22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Truth7t7

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the Apostle John originated the doctrine of Millennialism. And belief in the restoration of Israel existed in the Jewish Prophets.
John did no such thing as you falsely claim, Randy's dreams and fantasy creates a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, found no place in scripture

Dorothy had the Kingdom of Oz, Randy has a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, both are fictional fairy tales
 
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Truth7t7

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The promise of Israel's restoration in the Olivet Discourse, Acts 1 and the book of Revelation is, in fact, the promise of restoration to the *land!*
Randy's dreams and fairy tales found no place in scripture

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

The only place a future Millennial Kingdom exist is in the minds and imagination of the deceived, a Kingdom found no place in scripture
 

WPM

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Will you quit saying I "know" things that aren't true. You're a very bad mind-reader! I didn't quote the text to save time because I've quoted these texts enough times already. You know them (I believe), and I know them. And I wouldn't reference them if I didn't believe they were perfectly valid.

I know that very, very well, and you should too. The Olivet Discourse speaks of the gathering of Israel at the return of the Son of Man. Acts 1 speaks specifically to the restoration of national Israel, indicating it will happen in God's time. And Rom 9-11 is all about the fact God has not forgotten His promises to Israel even though they are presently under punishment.

I have repeatedly shown you: the context of "restoration" in both passages is spiritual and involves the power of the Holy Spirit bringing an elect people within Israel to faith in Christ. This results in them being united to fellow-believers (Jews and Gentiles) throughout the world. There is nothing about physical land, or land-boundaries, in any of these texts. You are forcing that into the inspired pages. Whatever that restoration looks like it relates exclusively to the redeemed of God and spiritual "restoration."
 
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WPM

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As long as I've heard WPM rail against Premil he's made this insane claim that there is nothing outside of Rev 20 that supports Premil. The entire sense in the OT of the final restoration of Israel confirms that a Messianic Age is coming. It matters not if the time frame of a thousand years is given. It is, in fact, confirmed by many references in the Prophets to the coming of the Messianic Kingdom.

As we analyze the ancient Hebrew text, we see a notable and central theme mounting: that of the arrival of a Redeemer Messiah to rescue man from his sinful condition. This came in the form of direct prophecies, old covenant offices, ceremonial typology and a tapestry of unfolding preparation. In fact, Jesus Christ is the key to understanding the biblical covenants. Even though they did not have a full epiphany of Him, the old covenant prophets were preoccupied with the Messiah’s person, His appearance and His ministry. The Old Testament text gradually and assuredly steered history ahead to the fulfillment of every ancient promise. The momentum grows the closer we get to His first advent. There is a steady unfolding continuity of plan and purpose from the Old to the New Testament, concentrated on the promised Messiah. Christ is indeed God’s final, fullest and ultimate revelation of perfection and truth.

The prophets predicted that Israel's Messiah / king would come to set up His righteous kingdom. Those who had eyes recognized the King and entered His kingdom by faith. He came as promised, right on time.

The kingdom of God has already been inaugurated but has not yet been fully established in all its eternal glory. So, the kingdom has come and is coming. Basically, the kingdom is here "already, but, not yet" in its final fulness and majestic glory. That happens at the end when He comes to judge the living and the dead.

Christ reigns in majesty and glory at the right hand of majesty today over His enemies. He has already defeated all His enemies. He is king over the kings and kingdoms of the earth. He is Lord and reigns over all principalities and powers, rulers of darkness, and spiritual wickedness in high places. He exercises sovereign kingly power over all His enemies until He makes them His footstool. There is nothing that is not under his feet. Jesus Christ is indeed Lord!

The king has already introduced His kingdom to planet earth. Wherever you find the king, you find the kingdom. Christ ushered in the kingdom of God when He came. Jesus said in Matthew 11:12,from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth (biazo) violence, and the (biastes) violent take it by force.”

Jesus said, in Luke 16:16, “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man (biazo) presseth into it.”

We should immediately note: for men to be able to press into the kingdom and for it to suffer violence it must already exist. The Greek word biazo here means to force, to crowd oneself into, or to seize. The kingdom of God is shown here to be a present reality that the righteous enter upon salvation. This has been the case since John the Baptist. The spiritual kingdom Christ brought was very-much alive and active from the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.

Sadly, the overwhelming majority of Jews missed their promised Messiah when He came. He just didn’t fit their expectation of who and what the Messiah was to be. Also, they had an erroneous political racial perception of what the kingdom was. They had a carnal earthly view of Messiah and His kingdom. They believed that the first thing He would do was subjugate all national Israel’s enemies, starting with the Romans. When Christ appeared at His first advent, the Jews imagined He would reinstate the now defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation, restoring their ancient borders. The only problem was: they had a defective hyper-literalist understanding of Old Testament prophesies and a misconception of how the kingdom would look.

Matthew 3:1-2 records, “In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (or eengiken or ‘is made near’ or ‘approaches’).”

Matthew 4:12, 17 records, “when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee…From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (or eengiken).”

Mark 1:14-15 records, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand (or eengiken).”

Jesus told the disciples as the kingdom advances, And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand (or eengiken)(Matthew 10:7).

The kingdom of God exists wherever the king – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His spiritual jurisdiction. His kingdom embodies all those who possess the indwelling Holy Spirit – those who are born-again of the Spirit of God. Christ’s kingdom is therefore found wherever there are citizens of that Kingdom.

In John 3:3 Jesus declared: Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

And in John 3:5 He says, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

When someone gets saved they enter into the kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises spiritual control. This kingship refers to the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness are pre-eminent.

We experience the kingdom of God through supernatural birth from above where we are supernaturally changed from a child of darkness to a child of God. Be assured, we cannot change ourselves. It must be a new birth.

One can only “see” and “enter” the kingdom of God by grace through faith. None of us can earn it. None of us deserve it. Before you pat yourself on the back, remember even faith is a gift from God.
 
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WPM

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You can sometimes tell that someone is off track and not aligned with the word of God. Their rage is evidence of that fact. Their obsessive idolization of their doctrines indicate that somewhere along the way they've gotten off track, gotten lost, and now find themselves groping in the dark filled with anger and accusation.

Such are those who rail against Premillennialists, who simply wish to abide by Jesus' warning not to tamper with the word of the book of Revelation. In ch. 20 we are told there will be a thousand years. If we wish to believe that blatant statement we shouldn't be made to be scoundrels and heretics for believing it!

You need to calm down. You are obviously extremely frustrated that you have no rebuttals to the Amil posts and are now resorting to more vicious and extreme ad hominem. If you think that this advances your cause in any way, it doesn't. It rather exposes the desperation of your position.
 
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WPM

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No, you're the one comparing applies to giraffes! It matters not if Cerinthus and Marcion held to Millennialist beliefs.

Cerinthus was a legalist, separating those under the Law from the evils of the material world. Marcion separated the God of NT Grace from the God of the Law. In both cases, a separation is being made away from the substance of Christ, denying that God had come in the flesh.

These heretics were Gnostics, who elevated a kind of Gnostic spirituality over true Christian spirituality. To compare Premillennialists with these heretics simply because they advocated for a form of Premillennialism is absurd since the heretics did not adhere to the orthodoxy of Premillennialism. It's like saying you're a Mormon because you have in common with Mormons the acceptance of the Christian Bible.

If anything, these early Christian heretics confirmed the authenticity of the early embrace of the Jewish Hope. They were just affirming, though in a heretical way, the fact that the Jewish restoration would one day take place, good or bad.

Not so! Dionysius describes the millennium Cerinthus anticipated in the future. It is a classic but crude summation of many of the core tenets of modern-day Premillenialism.

Cerinthus, who founded the sect which was called, after him, the Cerinthian, desiring reputable authority for his fiction, prefixed the name. For the doctrine which he taught was this: that the kingdom of Christ will be an earthly one. And as he was himself devoted to the pleasures of the body and altogether sensual in his nature, he dreamed that that kingdom would consist in those things which he desired, namely, in the delights of the belly and of sexual passion, that is to say, in eating and drinking and marrying, and in festivals and sacrifices and the slaying of victims, under the guise of which he thought he could indulge his appetites with a better grace (Church History, Book III, Chapter 28).​

This summary covers some of the core tenets of what we know today as Premillennialism. But the key element that is present here, but absent in the Chiliast hope, is where Dionysius describes Cerinthus’ expectation of a return to the Jewish “festivals and sacrifices and the slaying of victims.” Cerinthus saw the reintroduction of the old covenant arrangement. With the return of “festivals and sacrifices,” came (of necessity) the rebuilding of the Jewish temple and the restoration of the old covenant priesthood. This was anathema to orthodox early Christianity. It ran contrary to New Testament teaching and principles.

The early Christians writers of all shades believed that Christ was the last sacrifice for sin. They held that the old covenant was a temporary imperfect unsatisfactory covenant pointing forward to the Lord Jesus Christ and His eternal sacrifice. They taught that the new divine arrangement had superseded the shadow, type and figure.

There is no allowance made by the Patristic writers for a restoration of the Old Testament sacrifice system with its festivals and feast, its meat offerings, sin offerings, trespass offerings, burnt offerings, peace offerings and drink offerings. They made no mention, as today, of “memorial sacrifices.” That is a modern man-made extra-biblical term that is rabbited by the masses in order to justify the unjustifiable.

The old imperfect sacrifices made by the representative priests in the old covenant were superseded at the cross by the one final satisfactory sacrifice by the one true eternal priest – the Lord Jesus Christ. Man has now only one true heavenly high priest and requires none other. The new covenant with a new priesthood had eternally removed the old covenant with the old priesthood.

Eusebius the historian records Caius of Rome, (17 December, AD 283 to 22 April, AD 296), in his criticism of Cerinthus. He does not go into all the detail of Dionysius, but makes general sweeping statements in regard to his Premillennialism:

By means of revelations which he pretends were written by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things which he falsely claims were shown him by angels; and he says that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ will be set up on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem will again be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy of the Scriptures of God, he asserts, with the purpose of deceiving men, that there is to be a period of a thousand years for marriage festivals (Church History, Book III, Chapter 28).​

Cerinthus was a follower and advocate of the Jewish law, something Epiphanius (who was Bishop of Constantia in Cyprus, 310-403AD) alludes to in his writings:

Cerinthus … adhered in part to Judaism. He, however, claims that the Law and prophets have been given by the angels, and the law-giver is one of the angels who have made the world (The Panarion, Against Cerinthians or Merinthians, 1:3).

He goes on to allege:

Cerinthus stirred the circumcised multitudes up over Peter on his return to Jerusalem by saying, “He went in to men uncircumcised.” Cerinthus did this before preaching his doctrine in Asia and falling into the deeper pit of his destruction. For, because he was circumcised himself he sought an excuse, through circumcision if you please, for his opposition to the uncircumcised believers (The Panarion, Against Cerinthians or Merinthians, 2:5-6).​

Theodoret (Antioch Syria, died October 22, 362) also strongly repudiates Cerinthus and his false teaching, saying:

For, unlike that of Cerinthus and of those whose views are similar to his, the kingdom of our God and Saviour is not to be of this earth, nor circumscribed by a specific time. Those men create for themselves in imagination a period of a thousand years, and luxury that will pass, and other pleasures, and along with them, sacrifices and Jewish solemnities. As for ourselves, we await the life that knows no growing old (Compendium of Heretics’ Fables, 5.21).​

This is the simplistic early overview of modern day Premilennialism. It is what they teach and preach. Little do many know, but, the ancient source of their teaching is the ancient Judaizing heretics. The cross does not seem satisfactory, efficacious and final enough for this founder of early Premillennialist. He wrongly and strongly promoted the full reinstitution of the redundant old covenant arrangement with its multiple additional sin offerings to atone for the sins of man in the future. The “sacrifices and Jewish solemnities” endorsed to arise in a future millennium refers to the full gamut of the Old Testament Mosaic sacrifice system. Cerinthus is the first promoter of a thousand years of blood-letting surrounding the abolished old covenant feasts and festivals.
 

Randy Kluth

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I have repeatedly shown you: the context of "restoration" in both passages is spiritual and involves the power of the Holy Spirit bringing an elect people within Israel to faith in Christ. This results in them being united to fellow-believers (Jews and Gentiles) throughout the world. There is nothing about physical land, or land-boundaries, in any of these texts. You are forcing that into the inspired pages. Whatever that restoration looks like it relates exclusively to the redeemed of God and spiritual "restoration."

You constantly require biblical evidence of my beliefs, and when I present them you discount them or delegitimize them. If you don't want my biblical evidence, don't ask for it!

This is true of about every discussion among Christians. Each party has his own set of Scriptural evidences. Each side presents that biblical evidence. This is mine, whether you agree with it or not. It is in fact *evidence,* whether you agree with it or not.

In a court a party provides *evidence.* The judge and jury may find that evidence compelling or not. But it is evidence. They don't say, "you have nothing," as you do. They don't disqualify the evidence just because it seems weak. It is real *evidence.*

The Olivet Discourse is evidence that Jesus referred to the restoration of Israel. He speaks of a great gathering of what can only be viewed as Israel at that time, since he was still speaking under the Old Covenant.

Acts 1.6-7 is evidence that Jesus affirmed the promise of Israel's national restoration, and not just a partial national restoration. He did so by indicating not that it wouldn't happen, but rather, by indicating it would happen in the Father's good time.

And Rom 9-11 is a constant reaffirmation that not only has Israel not been forgotten, but that its entire national hope would still be fulfilled. He denounced Christians as arrogant who felt that they had replaced Israel's hope as Gentiles.

You disagree, and I accept that. But don't say I bring zero evidence. That would be a lie.
 

Randy Kluth

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You need to calm down. You are obviously extremely frustrated that you have no rebuttals to the Amil posts and are now resorting to more vicious and extreme ad hominem. If you think that this advances your cause in any way, it doesn't. It rather exposes the desperation of your position.

It is "tough love." :)
 

Randy Kluth

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The prophets predicted that Israel's Messiah / king would come to set up His righteous kingdom. Those who had eyes recognized the King and entered His kingdom by faith. He came as promised, right on time.

Jesus' disciples recognized that Jesus was the Messiah, and ultimately, that he was God's Son. But no, they never saw that he had brought in his Kingdom. They associated his Kingdom with the restoration of Israel. That is a fact.

Jesus came with a gospel that proclaimed that his Kingdom was *near*--not yet *here!* Though the powers of the heavenly Kingdom were with Jesus while he was ministering on earth that heavenly Kingdom had not yet come. The entire book of Revelation was written, predicated on the idea that Christ's Kingdom has not yet come. To say it already arrived in the Church is false, and does not match the biblical record.

The kingdom of God has already been inaugurated but has not yet been fully established in all its eternal glory.

This is a blatant contradiction. The Kingdom has either been inaugurated, or it has not. And it has not, as even you admit! There is no such thing as a "partial inauguration" or a "partial establishment." That is pure fiction.

But there has always been the ability for God to reach down from His heavenly Kingdom to impact the earth. He does that every time He saves people and every times He judges people. God acts within the earthly domain *without inaugurating His Kingdom on earth!*

So, the kingdom has come and is coming. Basically, the kingdom is here "already, but, not yet" in its final fulness and majestic glory.

That is a blatant contradiction. If the Kingdom has already come, then it isn't still "coming!"

Enough already! Nobody is questioning the fact God's heavenly Kingdom exists or that He holds power over the earth. But God has limited His judgment on earth to allow His plan for mankind to unfold without destroying them in their sin. And so, we live in an "Age of Grace."

This means the Kingdom resists coming until men can sign onto the Kingdom of Heaven *before it comes.* The Kingdom in a sense "arrived" in the form of God's Son, but only on a temporary basis. It is the same thing with theocracies. God's Kingdom was here in Israel's Davidic monarchy, but only temporarily.

The Kingdom has not come in the eschatological, final sense until Jesus comes back to render a full verdict against the Antichristian earth. Then the glorified Church will be given to reign, enforcing the rights of Christian theocracies in accord with the heavenly Kingdom. This will be the true inauguration of Christ's heavenly Kingdom upon the earth.
 
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marks

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You constantly require biblical evidence of my beliefs, and when I present them you discount them or delegitimize them. If you don't want my biblical evidence, don't ask for it!

This is true of about every discussion among Christians. Each party has his own set of Scriptural evidences. Each side presents that biblical evidence. This is mine, whether you agree with it or not. It is in fact *evidence,* whether you agree with it or not.

In a court a party provides *evidence.* The judge and jury may find that evidence compelling or not. But it is evidence. They don't say, "you have nothing," as you do. They don't disqualify the evidence just because it seems weak. It is real *evidence.*

The Olivet Discourse is evidence that Jesus referred to the restoration of Israel. He speaks of a great gathering of what can only be viewed as Israel at that time, since he was still speaking under the Old Covenant.

Acts 1.6-7 is evidence that Jesus affirmed the promise of Israel's national restoration, and not just a partial national restoration. He did so by indicating not that it wouldn't happen, but rather, by indicating it would happen in the Father's good time.

And Rom 9-11 is a constant reaffirmation that not only has Israel not been forgotten, but that its entire national hope would still be fulfilled. He denounced Christians as arrogant who felt that they had replaced Israel's hope as Gentiles.

You disagree, and I accept that. But don't say I bring zero evidence. That would be a lie.
The reason I don't engage in many of these debates is that the opposing view seems so often to be based on complex arguments for why we should not believe the plain readings of passages.

I'm not interesting in the mere discounting of truth, "It says That, but it means This", with all this convoluted reasoning, where each have their own version.

When the Bible says that God will bring Jacob's children back to their promised land, I read it, I believe it, and why should it be any different?

The disbelief in God's divine continuance of Isreal as a nation has resulted in so much confusion, in replacement theology and it's spin offs, and in communicating the idea that you can't just accept what you read, Oh No, Israel is Gone, don't you see??? Now Israel is back, but the disbelief remains.

For me, there's not much to say to someone who claims that Scripture means other than what it says. I can show how it should be accepted as written, and if that's received, good. Seldom is it received.

I just can never get over how many times I see a debate end on that point, some particular passage that says a certain thing, and the assertion is, "It really means something else".

Much love!
 

WPM

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The Olivet Discourse is evidence that Jesus referred to the restoration of Israel. He speaks of a great gathering of what can only be viewed as Israel at that time, since he was still speaking under the Old Covenant.

Where? You seem to have a major issue with quoting the scriptural text. Obviously, that is because you know it doesn't support your claims.

Acts 1.6-7 is evidence that Jesus affirmed the promise of Israel's national restoration, and not just a partial national restoration. He did so by indicating not that it wouldn't happen, but rather, by indicating it would happen in the Father's good time.

No. Jesus did not in any way affirm "the promise of Israel's national restoration." Quite the opposite. He rebuked it! This was a Pharisaical pipe-dream that was never going to happen.The kingdom of God that Christ introduced was of a spiritual nature. This absolutely confounded the Pharisees and their misguided earthly carnal concept of the Messianic kingdom. Premils are just following in their footsteps, making the same foolish mistake.

The two verses that go before Acts 1:6 (relating to the disciples’ question) support the idea of a spiritual kingdom. The two verses that follow Acts 1:6 (relating to the disciples’ question) show the Lord giving a spiritual response to their question.

Before the question came Christ was exhorting the disciples on the need for patience as they awaited the empowerment of the Holy Ghost to take the Gospel out to “the whosoever.” Everything about the context is spiritual. The Lord was stating “that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence (Acts 1:4-5).

Surely an unbiased look at these introductory comments would give us insight into what the Lord was teaching and what actually provoked the question that followed it. Undoubtedly the Lord was giving spiritual instruction about a spiritual kingdom that would shortly come with great power and fire? This is not territorial language.

Christ was speaking of Pentecost. He said the disciples would not die until they had “seen the kingdom come with power” – referring here the Church’s baptism of fire to win a lost world. It didn’t mean they would die when that happened.

The disciples then interjected with a question: Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6).

Premillennialists attribute much extravagant, extensive and grandiose detail to this simple question. They build a whole school of thought pertaining to a supposed period after the second coming out of this basic inquiry. They call it a millennial age and make it a Jewish-orientated kingdom. Nevertheless, and significantly, New Testament Scripture knows nothing of such an old-covenant-type Jewish age. That has been reduced to the history books.

Jesus reply to the disciples is telling. He responded: “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power (or dunamis), after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth (Acts 1:7-8)

If the disciples did have some glorious future natural earthly hope of a Jewish kingdom containing all the old covenant structures, rights and customs then Jesus wasn’t buying into it. In fact, He totally rebuked such a concept by His spiritual response. If their hope was spiritual then He ably explained the development of that spiritual kingdom – from the small nation of Israel to the Gentile nations. He was outlining the great commission and showing them their evangelistic mission field.

What Premillennialists fail to see is: there is no mention of a future period after the second coming in the question, neither is there any intimation of that. There is not even any mention of the second coming, never mind a belief in a thousand-year reign of Christ on a still corrupt earth! No one could derive such a doctrine from this straightforward question. It would have to be taught elsewhere for it to enjoy veracity.

The Jewish expectation was a literal visible territorial kingdom of which the Messiah – the King – would rule over. They believed He would immediately destroy every enemy that withstood the house of Israel. Their mistaken thinking was guided by a hyper-literalist attitude to Old Testament Messianic prophecies. These Christ confronted and exposed in His teaching. This expectation of a literal visible territorial kingdom was wrong, and revealed the ignorance which controlled the Jews at that time. They had a defective perception of the nature of God’s kingdom and the manner in which it would appear.

The Messianic kingdom is here now. Can I remind you that the Messiah came as king with His kingdom a long time ago? Just because you reject that does not in any way negate it. Your theology causes you to dismiss it. Like the Pharisees, you fail to see the eschatological nature of His First Advent and the kingdom of God. That is the very reason why the Pharisees nailed Him to a tree. When Christ appeared at His first advent, the Jews imagined He would reinstate the now defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation, restoring their ancient borders. The Jewish expectation was a literal visible territorial kingdom of which the Messiah the King would rule over. They believed He would immediately destroy every enemy that withstood the house of Israel and usher in a period of physical and spiritual bliss for Israel.

Jesus said in John 18:36, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

Christ couldn’t have made it clearer. This expectation – of a literal visible territorial political kingdom – was wrong. It exposed the ignorance which controlled the Jews. They had a defective perception of the nature of God’s kingdom and the manner in which it would appear.

The kingdom of God that Christ introduced was of a spiritual nature. This absolutely confounded the Pharisees and their misguided earthly carnal concept of the Messianic kingdom.
 
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WPM

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Jesus' disciples recognized that Jesus was the Messiah, and ultimately, that he was God's Son. But no, they never saw that he had brought in his Kingdom. They associated his Kingdom with the restoration of Israel. That is a fact.

Jesus came with a gospel that proclaimed that his Kingdom was *near*--not yet *here!* Though the powers of the heavenly Kingdom were with Jesus while he was ministering on earth that heavenly Kingdom had not yet come. The entire book of Revelation was written, predicated on the idea that Christ's Kingdom has not yet come. To say it already arrived in the Church is false, and does not match the biblical record.



This is a blatant contradiction. The Kingdom has either been inaugurated, or it has not. And it has not, as even you admit! There is no such thing as a "partial inauguration" or a "partial establishment." That is pure fiction.

But there has always been the ability for God to reach down from His heavenly Kingdom to impact the earth. He does that every time He saves people and every times He judges people. God acts within the earthly domain *without inaugurating His Kingdom on earth!*



That is a blatant contradiction. If the Kingdom has already come, then it isn't still "coming!"

Enough already! Nobody is questioning the fact God's heavenly Kingdom exists or that He holds power over the earth. But God has limited His judgment on earth to allow His plan for mankind to unfold without destroying them in their sin. And so, we live in an "Age of Grace."

This means the Kingdom resists coming until men can sign onto the Kingdom of Heaven *before it comes.* The Kingdom in a sense "arrived" in the form of God's Son, but only on a temporary basis. It is the same thing with theocracies. God's Kingdom was here in Israel's Davidic monarchy, but only temporarily.

The Kingdom has not come in the eschatological, final sense until Jesus comes back to render a full verdict against the Antichristian earth. Then the glorified Church will be given to reign, enforcing the rights of Christian theocracies in accord with the heavenly Kingdom. This will be the true inauguration of Christ's heavenly Kingdom upon the earth.

Listen to how God revealed Christ to the wisemen in Matthew 2:1-2: behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.”

Here you have it! The sacred text testifies to the fact that Jesus Christ was “born King of the Jews.”

John 1:47-49: “Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! … Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.”

As the Lord’s ministry came to an end on earth we see Him entering into Jerusalem triumphant on a donkey. He received the adoration of the people.

Listen to what they were shouting on Palm Sunday. The people declared in John 12:12-15: “Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass’s colt.”

Before Jesus death in John 18:36 Jesus told Pilate: “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

In the next verse, Pilate asked Jesus: “Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”

While Jesus did not come and meet the religious Jews faulty expectation of a physical territorial kingdom where the Messiah would reign over physical Israel and subjugate the Gentile nations. He did come as a spiritual king reigning over a spiritual kingdom.

Israel’s king had come, and introduced His heavenly kingdom to this earth.

The Roman soldiers mocked Jesus in Matthew 27:29: when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!”

Their derision was directed toward Christ and the title because that is what belonged to Him, and that is what He claimed.

Above Jesus on the cross Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.” (John 19:19)

By Christ’s own affirmation Pilate inscribed this great title upon the cross.

Kings carry authority. On Christ’s part, all authority. To deny Christ kingship is to deny His authority, because both are inextricably linked.
 

WPM

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The disbelief in God's divine continuance of Isreal as a nation has resulted in so much confusion, in replacement theology and it's spin offs, and in communicating the idea that you can't just accept what you read, Oh No, Israel is Gone, don't you see??? Now Israel is back, but the disbelief remains.

We are the true children of Abraham, not ethnic Israel. We are the children of promise, not ethnic Israel. We are true Israeli citizens, not ethnic Israel. We are the circumcision, not ethnic Israel. We are the spiritual Jews, not ethnic Israel. Those who are part of this symbolic tree enjoy a common spiritual identity that is reflected in a new type of citizenship. It is a spiritual citizenship that is heaven-centered which only believers can enjoy. This symbolic tree represents the Israel of God from throughout the nations – the only Israel God recognizes. No unbeliever is part of it because partaking in its blessing and sustenance comes through the exercise of faith. This joining of Jews and Gentiles together fulfilled many of the promises Abraham received about the nations being blessed in him (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:3-8, 17:15-16, 18:18 and 22:16-18).

Ephesians 2:11-19 declares, Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth [Gr. politeia or citizenship] of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby … Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens [Gr. sumpolites] with the saints, and of the household of God.”

The context of the passage in view is basically comparing the dark hopeless condition the Gentiles found themselves in before the cross to the liberated enlightened position those Gentiles who embraced Christ were after the cross. It is only upon conversion that our sins are washed away and the blood of Jesus becomes effectual. Through Calvary, the believing Gentile has been brought into a new dominion and therefore enjoys a new citizenship, with its consequential new benefits. The believing Gentile has been given favor with God and has now fully entered into:

· Christ
· The citizenship of Israel
· The covenants of promise
· Spiritual hope
· Union with God in this present world

This passage is speaking of five distinct, yet inextricably linked, states of alienation that the Gentile believer once suffered before they received the glorious Gospel of Christ. Paul the Apostle makes it clear that all five have been graciously opened up to the Gentiles since Christ’s first advent. The Gentile believer can now experience God in the same way the Jew could prior to the cross through their surrender to Christ and their trust in “the blood of Christ.” Gentiles Christians under the new covenant now enjoy the same undeserved favor and blessing that Israeli Jewish believers did under the old covenant. We essentially see the incorporation of the once darkened Gentiles into true Israel. They now share with Israel its Messiah, Israeli citizenship, spiritual covenants, promises, hope and God.”

The whole thrust here is showing the supernatural change of status that occurred to the believing Gentiles through trusting in Christ and His shed blood on the cross. These darkened Gentiles went from being “aliens, “strangers” and “foreigners” to being “fellowcitizens” in the Israel of God. They went from being “afar off” to being “nigh.” This is talking about a spiritual transaction that occurred through the cross.

Paul says in Romans 11:17-24: And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them, partakest of the root and fatness [or oiliness] of the olive tree. Boast not against the branches [Israel]. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root [Jesus], but the root [Jesus] thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches [Israel] were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?”

No one could surely dispute we are looking at an Israeli tree. Romans 11:24 explains, speaking about natural Israel: “these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” This is an Israeli tree that holds Israeli citizens. But it was not merely a natural Israeli tree but a spiritual Israeli tree. After all, if it were simply natural there would be absolutely no reason to cut out natural Israelites simply on the grounds of their race. We are clearly looking at a spiritual tree that accommodates both the believing Jew and the believing Gentile from both Old and New Testament. It embodies all those who belong to the “household of faith” throughout time.

Those who are part of this symbolic tree enjoy a common spiritual identity that is reflected in a new type of citizenship. It is a spiritual citizenship that is heaven-centered which only believers can enjoy. This symbolic tree represents the Israel of God from throughout the nations – the only Israel God recognizes. No unbeliever is part of it because partaking in its blessing and sustenance comes through the exercise of faith. This joining of Jews and Gentiles together fulfilled many of the promises Abraham received about the nations being blessed in him (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:3-8, 17:15-16, 18:18 and 22:16-18).

A renunciation of racial superiority was pressed hard by that Hebrew of the Hebrews Paul the Apostle throughout the New Testament in clear, unambiguous and unwavering terms. It left no room for uncertainty. Galatians 6:15-16 emphasizes:
“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Scripture couldn’t be clearer! Race means nothing today. Salvation renders racial distinctions unimportant and irrelevant. Jewishness is nothing, neither is Gentilenesss. The race barriers have been demolished under the new covenant. Those that would argue that a man’s natural race carries any worth or virtue before God when it comes to salvation or that it in any way adds anything to a man’s spiritual status are severely censured by passages like these.

N. T. Wright asserts: “Paul makes it abundantly clear that there is no covenant membership, and consequently no salvation, for those who simply rest on their ancestral privilege” (The Climax of the Covenant: Christ and the Law in Pauline Theology).

Galatians 3:28 says,
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

There is no allowance for ethnic difference within the body of Christ. There are no subgroups, cultures, color’s or creeds, just one harmonious redeemed company that has been unified through the person and work of Christ our Savior. Those that have the Spirit of Christ in both the Old and the New Testament are the true seed of Abraham – that father of the faith.
 
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marks

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not ethnic Israel.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Did the sun rise today? If you answer "yes", I think there is more you need to incorporate into your understanding.

Much love!
 

marks

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Ephesians 2:11-19 declares, Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth [Gr. politeia or citizenship] of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby … Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens [Gr. sumpolites] with the saints, and of the household of God.”

Just so you know, formats don't really add to the force of an argument to me, they only make it hard on my eyes.

I've studied these passages a lot, you can just say what you have to say. Let's try to simplify, OK?

Much love!
 

marks

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N. T. Wright asserts: “Paul makes it abundantly clear that there is no covenant membership, and consequently no salvation, for those who simply rest on their ancestral privilege” (The Climax of the Covenant: Christ and the Law in Pauline Theology).

Jesus made that very clear.

God can raise children to Abraham from rocks.

Isaiah 59:19-21 KJV
19) So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

"in Jacob". Descendants of Jacob. This bolded part, what does it mean?

Much love!
 

WPM

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Just so you know, formats don't really add to the force of an argument to me, they only make it hard on my eyes.

I've studied these passages a lot, you can just say what you have to say. Let's try to simplify, OK?

Much love!

Typically Premil response - no response. How can you? They demolish your doctrine.
 

marks

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Typically Premil response - no response. How can you? They demolish your doctrine.
How so? This post had nothing to do with the discussion, only the formatting.

:confused:

Did you notice any other posts I wrote on the topic?

Did you want to make a comment on those?

Or just the . . . typical . . . ad hominem arguments? Do you want to discuss the Bible? Or just be rude to me?

Much love!
 
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