22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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WPM

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No, everything Jesus did on the cross was in preparation for Israel's ultimate restoration, giving hope to sinners throughout the world.



No, Jesus wasn't speaking in parables. The restoration of national Israel had real meaning to the Jews, and Jesus did not correct them for having a wrong definition for who "Israel" is!



This is a diversion to another controversial passage. This indicates you cannot justify your misinterpretation of who "national Israel" is in Acts 1.6-7.

Of course I believe Jesus spoke the truth when he said some of his disciples would see the arrival of the Kingdom's power. But this could refer to a temporal form of the Kingdom in the Church, when Pentecost came. Or it could mean something else.

Obviously, I do agree with you that God's heavenly Kingdom can take a form on the earth presently, though I limit it to a temporary form. The eschatological Kingdom will not arrive until the 2nd Coming.



That is absurd. That is what the Jews believed was their final "Hope" at the time of Jesus' ministry. And Jesus never rebuked them for believing that. In fact he said that at his Coming...

Matt 24.30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

Israel had already gone through a number of reiterations of this idea in their history, so that there is no question about what it means. It means that Israel will be restored, just as it was promised under the Law.

Deut 30.4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.



That is not "hyper-literalist!" That is what the Bible says! Jesus was *not* a Gnostic, creating a dual world with the Jews and the material world on one side, and a spiritual Kingdom and the international Church on the other side!



Now I'm a "Pharisee?" And you think you take the high road and play the martyr as if you alone are the victim of insults?

The ironic thing is: in keeping with the early Amillennialists, many of the early Chiliasts emphasized the New Testament heavenly spiritual hope rather than an earthly carnal one, as most contemporary Premillennialists promote. They spiritualized the fulfillment of Israel's hope, relating it to the Church, the Promised Land being Christ, and, in doing so, they expose the faulty Premil literalist obsession.

Chiliast Methodius (Bishop of Olympus, Asia Minor) denounces the materialistic approach of the apostate Jews (which sadly many Premillennialists advocate today):

[T]he Jews, fluttering about the bare letter of Scripture, like drones about the leaves of herbs, but not about flowers and fruits as the bee, fully believe that these words and ordinances were spoken concerning such a tabernacle as they erect; as if God delighted in those trivial adornments which they, preparing, fabricate from trees, not perceiving the wealth of good things to come; whereas these things, being like air and phantom shadows, foretell the resurrection and the putting up of our tabernacle that had fallen upon the earth, which at length, in the seventh thousand of years, resuming again immortal, we shall celebrate the great feast of true tabernacles in the new and indissoluble creation, the fruits of the earth having been gathered in, and men no longer begetting and begotten, but God resting from the works of creation (Banquet of the Ten Virgins, Discourse 9:1).​

Methodius concludes, showing the feast of tabernacles to be a type of an incorruptible future millennial age:

Wherefore let it shame the Jews that they do not perceive the deep things of the Scriptures, thinking that nothing else than outward things are contained in the law and the prophets; for they, intent upon things earthly, have in greater esteem the riches of the world than the wealth which is of the soul (Banquet of the Ten Virgins, Discourse 9:1).​

Justin describes the spiritual nature of the kingdom that is approaching as spiritual and heavenly:

[W]hen you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid (The First Apology of Justin, Chapter XI (11) —What Kingdom Christians Look For).​

Justin did not look for a carnal temporary human kingdom on this earth when Christ comes, but a heavenly one. His words seem to dismiss the whole modern-day Premillennialist expectation of a restoration of old covenant practices with natural Israel being elevated above all others nation for a thousand years. He negates the idea of mortals saturating the new earth. Justin strongly responds: For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ.”
 

WPM

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No, everything Jesus did on the cross was in preparation for Israel's ultimate restoration, giving hope to sinners throughout the world.



No, Jesus wasn't speaking in parables. The restoration of national Israel had real meaning to the Jews, and Jesus did not correct them for having a wrong definition for who "Israel" is!



This is a diversion to another controversial passage. This indicates you cannot justify your misinterpretation of who "national Israel" is in Acts 1.6-7.

Of course I believe Jesus spoke the truth when he said some of his disciples would see the arrival of the Kingdom's power. But this could refer to a temporal form of the Kingdom in the Church, when Pentecost came. Or it could mean something else.

Obviously, I do agree with you that God's heavenly Kingdom can take a form on the earth presently, though I limit it to a temporary form. The eschatological Kingdom will not arrive until the 2nd Coming.

Tertullian wrote in Against Marcion Book III (Chapter 24):

As for the restoration of Judæa, however, which even the Jews themselves, induced by the names of places and countries, hope for just as it is described, it would be tedious to state at length how the figurative interpretation is spiritually applicable to Christ and His church, and to the character and fruits thereof … At present, too, it would be superfluous for this reason, that our inquiry relates to what is promised in heaven, not on earth. But we do confess our inquiry relates to what is promised in heaven, not on earth. But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, 'let down from heaven,' which the apostle also calls 'our mother from above;' and, while declaring that our citizenship, is in heaven, he predicates of it that it is really a city in heaven … We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection, and refreshing them with the abundance of all really spiritual blessings, as a recompense for those which in the world we have either despised or lost; since it is both just and God-worthy that His servants should have their joy in the place where they have also suffered affliction for His name’s sake.​

Tertullian (160 – 220 AD) said in Against Marcion, Book IV, Chapter 38:

You see how pertinent it was to the case in point. Because the question concerned the next world, and He was going to declare that no one marries there, He opens the way by laying down the principles that here, where there is death, there is also marriage. But they whom God shall account worthy of the possession of that world and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; forasmuch as they cannot die any more, since they become equal to the angels, being made the children of God and of the resurrection.

Tertullian wrote in On the Resurrection of the Flesh (Chapter 26):

In Isaiah, “‘Ye shall eat the good of the land’, the expression means the blessings which await the flesh when in the kingdom of God it shall be renewed, and made like the angels, and waiting to obtain the things ‘which neither eye hath seen, nor ear heard, and which have not entered into the heart of man’ … You will reckon, (I suppose) onions and truffles among earth's bounties, since the Lord declares that ‘man shall not live on bread alone!’ In this way the Jews lose heavenly blessings, by confining their hopes to earthly ones, being ignorant of the promise of heavenly bread, and of the oil of God’s unction, and the wine of the Spirit, and of that water of life which has its vigour from the vine of Christ. On exactly the same principle, they consider the special soil of Judæa to be that very holy land, which ought rather to be interpreted of the Lord’s flesh, which, in all those who put on Christ, is thenceforward the holy land; holy indeed by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, truly flowing with milk and honey by the sweetness of His assurance, truly Judæan by reason of the friendship of God.

Even Barnabas (who Premils wrongly claim was Premil) teaches The Epistle of Barnabas (Chapter 6):

[T]he prophet proclaimed, “Enter ye into the land flowing with milk and honey, and have dominion over it.” … We, then, are they whom He has led into the good land. What, then, mean milk and honey? This, that as the infant is kept alive first by honey, and then by milk, so also we, being quickened and kept alive by the faith of the promise and by the word, shall live ruling over the earth.

Barnabas spiritualises the Old Testament land promises in a manner that would cause modern premillennialists to go cross-eyed. This is a classic Amillennial approach to the fulfilment of Old Testament prophesies in a New Testament context. He also applies the promises made to natural Israel in the Old Testament to the New Testament church today.

J. Lebreton aptly remarks, “not indeed to the deep thought of the Church, but, at least, to the danger which Judaism constituted for it, and the Church’s reaction to the danger.”

Barnabas continues in Chapter XVI:

Let us inquire, then, if there still is a temple of God. There is—where He himself declared He would make and finish it. For it is written, “And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple of God shall be built in glory in the name of the Lord.” I find, therefore, that a temple does exist. Learn, then, how it shall be built in the name of the Lord. Before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak, as being indeed like a temple made with hands. For it was full of idolatry, and was a habitation of demons, through our doing such things as were opposed to [the will of] God. But it shall be built, observe ye, in the name of the Lord, in order that the temple of the Lord may be built in glory. How? Learn [as follows]. Having received the forgiveness of sins, and placed our trust in the name of the Lord, we have become new creatures, formed again from the beginning. Wherefore in our habitation God truly dwells in us. How? His word of faith; His calling of promise; the wisdom of the statutes; the commands of the doctrine; He himself prophesying in us; He himself dwelling in us … This is the spiritual temple built for the Lord.

This means that at an extremely early date, even perhaps overlapping with the writings of the Apostle John, there are those in the church who have replaced Israel entirely with the Church in terms of future blessings. As Diprose notes, ―Barnabas shows little respect for Old Testament institutions. For example, in chapter XVI, 7 a temple made with hands is likened to a habitation of demons, full of idolatry. The writing as a whole, manifests the latent presupposition that the Church, the true heir of the promises, occupies the place that Israel had always been unworthy of occupying. Obviously, to these kinds of Christians there can be no chiliastic hopes involving a restored national Israel, temple, and Jerusalem.

Tertullian further states:

His Holy Spirit, who builds the church, which is indeed the temple, and household and city of God (Against Marcion Book III, Chapter 23).​

He adds:

For he had seen Christ the Lord, the temple of God, and also the gate by whom heaven is entered (Against Marcion Book III, Chapter 25).​

Lactantius also presents a spiritual expectation:

The world has been created for this purpose, that we may be born; we are born for this end, that we may acknowledge the Maker of the world and of ourselves — God; we acknowledge Him for this end, that we may worship Him; we worship Him for this end, that we may receive immortality as the reward of our labours, since the worship of God consists of the greatest labours; for this end we are rewarded with immortality, that being made like to the angels, we may serve the Supreme Father and Lord for ever, and may be to all eternity a kingdom to God. This is the sum of all things, this the secret of God, this the mystery of the world, from which they are estranged, who, following present gratification, have devoted themselves to the pursuit of earthly and frail goods, and by means of deadly enjoyments have sunk as it were in mire and mud their souls, which were born for heavenly pursuits (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter 6).​
 

WPM

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And about the "one hour", any comments? Seriously. You brought this up, I responded, are you now just going to breeze past it?

Premils make it up as they go.

Or are we just going to be back to pejorative nonsense?

I've been studying this for years, and I only say that to say, I'm not just making this all up on the spot. Why do you say such things?

This is not coming across as a serious discussion.

Much love!

I'm just highlighting the duplicity of the Premillennial interpretation. There is no consistency with it. It is all over the place. You are selective when you want to spiritualize something. The fact is, Revelation 20 is oozing in symbolism. For you to insist on a literal wooden thousand years makes no sense. After all, there is no previous teaching on this anywhere else in the sacred pages.
 

covenantee

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Matt 24.30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

Israel had already gone through a number of reiterations of this idea in their history, so that there is no question about what it means. It means that Israel will be restored, just as it was promised under the Law.

It has nothing to do with Israel.

Under the New Covenant, the "elect" refers exclusively to the Church.

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
 
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Naomi25

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Tertullian wrote in Against Marcion Book III (Chapter 24):

As for the restoration of Judæa, however, which even the Jews themselves, induced by the names of places and countries, hope for just as it is described, it would be tedious to state at length how the figurative interpretation is spiritually applicable to Christ and His church, and to the character and fruits thereof … At present, too, it would be superfluous for this reason, that our inquiry relates to what is promised in heaven, not on earth. But we do confess our inquiry relates to what is promised in heaven, not on earth. But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, 'let down from heaven,' which the apostle also calls 'our mother from above;' and, while declaring that our citizenship, is in heaven, he predicates of it that it is really a city in heaven … We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection, and refreshing them with the abundance of all really spiritual blessings, as a recompense for those which in the world we have either despised or lost; since it is both just and God-worthy that His servants should have their joy in the place where they have also suffered affliction for His name’s sake.​

Tertullian (160 – 220 AD) said in Against Marcion, Book IV, Chapter 38:

You see how pertinent it was to the case in point. Because the question concerned the next world, and He was going to declare that no one marries there, He opens the way by laying down the principles that here, where there is death, there is also marriage. But they whom God shall account worthy of the possession of that world and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; forasmuch as they cannot die any more, since they become equal to the angels, being made the children of God and of the resurrection.

Tertullian wrote in On the Resurrection of the Flesh (Chapter 26):

In Isaiah, “‘Ye shall eat the good of the land’, the expression means the blessings which await the flesh when in the kingdom of God it shall be renewed, and made like the angels, and waiting to obtain the things ‘which neither eye hath seen, nor ear heard, and which have not entered into the heart of man’ … You will reckon, (I suppose) onions and truffles among earth's bounties, since the Lord declares that ‘man shall not live on bread alone!’ In this way the Jews lose heavenly blessings, by confining their hopes to earthly ones, being ignorant of the promise of heavenly bread, and of the oil of God’s unction, and the wine of the Spirit, and of that water of life which has its vigour from the vine of Christ. On exactly the same principle, they consider the special soil of Judæa to be that very holy land, which ought rather to be interpreted of the Lord’s flesh, which, in all those who put on Christ, is thenceforward the holy land; holy indeed by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, truly flowing with milk and honey by the sweetness of His assurance, truly Judæan by reason of the friendship of God.

Even Barnabas (who Premils wrongly claim was Premil) teaches The Epistle of Barnabas (Chapter 6):

[T]he prophet proclaimed, “Enter ye into the land flowing with milk and honey, and have dominion over it.” … We, then, are they whom He has led into the good land. What, then, mean milk and honey? This, that as the infant is kept alive first by honey, and then by milk, so also we, being quickened and kept alive by the faith of the promise and by the word, shall live ruling over the earth.

Barnabas spiritualises the Old Testament land promises in a manner that would cause modern premillennialists to go cross-eyed. This is a classic Amillennial approach to the fulfilment of Old Testament prophesies in a New Testament context. He also applies the promises made to natural Israel in the Old Testament to the New Testament church today.

J. Lebreton aptly remarks, “not indeed to the deep thought of the Church, but, at least, to the danger which Judaism constituted for it, and the Church’s reaction to the danger.”

Barnabas continues in Chapter XVI:

Let us inquire, then, if there still is a temple of God. There is—where He himself declared He would make and finish it. For it is written, “And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple of God shall be built in glory in the name of the Lord.” I find, therefore, that a temple does exist. Learn, then, how it shall be built in the name of the Lord. Before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak, as being indeed like a temple made with hands. For it was full of idolatry, and was a habitation of demons, through our doing such things as were opposed to [the will of] God. But it shall be built, observe ye, in the name of the Lord, in order that the temple of the Lord may be built in glory. How? Learn [as follows]. Having received the forgiveness of sins, and placed our trust in the name of the Lord, we have become new creatures, formed again from the beginning. Wherefore in our habitation God truly dwells in us. How? His word of faith; His calling of promise; the wisdom of the statutes; the commands of the doctrine; He himself prophesying in us; He himself dwelling in us … This is the spiritual temple built for the Lord.

This means that at an extremely early date, even perhaps overlapping with the writings of the Apostle John, there are those in the church who have replaced Israel entirely with the Church in terms of future blessings. As Diprose notes, ―Barnabas shows little respect for Old Testament institutions. For example, in chapter XVI, 7 a temple made with hands is likened to a habitation of demons, full of idolatry. The writing as a whole, manifests the latent presupposition that the Church, the true heir of the promises, occupies the place that Israel had always been unworthy of occupying. Obviously, to these kinds of Christians there can be no chiliastic hopes involving a restored national Israel, temple, and Jerusalem.

Tertullian further states:

His Holy Spirit, who builds the church, which is indeed the temple, and household and city of God (Against Marcion Book III, Chapter 23).​

He adds:

For he had seen Christ the Lord, the temple of God, and also the gate by whom heaven is entered (Against Marcion Book III, Chapter 25).​

Lactantius also presents a spiritual expectation:

The world has been created for this purpose, that we may be born; we are born for this end, that we may acknowledge the Maker of the world and of ourselves — God; we acknowledge Him for this end, that we may worship Him; we worship Him for this end, that we may receive immortality as the reward of our labours, since the worship of God consists of the greatest labours; for this end we are rewarded with immortality, that being made like to the angels, we may serve the Supreme Father and Lord for ever, and may be to all eternity a kingdom to God. This is the sum of all things, this the secret of God, this the mystery of the world, from which they are estranged, who, following present gratification, have devoted themselves to the pursuit of earthly and frail goods, and by means of deadly enjoyments have sunk as it were in mire and mud their souls, which were born for heavenly pursuits (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter 6).​

Sorry to jump in here out of nowhere...and I confess I haven't read the entire thread. However...I must admit to being slightly amused when debates arise over the soundness of a doctrine, especially grounding them within the work of the early church fathers. Surely they wrote many things that were of worth, and it is true that their proximity to the cross would have awarded them a perspective others did not have. However...it seems somewhat obvious that even then...(it is even confronted within the pages of scripture!) that aberrant doctrines...heresies, if you will, were rampant.
So...it seems evident to me, what we have here, is a thread reaching over 160 pages long, showcasing the fact that no matter the time in history, man will read into...or out of...scripture, whatever he chooses. Be it for his own purposes, or simply because we each see things so very differently. Who knows.
All this to say...I think it can certainly be interesting to see what the church fathers said on certain issues, but true debate on a doctrine, and how one determines its legitimacy, needs to rest solely upon the word of God.
And, while I cannot agree with the OP and call Premillennialists outright heretics...I don't see it in scripture.
 

covenantee

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Yes, God brings the Jewish People, which anybody can identify ethnically, ie by their attention to Jewish tradition, Jewish society, etc. We know they are a backslidden people, continuing in Rabbinic Judaism. And as I said, there is no specific "Jewish gene." Jewish genes are spread broadly. So the main criteria is being a part of Jewish society. And that society accepts as "Jewish" those who are born of a Jewish mother, or those who convert to Judaism.

I do not see a single one of those appearing in NT Scripture as a criterion that God uses to identify Jews that He will gather.

You mention "Jewish tradition", about which Christ said in admonishing the Pharisees:

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition...

What supporting NT Scriptures can you cite?

Still awaiting an answer.
 

Randy Kluth

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Still awaiting an answer.

You may be waiting a very long time because I don't think you're serious. Virtually the entire Bible identifies who Israel is and who the Jewish People are. And you're still waiting for a biblical answer as to who they are? ;)

God promised a race and a nation to Abraham through his son Isaac, and through Jacob, and through the 12 sons of Jacob. So there is a genetic inheritance, beginning with Abraham. But they formed into a nation when coming out of Egypt and entering into the land God promised to give to his descendants. And when they came out of Egypt they were given the Law to bind them together into a nation and a people, which ultimately became known as the Jewish People.

They should've accepted their Messiah Jesus when he came, but most did not. As they had done in the past they fell into backsliding and apostasy, and rejected the right path. But they maintained their identity in exile through adherence to the Law given initially to bind them. Though the Law is no longer in force, it is the cultural glue that keeps them together and identifies them as such.

Is this biblical? I think so. You probably do not. God certainly doesn't sanction Rabbinic Judaism or keeping the Mosaic Law. But He does identify them as Jews when in this backslidden state.

Acts 2.22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."

Acts 21.20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

Rom 3.2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
 
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WPM

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Sorry to jump in here out of nowhere...and I confess I haven't read the entire thread. However...I must admit to being slightly amused when debates arise over the soundness of a doctrine, especially grounding them within the work of the early church fathers. Surely they wrote many things that were of worth, and it is true that their proximity to the cross would have awarded them a perspective others did not have. However...it seems somewhat obvious that even then...(it is even confronted within the pages of scripture!) that aberrant doctrines...heresies, if you will, were rampant.
So...it seems evident to me, what we have here, is a thread reaching over 160 pages long, showcasing the fact that no matter the time in history, man will read into...or out of...scripture, whatever he chooses. Be it for his own purposes, or simply because we each see things so very differently. Who knows.
All this to say...I think it can certainly be interesting to see what the church fathers said on certain issues, but true debate on a doctrine, and how one determines its legitimacy, needs to rest solely upon the word of God.
And, while I cannot agree with the OP and call Premillennialists outright heretics...I don't see it in scripture.

You obviously didn't read the Op well enough. I didn't call Premillennialists outright heretics. I do not believe that. I spoke of the roots of Premil.
 

Randy Kluth

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It has nothing to do with Israel.

Under the New Covenant, the "elect" refers exclusively to the Church.

Jesus said this when the Law was still in effect, ie under the Old Covenant. So the "elect" had to refer to believers in Israel.
 

Truth7t7

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Hi Truth7t7
I thought you didnt believe in a thousand years after the second coming. :confused:
So when do you believe the non believers have their resurrection?


And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had refused to worship the beast or his image, and had not accepted his mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead [the non-believers] did not come to life again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) and holy is the person who takes part in the first resurrection; over these the second death [which is eternal separation from God, the lake of fire] has no power or authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and they will reign with Him a thousand years.
Thousand Years Is "Non-Literal" It Explains The Lord's Eternal Spiritual 2 Peter 3:8

I Will Repeat My Belief Again And Again,, If You Desire To Beat The Horse I Will Respond

We Disagree,You Believe "First Resurrection" Is A Spiritual Resurrection At Salvation, I Believe A Future Literal "First Resurrection" At The Second Coming, Clearly Explained, No Need To Beat A Dead Horse

The First Resurrection, On The Last Day Explained?


There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Tertullian wrote in Against Marcion Book III (Chapter 24):

As for the restoration of Judæa, however, which even the Jews themselves, induced by the names of places and countries, hope for just as it is described, it would be tedious to state at length how the figurative interpretation is spiritually applicable to Christ and His church, and to the character and fruits thereof … At present, too, it would be superfluous for this reason, that our inquiry relates to what is promised in heaven, not on earth. But we do confess our inquiry relates to what is promised in heaven, not on earth. But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, 'let down from heaven,' which the apostle also calls 'our mother from above;' and, while declaring that our citizenship, is in heaven, he predicates of it that it is really a city in heaven … We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection, and refreshing them with the abundance of all really spiritual blessings, as a recompense for those which in the world we have either despised or lost; since it is both just and God-worthy that His servants should have their joy in the place where they have also suffered affliction for His name’s sake.​

Tertullian (160 – 220 AD) said in Against Marcion, Book IV, Chapter 38:

You see how pertinent it was to the case in point. Because the question concerned the next world, and He was going to declare that no one marries there, He opens the way by laying down the principles that here, where there is death, there is also marriage. But they whom God shall account worthy of the possession of that world and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; forasmuch as they cannot die any more, since they become equal to the angels, being made the children of God and of the resurrection.

Tertullian wrote in On the Resurrection of the Flesh (Chapter 26):

In Isaiah, “‘Ye shall eat the good of the land’, the expression means the blessings which await the flesh when in the kingdom of God it shall be renewed, and made like the angels, and waiting to obtain the things ‘which neither eye hath seen, nor ear heard, and which have not entered into the heart of man’ … You will reckon, (I suppose) onions and truffles among earth's bounties, since the Lord declares that ‘man shall not live on bread alone!’ In this way the Jews lose heavenly blessings, by confining their hopes to earthly ones, being ignorant of the promise of heavenly bread, and of the oil of God’s unction, and the wine of the Spirit, and of that water of life which has its vigour from the vine of Christ. On exactly the same principle, they consider the special soil of Judæa to be that very holy land, which ought rather to be interpreted of the Lord’s flesh, which, in all those who put on Christ, is thenceforward the holy land; holy indeed by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, truly flowing with milk and honey by the sweetness of His assurance, truly Judæan by reason of the friendship of God.

Even Barnabas (who Premils wrongly claim was Premil) teaches The Epistle of Barnabas (Chapter 6):

[T]he prophet proclaimed, “Enter ye into the land flowing with milk and honey, and have dominion over it.” … We, then, are they whom He has led into the good land. What, then, mean milk and honey? This, that as the infant is kept alive first by honey, and then by milk, so also we, being quickened and kept alive by the faith of the promise and by the word, shall live ruling over the earth.

Barnabas spiritualises the Old Testament land promises in a manner that would cause modern premillennialists to go cross-eyed. This is a classic Amillennial approach to the fulfilment of Old Testament prophesies in a New Testament context. He also applies the promises made to natural Israel in the Old Testament to the New Testament church today.

J. Lebreton aptly remarks, “not indeed to the deep thought of the Church, but, at least, to the danger which Judaism constituted for it, and the Church’s reaction to the danger.”

Barnabas continues in Chapter XVI:

Let us inquire, then, if there still is a temple of God. There is—where He himself declared He would make and finish it. For it is written, “And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple of God shall be built in glory in the name of the Lord.” I find, therefore, that a temple does exist. Learn, then, how it shall be built in the name of the Lord. Before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak, as being indeed like a temple made with hands. For it was full of idolatry, and was a habitation of demons, through our doing such things as were opposed to [the will of] God. But it shall be built, observe ye, in the name of the Lord, in order that the temple of the Lord may be built in glory. How? Learn [as follows]. Having received the forgiveness of sins, and placed our trust in the name of the Lord, we have become new creatures, formed again from the beginning. Wherefore in our habitation God truly dwells in us. How? His word of faith; His calling of promise; the wisdom of the statutes; the commands of the doctrine; He himself prophesying in us; He himself dwelling in us … This is the spiritual temple built for the Lord.

This means that at an extremely early date, even perhaps overlapping with the writings of the Apostle John, there are those in the church who have replaced Israel entirely with the Church in terms of future blessings. As Diprose notes, ―Barnabas shows little respect for Old Testament institutions. For example, in chapter XVI, 7 a temple made with hands is likened to a habitation of demons, full of idolatry. The writing as a whole, manifests the latent presupposition that the Church, the true heir of the promises, occupies the place that Israel had always been unworthy of occupying. Obviously, to these kinds of Christians there can be no chiliastic hopes involving a restored national Israel, temple, and Jerusalem.

Tertullian further states:

His Holy Spirit, who builds the church, which is indeed the temple, and household and city of God (Against Marcion Book III, Chapter 23).​

He adds:

For he had seen Christ the Lord, the temple of God, and also the gate by whom heaven is entered (Against Marcion Book III, Chapter 25).​

Lactantius also presents a spiritual expectation:

The world has been created for this purpose, that we may be born; we are born for this end, that we may acknowledge the Maker of the world and of ourselves — God; we acknowledge Him for this end, that we may worship Him; we worship Him for this end, that we may receive immortality as the reward of our labours, since the worship of God consists of the greatest labours; for this end we are rewarded with immortality, that being made like to the angels, we may serve the Supreme Father and Lord for ever, and may be to all eternity a kingdom to God. This is the sum of all things, this the secret of God, this the mystery of the world, from which they are estranged, who, following present gratification, have devoted themselves to the pursuit of earthly and frail goods, and by means of deadly enjoyments have sunk as it were in mire and mud their souls, which were born for heavenly pursuits (Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter 6).​

Yes, you're putting a lot of things side by side and then painting a false picture of what the so-called collage means. Some, like Lactantius, saw the Millennium as focused more on those who are being ruled over, whereas Tertullian and others like him, focused on the glorified Church and their place in the Millennial Kingdom, perhaps even without recognition of any mortals being there.

However, even Tertullian likely acknowledged that there would be a future rebellion led by Satan, and he makes no explanation, that I know of, as to how this evolves in a world in which only glorified saints live? So I think perhaps we just aren't getting the whole picture. But we all agree that glorified saints will be there in a state of perfection.

Then you re-state something we've long already agreed on that even the early Chiliasts tended towards Replacement Theology. So I don't know why you continue to bring this up unless it is your old wish to identify RT with Amil in order to identify Chiliasts with Amils?

But RT does not make Chiliasts Amils! RT does not belong to Amillennialism! Where did you get that idea?

But you wish to identify Chiliasts more with Amils by virtue of their agreement over RT, and distinguish these from modern Premils who focus more on Israel than the early Chiliasts.

Again, as I've pointed out before, modern Premils are not owned by Dispensationalists. And before the Chiliasts made their contribution, Jesus and John focused more on Israel than the early Chiliasts did, obviously because Israel had not largely disappeared into the background yet.

So I agree with the Chiliasts' coalition with the Apostle John and his Premillennialism. But I agree with Jesus and John on the matter of Israel. But the Chiliasts, Jesus, and John were believers in the Millennium.

And modern Premillennialists have that in common with them, as well. None of them were Amillennial!!!!
 
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Truth7t7

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Well yes, that's a great passage to quote in this regard. It doesn't set aside the passages about Israel's inheritance of the Millennial Kingdom, nor about the inheritance of Christian nations of the Millennial Kingdom. But it does point out that unless there is a true spiritual conversion, the fallen flesh will disqualify anybody in the Millennium from inheriting God's eternal Kingdom, even while it rules on the earth. They will die, and be only a temporary inhabitant of that Kingdom age, and will not inherit it for eternity.

Your view of Rev 11 seems strange, with all due respect. It is talking about the inception of the Messianic Kingdom, and not just the Kingdom of the Father! And if that's when Messiah's reign begins, then it must be a future Kingdom, not yet here.
Your whole claim of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a fairy tale dream, found no place in scripture

You continue to use the words "Millennial Kingdom" as if it exist in scripture, it's a man made fairy tale found no place in scripture

Randy's Zionism on open display, dreams and fairy tales
 
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WPM

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Jesus said this when the Law was still in effect, ie under the Old Covenant. So the "elect" had to refer to believers in Israel.

You are blinded by your Zionism. Its roots are with the heretics. These NT books were written after the cross. This blows apart your Judaizing.
 
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Randy Kluth

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You are blinded by your Zionism. Its roots are with the heretics. These NT books were written after the cross. This blows apart your Judaizing.

I'm a blind Zionist, a heretic, and a Judaizer? And this from a guy who complains that I'm mean and identify you as a Replacement Theologian. ;)
 

Truth7t7

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So I agree with the Chiliasts' coalition with the Apostle John and his Premillennialism. But I agree with Jesus and John on the matter of Israel. But the Chiliasts, Jesus, and John were believers in the Millennium.
Randy is watching Pinocchio's nose grow again and again, your claims above are laughable!

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire!
 
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Randy Kluth

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Sorry to jump in here out of nowhere...and I confess I haven't read the entire thread. However...I must admit to being slightly amused when debates arise over the soundness of a doctrine, especially grounding them within the work of the early church fathers. Surely they wrote many things that were of worth, and it is true that their proximity to the cross would have awarded them a perspective others did not have. However...it seems somewhat obvious that even then...(it is even confronted within the pages of scripture!) that aberrant doctrines...heresies, if you will, were rampant.
So...it seems evident to me, what we have here, is a thread reaching over 160 pages long, showcasing the fact that no matter the time in history, man will read into...or out of...scripture, whatever he chooses. Be it for his own purposes, or simply because we each see things so very differently. Who knows.
All this to say...I think it can certainly be interesting to see what the church fathers said on certain issues, but true debate on a doctrine, and how one determines its legitimacy, needs to rest solely upon the word of God.
And, while I cannot agree with the OP and call Premillennialists outright heretics...I don't see it in scripture.

It's unfortunate that others cannot be as gracious towards Premils as you are! At least one here who is not Premil feels that I'm not a heretic. ;)
 

Randy Kluth

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The ironic thing is: in keeping with the early Amillennialists, many of the early Chiliasts emphasized the New Testament heavenly spiritual hope rather than an earthly carnal one, as most contemporary Premillennialists promote. They spiritualized the fulfillment of Israel's hope, relating it to the Church, the Promised Land being Christ, and, in doing so, they expose the faulty Premil literalist obsession.

Chiliast Methodius (Bishop of Olympus, Asia Minor) denounces the materialistic approach of the apostate Jews (which sadly many Premillennialists advocate today):

[T]he Jews, fluttering about the bare letter of Scripture, like drones about the leaves of herbs, but not about flowers and fruits as the bee, fully believe that these words and ordinances were spoken concerning such a tabernacle as they erect; as if God delighted in those trivial adornments which they, preparing, fabricate from trees, not perceiving the wealth of good things to come; whereas these things, being like air and phantom shadows, foretell the resurrection and the putting up of our tabernacle that had fallen upon the earth, which at length, in the seventh thousand of years, resuming again immortal, we shall celebrate the great feast of true tabernacles in the new and indissoluble creation, the fruits of the earth having been gathered in, and men no longer begetting and begotten, but God resting from the works of creation (Banquet of the Ten Virgins, Discourse 9:1).​

Methodius concludes, showing the feast of tabernacles to be a type of an incorruptible future millennial age:

Wherefore let it shame the Jews that they do not perceive the deep things of the Scriptures, thinking that nothing else than outward things are contained in the law and the prophets; for they, intent upon things earthly, have in greater esteem the riches of the world than the wealth which is of the soul (Banquet of the Ten Virgins, Discourse 9:1).​

Justin describes the spiritual nature of the kingdom that is approaching as spiritual and heavenly:

[W]hen you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid (The First Apology of Justin, Chapter XI (11) —What Kingdom Christians Look For).​

Justin did not look for a carnal temporary human kingdom on this earth when Christ comes, but a heavenly one. His words seem to dismiss the whole modern-day Premillennialist expectation of a restoration of old covenant practices with natural Israel being elevated above all others nation for a thousand years. He negates the idea of mortals saturating the new earth. Justin strongly responds: For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ.”

Let me be clear about this. Allegorizing Israel and applying OT biblical truths to the Church does not automatically justify allegorization of all truth, including the allegorization of the Millennium. I well believe that spiritual principles applied to OT Israel can apply to the present-day Church. I well believe that the Cross has usurped and supplanted the Law of Moses, that NT theology has superseded OT theology. The NT temple is Christ.

But none of this justifies using allegory as a system of interpretation in all cases. Each case must be considered separately. And I find no basis for viewing the Millennium in an allegorical way.
 

WPM

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Yes, you're putting a lot of things side by side and then painting a false picture of what the so-called collage means. Some, like Lactantius, saw the Millennium as focused more on those who are being ruled over, whereas Tertullian and others like him, focused on the glorified Church and their place in the Millennial Kingdom, perhaps even without recognition of any mortals being there.

However, even Tertullian likely acknowledged that there would be a future rebellion led by Satan, and he makes no explanation, that I know of, as to how this evolves in a world in which only glorified saints live? So I think perhaps we just aren't getting the whole picture. But we all agree that glorified saints will be there in a state of perfection.

That is not true! You constantly want to rewrite history to suit your crumbling doctrine. You have no historic quotes because you cannot be bothered studying history, and are therefore ignorant of the subject you claim to speak authoritatively on. Tertullian did not believe what you believe. History proves, the Pharisees and the heretics were the one's who advocated what you believe.

Then you re-state something we've long already agreed on that even the early Chiliasts tended towards Replacement Theology. So I don't know why you continue to bring this up unless it is your old wish to identify RT with Amil in order to identify Chiliasts with Amils?

But RT does not make Chiliasts Amils! RT does not belong to Amillennialism! Where did you get that idea?

Not RT, but NT Christianity, something you have an issue with. You have to depend upon the OT prophets because you have nothing in the New Testament, including Revelation 20.

But you wish to identify Chiliasts more with Amils by virtue of their agreement over RT, and distinguish these with modern Premils who focus more on Israel than the early Chiliasts. Again, as I've pointed out before, modern Premils are not owned by Dispensationalists. And before the Chiliasts made their contribution, Jesus and John focused more on Israel than the early Chiliasts did, obviously because Israel had not largely disappeared into the background yet.

So I agree with the Chiliasts' coalition with the Apostle John and his Premillennialism. But I agree with Jesus and John on the matter of Israel. But the Chiliasts, Jesus, and John were believers in the Millennium.

And modern Premillennialists have that in common with them, as well. None of them were Amillennial!!!!

Amils and early Chiliasts were indeed on the same page on most end time subjects. Early Chiliasm was a completely different animal to modern Premil. It was more akin to Amil on most of its view of the character of the age to come. Amillennialists and Chiliasts remained united in their perfect and pristine expectation of the approaching age, not the ugly sin-curse goat-infested death-blighted future millennium you promote.

Your beliefs are sourced with the early heretics and the Pharisees.
 

Randy Kluth

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Tertullian wrote in Against Marcion Book III (Chapter 24):

As for the restoration of Judæa, however, which even the Jews themselves, induced by the names of places and countries, hope for just as it is described, it would be tedious to state at length how the figurative interpretation is spiritually applicable to Christ and His church, and to the character and fruits thereof … At present, too, it would be superfluous for this reason, that our inquiry relates to what is promised in heaven, not on earth. But we do confess our inquiry relates to what is promised in heaven, not on earth. But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, 'let down from heaven,' which the apostle also calls 'our mother from above;' and, while declaring that our citizenship, is in heaven, he predicates of it that it is really a city in heaven … We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection, and refreshing them with the abundance of all really spiritual blessings, as a recompense for those which in the world we have either despised or lost; since it is both just and God-worthy that His servants should have their joy in the place where they have also suffered affliction for His name’s sake.​

Tertullian (160 – 220 AD) said in Against Marcion, Book IV, Chapter 38:

You see how pertinent it was to the case in point. Because the question concerned the next world, and He was going to declare that no one marries there, He opens the way by laying down the principles that here, where there is death, there is also marriage. But they whom God shall account worthy of the possession of that world and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; forasmuch as they cannot die any more, since they become equal to the angels, being made the children of God and of the resurrection.

Again, belief that Christ superseded the Law, and that heavenly reality is the substance and temporal earthly realities merely shadows, we all agree on. We all believe we should "set our minds on things above, and not on the earth." Our hope, Christ, is in heaven with God the Father. And it is from him we receive both our righteousness and our justification. And it is from him that we shall obtain our resurrection and immortality.

None of this means that God's Kingdom will not be applied to the earth in the eschatological Kingdom of Christ. Man was called from the beginning to subdue the earth. And the man from heaven will subdue the earth right here, where we live.

The attack on modern Premillennialism is rooted in a dualism that cuts off earthly Israel form the heavenly Church. No such dichotomy exists with either Jesus or Paul. The Kingdom of heaven will be established on the earth, remaking Israel into a Christian nation, and forcing the world to accept Christian nations.
 

WPM

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Let me be clear about this. Allegorizing Israel and applying OT biblical truths to the Church does not automatically justify allegorization of all truth, including the allegorization of the Millennium. I well believe that spiritual principles applied to OT Israel can apply to the present-day Church. I well believe that the Cross has usurped and supplanted the Law of Moses, that NT theology has superseded OT theology. The NT temple is Christ.

But none of this justifies using allegory as a system of interpretation in all cases. Each case must be considered separately. And I find no basis for viewing the Millennium in an allegorical way.
  1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
  2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
  3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
  4. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
  5. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
  6. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
  7. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
  8. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
  9. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
  10. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
  11. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
  12. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
  13. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?
 
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