the way for the temple to be built. It would have been harder for it to happen should the land still be in 'Palestinian' hands.

Also....I'd have to say that at present, Israel does alright in regards to "ruling the gate of it's enemies". They are pretty legit when it comes to security, intelligence, etc. You don't mess with them. It also has incredible land resources! My goodness, they are a rich, rich nation! The natural gas and oil deposit's they've found in the last couple of years alone make them wealthy, to say nothing of all the innovations they've created to make all their produce the envy of many nations eye. Seriously...if you do some research, the amount of new medical research, technological advancement and agricultural innovations coming out of that country make you sure that it's been blessed.

Oh...and there is no way...literally, that Israel could fit "as many stars of the sky, or sands of the sea" in it's boarders. So I think we can assume that that's figurative, yes?

 

[Davy]

No...but for them to build a temple, they have to be there. Which they are. You cannot say "it's only prophetic at the second the first temple stone is laid". No...prophecies are like bricks in a road. From Abraham to King David to Jesus. It wasn't suddenly "ta da! Here's Jesus!" No...we saw the first bricks laid out. Likewise, we cannot just dismiss what we see now, just because the temple is not yet present. We must say, "this is an important step towards that time". Clearly God is clearing the way for the temple to be built. It would have been harder for it to happen should the land still be in 'Palestinian' hands.

There is no need for a third temple with old covenant practices. Jesus Christ replaced all that. So their building another temple for the end of this world is only in order to fulfill prophecy about the coming Antichrist. When Jesus returns, that temple will be destroyed. What you don't seem to understand is that there is an element of the children of darkness within the orthodox Jews that knows what they're doing in supporting another temple for the tribulation time in our near future. It's in prep for their "rock", for the one they worship, i.e., Lucifer. The well-meaning deceived orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem don't see it coming because they don't believe on Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah, so they are not aware of the NT prophecies about the coming Antichrist to Jerusalem for the end of this world.

Also....I'd have to say that at present, Israel does alright in regards to "ruling the gate of it's enemies". They are pretty legit when it comes to security, intelligence, etc. You don't mess with them. It also has incredible land resources! My goodness, they are a rich, rich nation! The natural gas and oil deposit's they've found in the last couple of years alone make them wealthy, to say nothing of all the innovations they've created to make all their produce the envy of many nations eye. Seriously...if you do some research, the amount of new medical research, technological advancement and agricultural innovations coming out of that country make you sure that it's been blessed.

Israel does well in defeating its enemies along its borders. But that has been because of help from their allies the western nations. They haven't done it all by theirselves. Early on since their independence they received military aid and financial support from the western Christian nations. The U.S. still sends them financial aid. Their resources cannot be compared to the natural resources of the western Christian nations. So no use in trying to say God has fulfilled His birthright to them again, He hasn't. Nor does Israel have navies like the western Christian nations, which the western navies is a huge sign of real control of the gates of one's enemies.

Oh...and there is no way...literally, that Israel could fit "as many stars of the sky, or sands of the sea" in it's boarders. So I think we can assume that that's figurative, yes?

No, it is not a promise to Abraham that was figurative. It has come to pass, but not with the Jews, for the Jews only represent about one third of the total number of Israelites in the world; they made up only the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and some small remnants of the ten northern tribes that refused Jeroboam's golden calf idols and instead went south to side with Judah. The majority of Israel were made up of the northern ten tribes that were separated apart from Judah after 1 Kings 11 when God rent the kingdom from Solomon's son Rehoboam. Doesn't anyone study their Bible history anymore?

Only a small remnant of the "house of Judah" returned to Jerusalem after their seventy years captivity to Babylon. That is when the Jewish historian Josephus said they took the title of 'Jew'. The majority of the house of Judah actually stayed in Babylon, for God had promised them He would take care of them in that Babylon captivity and He did. Then that majority was further scattered through the countries later. The ten northern tribes had already gone in captivity to Assyria and land of the Medes about one hundred and twenty years earlier, and they were still scattered abroad in the days of the Apostles (James 1) and in the days of Josephus (100 A.D.). So the majority of the seed of all twelve tribes of Israel was scattered out of the holy land when Jesus came to die on the cross. And still today it is that way, the majority are not returning. Only a small remnant of the house of Judah has been returning to Jerusalem.

 

[Davy]

You should find it remarkable, even though it is in scripture. And I don't mean "unbelievable". I just mean, well...incredible! Just think about it. The OT paints for us a picture of the Jewish people that can't turn away from God fast enough. Marrying outside of themselves, turning to false gods, adopting the cultural practices of other people groups. And yet now, after 2000 years of being essentially 'cut off' as God's people, cast out into the nations, marrying as they chose....they have clung to who they are. No, not all of them are religious Jews, and that can only be expected.
But still, the rest of them?...Remarkable! Just like God's grace...remarkable!

Now just in case you start that "remarkable" idea again about the Jewish state of Israel that began again in 1948 by U.N. Charter vote by the nations, what is actually truly remarkable is how after the passion of Christ The Gospel was preached to the nations of Europe and Asia Minor and they believed, and God's birthright blessings then begin showing up there, and not in the area of the middle east.

Before The Gospel of Jesus Christ was preached to the western nations, those nations were steeped in all kinds of paganism, worshiping false gods that are no gods, sacrificing to idols. When The Gospel was preached to them the majority of them put away those things and worshiped God through His Son Jesus Christ. Even Britain became the first Christian nation while Rome was still in paganism. Not only was that a remarkable thing, but it was a miraculous thing. And that's was the actual showing of God's Grace.

But the belief of the majority of the western Christian nations wasn't all, God blessed them with His promises that He promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Even to this day their militaries are the most powerful in the world. And just the U.S. alone produces much more food than it can ever consume. And talk about oil resources; in North America years ago it was discovered there are oil reserves still untouched that are greater in quantity that the whole middle east and Asia put together.

And still today, the western nations have kings sitting upon thrones, Christian thrones under Christ Jesus. Christ's enemies continually teaches the world to hate those thrones, and they have tried to destroy them all, yet there many of them still are today, a thorn in the side of Lucifer's servants on earth! The reason why there is no throne of the house of David in Jerusalem today is because of how God rent the kingdom from Solomon's son, and the house of Judah fell into false worship also against Him; thus God brought the king of Babylon upon them who killed all the king of Judah's heirs except his daughters that Jeremiah had guardianship over.

And in Matthew 21, Jesus offered a parable to the Jews of how God's vineyard would be taken from them and given to another nation which would produce its fruits. That nation is the "company of nations" of Jacob, and the "multitude of nations" of Ephraim, as per the Genesis 35 & 48 prophecies, pointing to today's Christian nations.

So if you want to get on a soapbox about today's unbelieving Jews in the state of Israel today, then I can also get on my soapbox of how God kept His promises to the MAJORITY of the seed of Israel that was removed from the holy lands long ago, while that small remnant of Jews in Jerusalem/Judea has undergone a barren history since Jesus' crucifixion, and even today is preparing for a more barren history when the Antichrist shows up there in our near future and proclaims himself to be God.

 

[Naomi25]

There is no need for a third temple with old covenant practices. Jesus Christ replaced all that. So their building another temple for the end of this world is only in order to fulfill prophecy about the coming Antichrist. When Jesus returns, that temple will be destroyed. What you don't seem to understand is that there is an element of the children of darkness within the orthodox Jews that knows what they're doing in supporting another temple for the tribulation time in our near future. It's in prep for their "rock", for the one they worship, i.e., Lucifer. The well-meaning deceived orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem don't see it coming because they don't believe on Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah, so they are not aware of the NT prophecies about the coming Antichrist to Jerusalem for the end of this world.

But it's all still in God's hand. Even the 'evil and darkness'. Even Satan will end up working God's will....even as he did by having Christ crucified.
I don't think it matters why (or if) a third temple is built. Will it matter that it will ultimately be for the Antichrist? The Antichrist will only reign for a short time by God's decree, and then his Son will return to defeat him for all the World to see. It's still all God's plan.
Paul tells us that the Jews have been "blinded in part", until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in. They will not have their eyes opened until God wants them to. And that, I suspect, will include them believing the promises of the Antichrist. Still part of God's plan.

Israel does well in defeating its enemies along its borders. But that has been because of help from their allies the western nations. They haven't done it all by theirselves. Early on since their independence they received military aid and financial support from the western Christian nations. The U.S. still sends them financial aid. Their resources cannot be compared to the natural resources of the western Christian nations. So no use in trying to say God has fulfilled His birthright to them again, He hasn't. Nor does Israel have navies like the western Christian nations, which the western navies is a huge sign of real control of the gates of one's enemies.

Well, I wasn't aware that I had said God had fulfilled his birthright to them again. Fulfilled, as in complete. I don't think anything will be complete until Christ returns. My point was simply to point out what I thought was obvious. Take a step back and really look at Israel. It's a nation that has only existed for 70 years. 70 years ago that land was dry and barren and the Jewish people were coming out of the holocaust.
Even with the aid of other countries, it is nothing short of miraculous that the nation is where she is today. The infrastructure alone. The land is not green and blooming...have you seen pictures? That's not something America could have made happen with some $$ or some planes.

No, it is not a promise to Abraham that was figurative. It has come to pass, but not with the Jews, for the Jews only represent about one third of the total number of Israelites in the world; they made up only the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and some small remnants of the ten northern tribes that refused Jeroboam's golden calf idols and instead went south to side with Judah. The majority of Israel were made up of the northern ten tribes that were separated apart from Judah after 1 Kings 11 when God rent the kingdom from Solomon's son Rehoboam. Doesn't anyone study their Bible history anymore?

Nope. I still stand by figurative. Have you counted the stars in the sky? The grains of sand on a beach. On all the beaches? How many people in the world? How many people (all people, not just Jews) do they reckon this world can sustain before we all start starving to death?
There is no way that this planet can hold as many people as there are stars in the sky. The ESA estimates that in this galaxy alone is 100 billion stars. Our current population is 7 billion.

So...I mean...clearly the bible means....a lot! An innumerable number that is impossible to count. So, sure, we could be there. But again...we go back to...does it matter where in the world they are? God knows who they are, where they belong and what part he wants them to play in his end times schemes. He's set the board. Whether the games starts this year or in a hundred years doesn't matter.

Now just in case you start that "remarkable" idea again about the Jewish state of Israel that began again in 1948 by U.N. Charter vote by the nations, what is actually truly remarkable is how after the passion of Christ The Gospel was preached to the nations of Europe and Asia Minor and they believed, and God's birthright blessings then begin showing up there, and not in the area of the middle east.

Before The Gospel of Jesus Christ was preached to the western nations, those nations were steeped in all kinds of paganism, worshiping false gods that are no gods, sacrificing to idols. When The Gospel was preached to them the majority of them put away those things and worshiped God through His Son Jesus Christ. Even Britain became the first Christian nation while Rome was still in paganism. Not only was that a remarkable thing, but it was a miraculous thing. And that's was the actual showing of God's Grace.

But the belief of the majority of the western Christian nations wasn't all, God blessed them with His promises that He promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Even to this day their militaries are the most powerful in the world. And just the U.S. alone produces much more food than it can ever consume. And talk about oil resources; in North America years ago it was discovered there are oil reserves still untouched that are greater in quantity that the whole middle east and Asia put together.

And still today, the western nations have kings sitting upon thrones, Christian thrones under Christ Jesus. Christ's enemies continually teaches the world to hate those thrones, and they have tried to destroy them all, yet there many of them still are today, a thorn in the side of Lucifer's servants on earth! The reason why there is no throne of the house of David in Jerusalem today is because of how God rent the kingdom from Solomon's son, and the house of Judah fell into false worship also against Him; thus God brought the king of Babylon upon them who killed all the king of Judah's heirs except his daughters that Jeremiah had guardianship over.

And in Matthew 21, Jesus offered a parable to the Jews of how God's vineyard would be taken from them and given to another nation which would produce its fruits. That nation is the "company of nations" of Jacob, and the "multitude of nations" of Ephraim, as per the Genesis 35 & 48 prophecies, pointing to today's Christian nations.

So if you want to get on a soapbox about today's unbelieving Jews in the state of Israel today, then I can also get on my soapbox of how God kept His promises to the MAJORITY of the seed of Israel that was removed from the holy lands long ago, while that small remnant of Jews in Jerusalem/Judea has undergone a barren history since Jesus' crucifixion, and even today is preparing for a more barren history when the Antichrist shows up there in our near future and proclaims himself to be God.

Hmmm. I getting an inkling that you're not a great Israel fan, but you're fairly proud of your own Country. Fair enough. Let me clear some things up for. I don't think the current state of Israel is currently heaven sent. That they can do no wrong and I knew to view everything they do like God is behind them right now. No. Currently they are just people, unsaved and living on their own, like any other nation.
My point is....I believe the bible says God has not finished with them and that a day will come when he will draw many of them to Christ. And that what we are perhaps seeing in Israel now is the first footsteps of that. Nothing more. I am watching and waiting with interest.
As for America. Yes...she has been a shining beacon to all nations for many years. But I think she is in great danger of falling. Liberalism is rampant and the faith that many of the leaders once had is no longer there...in fact God has been kicked out of every place that matters. Sexual revolution, abortion, racism, corruption and debt...the problems are cascading and America's foundations are crumbling.
Now...I don't say all this to just pick on America. Where America goes, all other nations seem to follow. We're seeing exactly the same things here in Australia. It's a slippery slope and as Christians here we seem helpless to stop the slide.
But, like I keep saying...God has a plan, even in the darkness we have faith that his will will prevail! So I'm of good cheer, even when I see things that break my heart...if that makes sense at all.
I will say one thing about America...things got rather interesting when Donald Trump was elected. I always thought the guy was a tool. And while perhaps not the most moral of men, I am impressed with how much he has done and how he has stood up to the liberals. He is standing against an awful tide...I suppose we must pray for him.

 

[Davy]

But it's all still in God's hand. Even the 'evil and darkness'. Even Satan will end up working God's will....even as he did by having Christ crucified.
I don't think it matters why (or if) a third temple is built. Will it matter that it will ultimately be for the Antichrist? The Antichrist will only reign for a short time by God's decree, and then his Son will return to defeat him for all the World to see. It's still all God's plan.
Paul tells us that the Jews have been "blinded in part", until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in. They will not have their eyes opened until God wants them to. And that, I suspect, will include them believing the promises of the Antichrist. Still part of God's plan.

Yeah, it's still God's plan, but like Isaiah said, who has believed our report? Who is taking warning about the events to occur there in Jerusalem in our near future? Not those enthralled with another temple there and old covenant worship again, for that means deception. Thus warning the brethren is important today, and is a major part of our Lord Jesus' and His Apostle's teaching for the end of this world.

Well, I wasn't aware that I had said God had fulfilled his birthright to them again. Fulfilled, as in complete. I don't think anything will be complete until Christ returns. My point was simply to point out what I thought was obvious. Take a step back and really look at Israel. It's a nation that has only existed for 70 years. 70 years ago that land was dry and barren and the Jewish people were coming out of the holocaust.

But that's what many of the orthodox Jews have been broadcasting, i.e., the idea that the final return is happenning now, and then they try to supply evidence by what you've heard and read about the state of Israel today. Many of the Jews totally omit the Biblical fact of the ten lost tribes returning (Amos 9:9). They don't believe they exist anymore, regardless of Bible prophecy that God said He will gather the ten tribes back to the land also.

Even with the aid of other countries, it is nothing short of miraculous that the nation is where she is today. The infrastructure alone. The land is not green and blooming...have you seen pictures? That's not something America could have made happen with some $$ or some planes.

It's relative to where you go.

Nope. I still stand by figurative. Have you counted the stars in the sky? The grains of sand on a beach. On all the beaches? How many people in the world? How many people (all people, not just Jews) do they reckon this world can sustain before we all start starving to death?
There is no way that this planet can hold as many people as there are stars in the sky. The ESA estimates that in this galaxy alone is 100 billion stars. Our current population is 7 billion.

Did God mean it in the literal absolute sense? No, of course not. I'm realistic. But it's not so figurative that it doesn't mean a very, very large number, even much larger than the number of Jews in the world (around 15 million by some global estimates). How many Christians are there in the world? Maybe now you get the idea?

In Romans 9, Apostle Paul quoted from Hosea 1 about the rebellious ten tribes when God called the house of Israel 'lo ami', meaning not My people, because of how they rebelled against Him. But in final, He said where they were called Lo-ammi, they would be called the sons of the living God.

Hos 1:9-11
9 Then said God, Call his name Lo-ammi: for ye are not My people, and I will not be your God.

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not my people,' there it shall be said unto them, 'Ye are the sons of the living God.'

11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
KJV

Here is where Apostle Paul quoted that Hosea 1 passage to believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus, when Hosea 1 was specifically given as a Message to the ten tribed house of Israel:

Rom 9:25-26
25 As he saith also in Osee, 'I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
KJV

That's about the fulfillment of the "company of nations" of Jacob, and the "multitude of nations" of Ephraim, as per Genesis 35 & 48. It includes the believing Gentiles with that scattered seed of Israel that has believed on Jesus Christ. This is the 3rd time I have mentioned it.

So...I mean...clearly the bible means....a lot! An innumerable number that is impossible to count. So, sure, we could be there. But again...we go back to...does it matter where in the world they are? God knows who they are, where they belong and what part he wants them to play in his end times schemes. He's set the board. Whether the games starts this year or in a hundred years doesn't matter.

Well yes, it does matter. One of your points has been the return of many of the house of Judah back to the holy land, and the land blossuming again, God's hand in making them a nation again. One of the Biblical reasons it's important to recognize that, and really the main reason is because it marks the final generation that Jesus taught that would see the signs of the end He gave. Judah's partial return and becoming a nation again in 1948 involves Jesus' parable of a fig tree about the end.

Hmmm. I getting an inkling that you're not a great Israel fan, but you're fairly proud of your own Country. Fair enough. Let me clear some things up for. I don't think the current state of Israel is currently heaven sent. That they can do no wrong and I knew to view everything they do like God is behind them right now. No. Currently they are just people, unsaved and living on their own, like any other nation.

I'm not a fan of the orthodox Jews building another temple in Jerusalem and starting up old covenant worship again, which is against Christ Jesus. But I know it must happen per Bible prophecy for the end. God is protecting them, I have no doubt of that. But for what? For to fulfill endtime prophecy there, and in keeping His promise to David and Jerusalem that He would always leave one tribe of Israel there. I am proud of the Christian nations which God established, even though the U.S. just had a Leftist president that lied in claiming the U.S. never was a Christian nation. Every place where people accepted Jesus Christ as a people, there you can historically see God's blessings. And in nations where Jesus is hated, there you can see much of the opposite, including in the state of Israel which the majority there still reject Jesus as Messiah.

 

[Davy]

My point is....I believe the bible says God has not finished with them and that a day will come when he will draw many of them to Christ. And that what we are perhaps seeing in Israel now is the first footsteps of that. Nothing more. I am watching and waiting with interest.

I believe that too, per Romans 11. See Luke 23 though, where Jesus gave a prophecy of how they will react at His return. They will wish for the mountains and hills to fall on them, because of their shame. Zechariah 12 says they will mourn for Him. That will happen when Jesus returns, and He removes their blindness that was put upon them so The Gospel could go to the Gentiles.

But don't make the mistake of thinking that today you're seeing God's salvation there in Jerusalem with the orthodox Jews. If you think that, then what will you think when they build the new temple and start up sacrificies again? The main ones behind today's establishing of the state of Israel is the United Nations, i.e., globalists. World sensibilities right after WWII, because of what the Jews had suffered, made it prime for pushing the establishing of a homeland for the Jews. Many nations voted against it. The U.S. voted for it, as it should have. Thus God allowed... it to happen; He allowed the globalists their plan for Jerusalem and the state of Israel. Is it then God's plan, or is it the globalist's plan? It's their... plan, only that God is using them for His ultimate purpose, just like He uses the devil. So should we support those globalists just because we know ultimately God is in control? No, not any more than we would with supporting evil that the devil does when God assigns a punishing upon the rebellious. The globalists years ago called Jerusalem the, "International City of Peace". It is to be the center of control for their "one world government" plan (i.e., Antichrist's ten horned, ten crowned, seven headed beast kingdom).

As for America. Yes...she has been a shining beacon to all nations for many years. But I think she is in great danger of falling. Liberalism is rampant and the faith that many of the leaders once had is no longer there...in fact God has been kicked out of every place that matters. Sexual revolution, abortion, racism, corruption and debt...the problems are cascading and America's foundations are crumbling.

Not the rural areas of America. It's the big cities mostly that have gone the way of Cain and Sodom and Gomorrah. There are still millions of faithful Christians in the U.S. which will never fall away, no matter how much the "synagogue of Satan" tries to destroy it. What is happening in the Christian nations today was prophesied. God is allowing us to be weakened because of the coming one-world system that must happen per His Word. Trump's presidential victory against Leftist Liberalism is a sign of most of America's stance.

Now...I don't say all this to just pick on America. Where America goes, all other nations seem to follow. We're seeing exactly the same things here in Australia. It's a slippery slope and as Christians here we seem helpless to stop the slide.
But, like I keep saying...God has a plan, even in the darkness we have faith that his will will prevail! So I'm of good cheer, even when I see things that break my heart...if that makes sense at all.
I will say one thing about America...things got rather interesting when Donald Trump was elected. I always thought the guy was a tool. And while perhaps not the most moral of men, I am impressed with how much he has done and how he has stood up to the liberals. He is standing against an awful tide...I suppose we must pray for him.

In Georgetown history professor Carrol Quigley's 1960's book, Tragedy and Hope, he said that the globalist insiders figured if they could get control of 25 of the most influential newspapers in the U.S., then all the rest of the nation's newspapers would follow suit. (Quigley himself was an Insider, and Bill Clinton endorsed Quigley in his inaugural speech.) So like Trump says, 'fake news' is mostly what today's U.S. news sources are about. The globalists have control of U.S. media, education, finance, and have been working hard on controlling Christian Churches. It's getting more like communist controls each day (Communist Russia and China allows the Christian Church, but it's got to be their... version of Christianity).

 

[Naomi25]

I believe that too, per Romans 11. See Luke 23 though, where Jesus gave a prophecy of how they will react at His return. They will wish for the mountains and hills to fall on them, because of their shame. Zechariah 12 says they will mourn for Him. That will happen when Jesus returns, and He removes their blindness that was put upon them so The Gospel could go to the Gentiles.

But don't make the mistake of thinking that today you're seeing God's salvation there in Jerusalem with the orthodox Jews. If you think that, then what will you think when they build the new temple and start up sacrificies again? The main ones behind today's establishing of the state of Israel is the United Nations, i.e., globalists. World sensibilities right after WWII, because of what the Jews had suffered, made it prime for pushing the establishing of a homeland for the Jews. Many nations voted against it. The U.S. voted for it, as it should have. Thus God allowed... it to happen; He allowed the globalists their plan for Jerusalem and the state of Israel. Is it then God's plan, or is it the globalist's plan? It's their... plan, only that God is using them for His ultimate purpose, just like He uses the devil. So should we support those globalists just because we know ultimately God is in control? No, not any more than we would with supporting evil that the devil does when God assigns a punishing upon the rebellious. The globalists years ago called Jerusalem the, "International City of Peace". It is to be the center of control for their "one world government" plan (i.e., Antichrist's ten horned, ten crowned, seven headed beast kingdom).

Oh, I completely agree that any temple built now, and any sacrifice offered now is complete blasphemy against God and against Christ's sacrifice. But as I said, I can see with my own eyes, as well as knowing scripture, what God has planned, and am watching the beginning of such plans. Of course, we know that with God time does not quite work the same way, so this plan may not play out in our lifetime as many seem to expect it to.

I do have to disagree, however, with the notion that Israel is a U.N and 'globalist' pet project. Initially the U.N. may have supported the formation of the nation in the wake of WW2, but ever since they have been staunchly against Israel, and it is easy to see. Israel cannot blow her nose with out the U.N calling some meeting to discuss sanctions and resolutions against her, blatantly ignoring atrocities and human violations that are being perpetrated in countries bordering Israel or in other parts of the planet. Niki Haley is doing quite a good job of calling the U.N out on their double standards here. And as far as the globalist...most of the hate Israel and get behind the boycott Israel movement. Obama was a good example, but you could pluck any of them out and find similar sentiments in their pockets. It is, I think, as it ever was...for some reason...probably spiritual in nature....people just hate the Jews. Christian nations, and Christians...those who follow God, do not. We recognize that they are not saved if they do not see Jesus as their Messiah, but we know that they are "beloved for the sake of their forefathers", and so we treat them as God would have us. It seems the rest of the world follows Satan's feelings about the Jews.....

Not the rural areas of America. It's the big cities mostly that have gone the way of Cain and Sodom and Gomorrah. There are still millions of faithful Christians in the U.S. which will never fall away, no matter how much the "synagogue of Satan" tries to destroy it. What is happening in the Christian nations today was prophesied. God is allowing us to be weakened because of the coming one-world system that must happen per His Word. Trump's presidential victory against Leftist Liberalism is a sign of most of America's stance.

In Georgetown history professor Carrol Quigley's 1960's book, Tragedy and Hope, he said that the globalist insiders figured if they could get control of 25 of the most influential newspapers in the U.S., then all the rest of the nation's newspapers would follow suit. (Quigley himself was an Insider, and Bill Clinton endorsed Quigley in his inaugural speech.) So like Trump says, 'fake news' is mostly what today's U.S. news sources are about. The globalists have control of U.S. media, education, finance, and have been working hard on controlling Christian Churches. It's getting more like communist controls each day (Communist Russia and China allows the Christian Church, but it's got to be their... version of Christianity).

Of course I'm not saying that the whole of America or Australia have abandoned God and are now swimming in the cesspit of sin. There remains faithful pockets here as well, and we both weep for what we see happening in our Country and try to stand against it as best we can. But we cannot deny that as a general rule, those leading our Countries...those making the laws, are embracing liberalism and expelling the Christian tenants that once guided and founded the nations. God is not welcome in schools and Courts and he's barely allowed in marriages, sex and parenting. Those things cover all the essential parts of daily life and how a person grows and learns and is governed. I think we are in big trouble, and we know, from examples in the bible, that it doesn't really matter if a few faithful remain, God will still judge nations if he feels they need it. Sometimes I look at the number of babies that have been killed in the womb and think that we deserve it. How can we not? It's a heartbreaking tragedy.

 

[Davy]

Oh, I completely agree that any temple built now, and any sacrifice offered now is complete blasphemy against God and against Christ's sacrifice. But as I said, I can see with my own eyes, as well as knowing scripture, what God has planned, and am watching the beginning of such plans. Of course, we know that with God time does not quite work the same way, so this plan may not play out in our lifetime as many seem to expect it to.
....

Everything is going according to Holye (old saying), meaning, all is going to boil down to God's plan for the end of this world as written in His Word. God is still The Author of the Christian nations, even though the liberals and communists are gaining control. On the final day of this world, God is going to show them Who The GOD really is, and it will be by His hand, not ours. We must be weakened so His enemies on that day understand that their defeat will have been by His Hand, and not ours. Otherwise our enemies could just think that we won another one over them by our own hand. This is one of God's Messages in Ezekiel 39 regarding the final battle of this world.

 

[n2thelight]

Everybody talks about that nation state Israel as God's chosen,which by the way ain't true.

Question is,where is Judah?