22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Truth7t7

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Okay, now you are acknowledging that the thousand years will end and then Satan will be loosed. But, haven't you said before that the last day when all of the dead are resurrected occurs at the end of the thousand years? But, that can't be the case since there is more time that goes by after that during which Satan is loosed. The last day instead has to be the last day of Satan's little season which occurs after the thousand years ends and leads up to the return of Christ on the last day.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Yes, the thousand years is not a literal thousand years, but it does have a beginning and an end. When it ends, then Satan is loosed. Do you agree? Christ will return on the last day of Satan's little season, not the last day of the thousand years. I don't think you understand that at this point.
One again and again and again the words (Thousand Years) is a non-literal explanation for the Lord's spiritual

Satan was bound in the Lord's spiritual (Thousand Years) and he will be released in the Lord's spiritual (Thousand Years) to deceive the nations

(Thousand Years) ends for Satan's binding, it isn't literal to begin with, but you project it has a beginning and an ending when Satan is loosed for a season, it's showing nothing more than Satan was bound and released in the spiritual, not a literal (Thousand Years) ending as you believe

As seen below the Lord's spiritual is described as a day is a thousand years, it's not literal

We Disagree, I have done my best to explain (Thousand Years) and it's interpretation as being the Lord's eternal spiritual realm, and not earthly time, it's that simple

The Hourse Is Dead, I Have Clearly Explained My Belief

(Thousand Years) or (One Day) there is no time in the Lord's eternal Spiritual, Alpha/Omega

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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One again and again and again the words (Thousand Years) is a non-literal explanation for the Lord's spiritual

Satan was bound in the Lord's spiritual (Thousand Years) and he will be released in the Lord's spiritual (Thousand Years) to deceive the nations

(Thousand Years) ends for Satan's binding, it isn't literal to begin with, but you project it has a beginning and an ending when Satan is loosed for a season, it's showing nothing more than Satan was bound and released in the spiritual, not a literal (Thousand Years) ending as you believe
Why does it say Satan is loosed after the thousand years has ended if it's not meant to be taken as an actual period of time (not a literal thousand years, but still figuratively representing a long period of time with a beginning and ending)? I don't believe that makes any sense.

As seen below the Lord's spiritual is described as a day is a thousand years, it's not literal

We Disagree, I have done my best to explain (Thousand Years) and it's interpretation as being the Lord's eternal spiritual realm, and not earthly time, it's that simple

The Hourse Is Dead, I Have Clearly Explained My Belief
You have not clearly explained how Satan's little season fits in your belief, but I won't harp on this any longer. I just can't make sense of your particular belief which I have never seen before.

(Thousand Years) or (One Day) there is no time in the Lord's eternal Spiritual, Alpha/Omega

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Peter 3:8 has no direct relationship to Revelation 20. The thousand years of Revelation 20 clearly has a beginning and ending, but you're talking about eternity instead.
 

Truth7t7

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You have not clearly explained how Satan's little season fits in your belief, but I won't harp on this any longer. I just can't make sense of your particular belief which I have never seen before.
Satans Little Season Seen Below

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

(Little Season) Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations
which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Little Season) (Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
 
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Truth7t7

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2 Peter 3:8 has no direct relationship to Revelation 20. The thousand years of Revelation 20 clearly has a beginning and ending, but you're talking about eternity instead.
2 Peter 3:8 interprets (Thousand Years) in Revelation 20, as it's in the spiritual realm of one day is a thousand years, Angel, Heaven, Satan, Devil, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ, 100% spiritual realm

(Thousand Years) is equivalent to (Lord's Eternal Spiritual Realm) there is no beginning or end Alpha/Omega

Feel free to disagree, you can have the last post on your disagreement
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Satans Little Season Seen Below

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

(Little Season) Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations
which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Little Season) (Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Again, what you're saying does not take into account that it clearly says Satan's little season occurs right after the thousands years ends.

Revelation 20:3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

I'm not sure why you can't see that Satan is released when the thousand years ends since these verses make that very clear. So, it can't be the case that "If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign" as you claimed since that would not allow for Satan's little season to occur unless it only lasted one day. One day before the second coming would be during Satan's little season, not during the thousand years because Satan's little season FOLLOWS the end of the thousand years as Revelation 20:3 and Revelation 20:7 make abundantly clear.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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2 Peter 3:8 interprets (Thousand Years) in Revelation 20, as it's in the spiritual realm of one day is a thousand years, Angel, Heaven, Satan, Devil, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ, 100% spiritual realm

(Thousand Years) is equivalent to (Lord's Eternal Spiritual Realm) there is no beginning or end Alpha/Omega

Feel free to disagree, you can have the last post on your disagreement
Yes, I disagree, because what you're saying does not fit the context of 2 Peter 3:8. All Peter was saying in 2 Peter 3:8-9 is that no one should think that the Lord is being slow to return because time has no effect on the Lord. None whatsoever. So, from His perspective He is not being slow to return. No amount of time could make it so that someone could say He is being slow to return because time has no affect on Him.

What 2 Peter 3:8 means is that no amount of time including one day or a thousand years makes any difference to the Lord since He created time and exists outside of time. Even if He waited a million years to return, no one could claim that He was being slow to return because a million years is nothing to Him. That verse isn't saying that a thousand years represents time in the spiritual realm or anything like that. The context of the verse does not support that at all. It's about time as it relates to the Lord. It has no affect on Him whatsoever because He is eternal.
 
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Timtofly

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Not so! Dionysius describes the millennium Cerinthus anticipated in the future. It is a classic but crude summation of many of the core tenets of modern-day Premillenialism.

Cerinthus, who founded the sect which was called, after him, the Cerinthian, desiring reputable authority for his fiction, prefixed the name. For the doctrine which he taught was this: that the kingdom of Christ will be an earthly one. And as he was himself devoted to the pleasures of the body and altogether sensual in his nature, he dreamed that that kingdom would consist in those things which he desired, namely, in the delights of the belly and of sexual passion, that is to say, in eating and drinking and marrying, and in festivals and sacrifices and the slaying of victims, under the guise of which he thought he could indulge his appetites with a better grace (Church History, Book III, Chapter 28).​

This summary covers some of the core tenets of what we know today as Premillennialism. But the key element that is present here, but absent in the Chiliast hope, is where Dionysius describes Cerinthus’ expectation of a return to the Jewish “festivals and sacrifices and the slaying of victims.” Cerinthus saw the reintroduction of the old covenant arrangement. With the return of “festivals and sacrifices,” came (of necessity) the rebuilding of the Jewish temple and the restoration of the old covenant priesthood. This was anathema to orthodox early Christianity. It ran contrary to New Testament teaching and principles.

The early Christians writers of all shades believed that Christ was the last sacrifice for sin. They held that the old covenant was a temporary imperfect unsatisfactory covenant pointing forward to the Lord Jesus Christ and His eternal sacrifice. They taught that the new divine arrangement had superseded the shadow, type and figure.

There is no allowance made by the Patristic writers for a restoration of the Old Testament sacrifice system with its festivals and feast, its meat offerings, sin offerings, trespass offerings, burnt offerings, peace offerings and drink offerings. They made no mention, as today, of “memorial sacrifices.” That is a modern man-made extra-biblical term that is rabbited by the masses in order to justify the unjustifiable.

The old imperfect sacrifices made by the representative priests in the old covenant were superseded at the cross by the one final satisfactory sacrifice by the one true eternal priest – the Lord Jesus Christ. Man has now only one true heavenly high priest and requires none other. The new covenant with a new priesthood had eternally removed the old covenant with the old priesthood.

Eusebius the historian records Caius of Rome, (17 December, AD 283 to 22 April, AD 296), in his criticism of Cerinthus. He does not go into all the detail of Dionysius, but makes general sweeping statements in regard to his Premillennialism:

By means of revelations which he pretends were written by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things which he falsely claims were shown him by angels; and he says that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ will be set up on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem will again be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy of the Scriptures of God, he asserts, with the purpose of deceiving men, that there is to be a period of a thousand years for marriage festivals (Church History, Book III, Chapter 28).​

Cerinthus was a follower and advocate of the Jewish law, something Epiphanius (who was Bishop of Constantia in Cyprus, 310-403AD) alludes to in his writings:

Cerinthus … adhered in part to Judaism. He, however, claims that the Law and prophets have been given by the angels, and the law-giver is one of the angels who have made the world (The Panarion, Against Cerinthians or Merinthians, 1:3).

He goes on to allege:

Cerinthus stirred the circumcised multitudes up over Peter on his return to Jerusalem by saying, “He went in to men uncircumcised.” Cerinthus did this before preaching his doctrine in Asia and falling into the deeper pit of his destruction. For, because he was circumcised himself he sought an excuse, through circumcision if you please, for his opposition to the uncircumcised believers (The Panarion, Against Cerinthians or Merinthians, 2:5-6).​

Theodoret (Antioch Syria, died October 22, 362) also strongly repudiates Cerinthus and his false teaching, saying:

For, unlike that of Cerinthus and of those whose views are similar to his, the kingdom of our God and Saviour is not to be of this earth, nor circumscribed by a specific time. Those men create for themselves in imagination a period of a thousand years, and luxury that will pass, and other pleasures, and along with them, sacrifices and Jewish solemnities. As for ourselves, we await the life that knows no growing old (Compendium of Heretics’ Fables, 5.21).​

This is the simplistic early overview of modern day Premilennialism. It is what they teach and preach. Little do many know, but, the ancient source of their teaching is the ancient Judaizing heretics. The cross does not seem satisfactory, efficacious and final enough for this founder of early Premillennialist. He wrongly and strongly promoted the full reinstitution of the redundant old covenant arrangement with its multiple additional sin offerings to atone for the sins of man in the future. The “sacrifices and Jewish solemnities” endorsed to arise in a future millennium refers to the full gamut of the Old Testament Mosaic sacrifice system. Cerinthus is the first promoter of a thousand years of blood-letting surrounding the abolished old covenant feasts and festivals.
How in the world did Cerinthus know of a thousand year period prior to John writing his 7 letters to the seven churches in Asia after Peter was already dead?

Are you claiming John was wrong, because some false teacher brought up a millennial reign even before John was on Patmos?

Peter claimed 1,000 year periods, although you deny that with some bizarre reasoning. You claim Peter was comparing two symbolic references, to show what eternity is to God. That is bizarre since he was talking about scoffers who claimed no change whatsoever since the big bang. Peter was talking about creation not God outside of creation.

If Cerinthus was a contemporary of Peter, what does that have to do with Chiliast in regards to Revelation 20? No one even knows if letters of Revelation circulated out of Turkey until the 2nd century. Are you putting an alleged "forefather" of a text, before the text was even written? Cerinthus was no more teaching about the book of Revelation than Paul was. Paul died before the book was written, as well as Peter. At least Paul had the Holy Spirit, but your alleged "forefather" was not inspired by the Holy Spirit so cannot count as presenter of a Biblical 1,000 year reign of Christ.

He would have been a Gnostic Judaizer at the most. Perhaps he was looking for a reign of some Messianic leader, but that is hardly what pre-mill is about today. Although I seem to be a correct on the fringe pre-mill who no one can understand, because I speak Bible and not thousands of years of human theology.
 

Naomi25

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Unfortunately; this belief won't happen. Over 20 Prophesies in the OT tell of the virtual demise of the house of Judah, and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

There is enough ambiguity within the text to allow some wiggle room, I feel. On one hand we have talk of a remnant, and on the other we have Paul speaking of 'full' and 'all'. I don't, for one moment believe that every single ethnic Jew will become a believer in Christ. But I do think we'll see many of them, perhaps more than we do now, coming to the realization that Christ is their long-awaited Messiah.

Romans 11:12
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

Romans 11:24–26
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;


That remnant has to be those who have become Christian NOW. When the Lord sends His fiery wrath, it will be too late.
Exactly as Zechariah 13:8-9 puts it; 2/3rds will die on that Day, then the rest will be refined by fire, Isaiah 6:11-13, and only a remnant 'stump' of them will join with their Christian brethren. As Jeremiah 12:14-16 prophesies.

People who believe in a Jewish redemption and restoration, have simply not read what God has told us thru His Prophets, that He intends to do.
If I had a squinty-eyed emoji...I'd use that. I'm...unsure where, or if, I've given the impression that I believe anyone...Jews included...have the luxury of getting a do-over once Christ returns. I absolutely believe that there is only one way to salvation; through Jesus. And if one has not received him as Christ and Lord before his return, then one has missed his chance for good, regardless of ethnicity.
My only point with Romans 11, is that I believe...or hope for, more ethnic Jewish people to become Christians before Christ returns. Full stop. No separate program or restoration. Just Jesus.
 
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Naomi25

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Did I say you hold to RT? No. I don't even know what you believe, except that you try to take a middle ground, and thus prevent any blowback against those who wish their position to not receive its proper trademark.
And...this is where I hop off the bus. You know good and well I said I don't like it when people point the RT label at me, so of course I hold to "it". So...I see what you're doing here. And I won't engage.
Have a good day.
 

Randy Kluth

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And...this is where I hop off the bus. You know good and well I said I don't like it when people point the RT label at me, so of course I hold to "it". So...I see what you're doing here. And I won't engage.
Have a good day.

I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Gbye.
 

CadyandZoe

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This is your whole argument. He didn't explicitly teach against it, so that somehow means He taught it?
The picture of the kingdom of God you reject is taught in the Hebrew Bible. He has no reason to teach something that is already known and taught among his people. The absence of his explicit teaching on the subject is not evidence that the concept of a physical kingdom on earth is wrong.

What He did teach is that His kingdom does not come with observation and is not of this world. So, He did implicitly teach against the idea of His kingdom being an earthly kingdom as you imagine.
Yes, he taught that the kingdom of God does not come with observation, and that it was not of this world. Taking the context into consideration we understand what he meant. The ruler of the kingdom was standing right in front of them. (The kingdom is among you.) And yet they couldn't see it. This is why he says that the kingdom doesn't come with observation. Rather, we know from his teaching that the kingdom is being built one person at a time from within. He tells Nicodemus that only those who have been born again can see and recognize the kingdom when it appears.

Even so, it does not follow, therefore, that God will not establish his kingdom on earth and rule from Jerusalem as he said.
Yeah, so? Again, Jesus Himself said that His kingdom does not come with observation and is not of this world. Do you not accept that?
The use of terms like "spiritual zion", for instance, support the contention that Jesus is already ruling on earth, which is really a stupid idea. Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Look around, open the window, and judge for yourself. Is the will of God being done on earth as it is in heaven? (sigh)

Where is this taught in scripture? Is that really what you think the OT saints described in Hebrews 11 were looking for?
Yes, have you never read that Abraham bought a field from Ephron the Hittite for a burial site? Genesis 49:30. Abraham was not waiting for an idealized kingdom in an ethereal world somewhere. His instinct was to preserve his remains in a safe place, expecting to rise from the dead in that location and live in an eternal kingdom on the earth.
The heavenly country they were looking for was contrasted with the earthly country.
Yes, that is what the Bible teaches. The term "heavenly" doesn't mean "spiritual" or "idealized." The adjective "heavenly" describes the quality of the country for which Abraham hoped. The word "heaven" literally refers to the stars and plants above, which continue to move in the patterns and routes that God gave them and they never change. The earth, by contrast, is a place that is always changing. The figurative use of "heaven" is employed to speak about the quality of heaven. That is, a "heavenly place" is a permanent place. The term "heavenly" connotes indestructability, immutability, and eternality. Speaking of our treasures, Jesus himself said,

Matthew 6:19-21
“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

The earth is a place where moth and rust can destroy things and where thieves can break in and steal our treasures, but such things cannot happen to treasures that we store in heaven. The treasures we seek, according to Jesus, should be those treasures that will last through eternity: treasures such as life, family, justice, love and etc. Paul said something similar in 1 Corinthians 13, where he announces "Love never fails." Above all else, he says, "faith", "hope" and "love" remain.

Premils like yourself just continually make claims without providing any scriptural support. That is very telling. I can only assume the reason for that is because you have none.
I have given you lots of scriptures to think about. Have you thought about them? I wonder.

Jesus taught his disciples to pray that God would bring about his kingdom ON EARTH. How can anyone repeat the Lord's prayer and fail to understand that Jesus anticipated a day when God would rule on earth?

You have focused on ONE particular verse wherein Jesus speaks about the kingdom of God. But the New Testament contains a hundred more, filling in our picture.
 
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CadyandZoe

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I am certain that he is well aware that not all premils believe the same. So, if any of his arguments don't apply to your particular view then just ignore it. No reason to be offended just because the argument doesn't address your particular view. He's making general arguments against premil.
Do you know what is really offensive is when someone presumes that my ideas can be dismissed because they are simply giving expression to an emotion. THAT my friend is offensive and presumptuous.

This is a very weak argument. I believe that is complete nonsense.
I didn't say Jesus ignored the subject. You asked me where Jesus gave an explicit teaching on the subject. My answer is that he doesn't need to give an explicit teaching on the subject because he and his people share a large collection of Holy Scriptures that talk about the subject in detail. This is a subject on which he and his people agree. What we expect to find, and do find, are commentaries on the subject, which Jesus actually provides.

Yes, but that is the new heavens and new earth "where righteousness dwells" (2 Peter 3:13). There is NOTHING in the NT hinting about some earthly kingdom where sin and death would continue on after His return.
Really? You believe a new earth is not an actual place? Wow.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Is this all you have? It simply makes no sense to think that this earthly kingdom you believe in would not be taught or referenced anywhere in the New Testament. If you can't see that then I don't know what else I can say about it.
No. There are a lot of other New Testament scriptures referring to a restored Nation of Israel.

Matthew 17:10-12.
10 And His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”

His disciples asked him about the restoration of Israel, which will begin with the coming of Elijah. Jesus did not disabuse them of the idea. In fact, he repeated the idea approvingly. Elijah IS coming and will restore all things. But not now. In the mean time, the people witnessed a man who came in the spirit of Elijah and look what they did to him. The son of man is also going to suffer at their hands. But Jesus was resurrected and the clear implication of the resurrection is the hope of Israel. If they killed Jesus and yet God raised him from the dead, then nothing can thwart God's plan to restore Israel as outlined by Malachi the prophet.

Acts 1:6-8
6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

Here we see what the disciples had on their minds as Jesus was about to leave. They ask whether this was the time when Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel. Jesus did not disabuse them of this concept. He believes that the kingdom will be restored to Israel just as God has said. But he doesn't know when it will take place. Jesus' words here contradict the Amillennial teaching that Jesus is ruling "spiritual Israel" presently. When asked about the restoration of the kingdom to Israel, Jesus said he didn't know when that would take place. The Amillennial answer would be, "I am already ruling the kingdom right now." But he didn't say that. Jesus believed that God would bring about a literal, physical kingdom on earth ruled from a literal, physical Jerusalem.

Acts 3:19-21
19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Here Peter also anticipates a period of restoration for the kingdom of Israel. He teaches his fellow kinsmen that Jesus is the Christ, appointed for them and that he has been taken up to heaven until such time that God decides to restore the kingdom to Israel. Peter's argument rests on the holy prophets, which both he and his people agree are without error. The prophets speak about the restoration of all things and Peter agrees with the prophets. The missing piece of information is the fact that Jesus the Christ was taken up to heaven to await for that day. Until that time, the word is to "repent and return."
 

Timtofly

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Well there is some loaded language!

I just said I believe what it says.

Are you thinking that every time a number is used in the Bible that it is figurative?

Revelation 17:9-13 KJV
9) And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10) And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12) And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

This is a prophetic narrative, and gives a very plausable sequence of events. The ten kings, having no kingdom yet, will receive power as kings for one hour, and for one hour they shall share power with the beast. Then, in unanimous agreement, they shall give their power to the beast. From that fact we can conclude that they will no longer be sharing power with the beast, having conceded their power to the beast, and therefore not having it any longer.

Is there some particular reason that you think that would not transpire within the space of 60 minutes?

Much love!
Obviously to Amil it is a figurative hour, since Revelation 19 is also figurative. Amil have an instant judgment that happens in seconds. "Instant" is their hyperliteral interpretation of all Scripture dealing with eschatology. Even the GWT is figurative and instant. They have not even acknowledged the 42 months of Satan completely in control of earth prior to the instant moment of their "Second Coming". To them it could be minutes, hours, days, a little season, who knows? Certainly to Amil, John was not being literal when he said 42 months in Revelation 13:5-7

They quote the OT when it suits them. They deny the OT when it suits them. They have turned the fulness of the Gentiles into a symbolic metaphor, instead of this time being literally for the Salvation of all humanity. Then they reject that all humanity could have been saved in the OT, because that point does not suit them. The OT was when Satan was loosed, so therefore the Gentiles had no means of coming to God's Grace.

They call Paul's allegory of the olive tree, a literal spiritual tree that has replaced the Lamb's book of life in their eschatology. Only certain humans could reside in this spiritual replacement of the Lamb's book of life. The part of reformed theology they claim to reject in soteriology but cling to in their eschatology. Taking a metaphor and making it hyperliteral.

Then they make the excuse Revelation is hyper symbolic, except they fudge and just say most symbolic book in the Bible. This point is just to make one doubt that Revelation cannot contain one literal thought, but can only be symbolic, hyper symbolism. Which they further mentally suggest that 1 hour is also not literal, because they claim it has no literal significance, because no time mentioned in Scripture is significant unless it is Daniel's 70 weeks. But not significant in relation to the book of Revelation.

So when some use Daniel 9 in corroboration with Revelation 10, Amil deny any relationship. They interpret the end of time mentioned in Revelation 10, in isolation to any other verse in the Bible. The only corroboration they have deals with unrelated ideas. Certainly the ideas they force onto the text, but not the ideas presented in the text of Revelation.

Amil can only apply Revelation 20 to soteriology and conflate the two teachings. That is the whole bases of their eschatology. Any reference to a physical resurrection they can find, they change to a spiritual application to define Salvation, thus applying the new birth to any reference in regards to a physical resurrection. The same is their point on this literal spiritual tree, they have invented from Paul's allegory. They are mixing Salvation and John's writing of future events to form a hybrid eschatology which is not eschatology, but merely soteriology. They then deny this, so as not to be confused with replacing Israel with the church, by calling it eschatology instead of soteriology.

Yet they replace the time frame of Revelation 20, and force it as the fulness of the Gentiles, ending at the Second Coming. When this is pointed out, their only rebuttal is we are deliberately misrepresenting their point of view. Obviously, because they are misrepresenting soteriology to cover their eschatology.

Ironically they then claim pre-mill who use the OT promises given to Abraham and Jacob, are just carnal judaizers. That is blatant misrepresentation of serious study of God's Word. No born again redeemed modern Christian is going to view eschatology through the lense of first century Judaism. Even first century judaizers rejected the OT Scriptures for their own well established theology.

Have there been carnal minded Christians down through the ages? Of course. Mainly those looking for power and financial gain. When posting online, it is kind of a presumptuous and unfounded accusation against online posters. So making it about us and personal attacks is telling. I have not been exposed to this alleged version of pre-mill, so either they are making this up, or just falsely accusing pre-mill in general. Certainly this carnal minded view of pre-mill is not mainstream. Now we are presented with an early church father (out of topic in this thread) who was dead, before the book of Revelation was even circulated amongst the early church. So he was not even about Revelation 20, but merely a first century Gnostic Judaizer. Certainly not one who made any significant comments on Revelation 20.

Obviously he escaped the events of 70AD and lived to about 100AD. But he would have corrupted any of John's writings like Amil do, not as a pre-mill interested in Christ having a kingdom on earth. Yes, adding personal opinion as if it was stated by the author, is corrupting the text. Amil call that forcing an idea into the text. But deny doing that themselves, but obviously that is exactly what they do. Calling Revelation 20 the here and now is forcing their ideogy onto the text. Plain reading comprehension places it chronologically after Armageddon. The result of Armageddon is that the FP and beast is cast into the LOF, while Satan is bound in the pit for 1,000 years, the same time period the other 2 are in the LOF. They were in the LOF when Satan was bound. They were in the LOF when Satan was loosed. They were still in the LOF when Satan was cast into the LOF. That is not changing, correcting, nor forcing one's ideology into the text. Trying to insinuate that Revelation is not chronological, is forcing one's ideology into the text. Trying to corroborate other OT uses of symbolism to define clear NT text is what Amil accuse pre-mill of doing, but do it themselves.
 

marks

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Plain reading comprehension places it chronologically after Armageddon. The result of Armageddon is that the FP and beast is cast into the LOF, while Satan is bound in the pit for 1,000 years, the same time period the other 2 are in the LOF. They were in the LOF when Satan was bound. They were in the LOF when Satan was loosed. They were still in the LOF when Satan was cast into the LOF. That is not changing, correcting, nor forcing one's ideology into the text.
I agree with you. This is the ordinary and plain saying from the text. Either we have the simplicity of just what it says, or the complexity of convoluted arguments of why we should not accept such plainness and simplicity.

Much love!
 

Truth7t7

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I agree with you. This is the ordinary and plain saying from the text. Either we have the simplicity of just what it says, or the complexity of convoluted arguments of why we should not accept such plainness and simplicity.

Much love!
Revelation 20:1-6 is very simple and easy to explain, those seen are in the spiritual realm, no kingdom or mortal humans on earth are seen and you know this

Angel, Heaven, Satan, Devil, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ, that doesn't equate to a literal Kingdom on this Earth, with mortal humans running about as you believe and teach

Those seen are 100% in the spiritual realm of the Lord's one day is a thousand years, "No Literal Earthly Time" it's that simple

Jesus Is The Lord

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Revelation 20:1-6 is very simple and easy to explain, those seen are in the spiritual realm, no kingdom or mortal humans on earth are seen and you know this

Angel, Heaven, Satan, Devil, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ, that doesn't equate to a literal Kingdom on this Earth, with mortal humans running about as you believe and teach

Those seen are 100% in the spiritual realm of the Lord's one day is a thousand years, "No Literal Earthly Time" it's that simple

Jesus Is The Lord

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
I don't see a spiritual realm in that passage. If you see one there, you brought it with you.
 

WPM

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Amil have an instant judgment that happens in seconds. "Instant" is their hyperliteral interpretation of all Scripture dealing with eschatology.

Finally, Premillennialist realize that we are the true literalists. They explain away so much in order to let their doctrine fit.
 

Truth7t7

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I don't see a spiritual realm in that passage. If you see one there, you brought it with you.
Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The picture of the kingdom of God you reject is taught in the Hebrew Bible. He has no reason to teach something that is already known and taught among his people.
This is a very weak argument. He taught plenty of things that were already known, so why not this as well?

The absence of his explicit teaching on the subject is not evidence that the concept of a physical kingdom on earth is wrong.
I believe it is. I see no reason why Jesus would have nothing to say about that when He had plenty to say about other things relating to the end times. The resurrection of the dead was already known about, but He still talked about it. The day of judgment was already known about, but He still talked about it. And so on. But nothing about an earthly kingdom? I believe that is strong evidence against the concept of a temporal physical earthly kingdom being established when He returns.

Yes, he taught that the kingdom of God does not come with observation, and that it was not of this world. Taking the context into consideration we understand what he meant. The ruler of the kingdom was standing right in front of them. (The kingdom is among you.) And yet they couldn't see it. This is why he says that the kingdom doesn't come with observation. Rather, we know from his teaching that the kingdom is being built one person at a time from within. He tells Nicodemus that only those who have been born again can see and recognize the kingdom when it appears.
That is not at all what He was saying to Nicodemus. Where is your discernment? He was talking about something that becomes a reality the very moment you are initially born again/saved. He was saying that those who are born again can see (spiritually perceive) the currently existing kingdom of God which is not something to be observed with our physical eyes. It seems that you don't even want to acknowledge that the kingdom of God exists right now and we are in it right now. Yes, it will come in its fullness in the future when Christ returns, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist even now spiritually.

Have you never read this:

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

Even so, it does not follow, therefore, that God will not establish his kingdom on earth and rule from Jerusalem as he said.
When did He say He will rule from Jerusalem?

The use of terms like "spiritual zion", for instance, support the contention that Jesus is already ruling on earth, which is really a stupid idea.
So, I guess you find the following passage to be stupid then.

Hebrews 12:18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm;...22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Look around, open the window, and judge for yourself. Is the will of God being done on earth as it is in heaven? (sigh)
Are you a child? Are you capable of discussing things like an adult? We all understand that the kingdom is coming in its fullness in the future. That isn't the issue we're discussing here. We may have different ideas of what the kingdom will look like in the future, but, again, that isn't what we are talking about here. We are talking about the kingdom of God as it exists right now. You don't seem to want to even acknowledge that it exists in any sense right now.

Yes, have you never read that Abraham bought a field from Ephron the Hittite for a burial site? Genesis 49:30. Abraham was not waiting for an idealized kingdom in an ethereal world somewhere. His instinct was to preserve his remains in a safe place, expecting to rise from the dead in that location and live in an eternal kingdom on the earth.
Yes, an eternal kingdom. But, you believe in a temporal kingdom being established on earth when Christ returns instead of an eternal one.

Yes, that is what the Bible teaches. The term "heavenly" doesn't mean "spiritual" or "idealized." The adjective "heavenly" describes the quality of the country for which Abraham hoped.
Of course. I didn't say otherwise. It will be perfect without sin and death. He was looking for "the new heaven and new earth where righteousness dwells" just like Peter says we should be looking for (2 Peter 3:13).

The word "heaven" literally refers to the stars and plants above, which continue to move in the patterns and routes that God gave them and they never change. The earth, by contrast, is a place that is always changing. The figurative use of "heaven" is employed to speak about the quality of heaven. That is, a "heavenly place" is a permanent place. The term "heavenly" connotes indestructability, immutability, and eternality.
Right. I didn't say otherwise. Abraham was looking for an eternal dwelling. The future temporal earthly kingdom you believe in is not that.

I have given you lots of scriptures to think about. Have you thought about them? I wonder.
Let me make it clear that it is very apparent to me that you have nothing to teach me.

Jesus taught his disciples to pray that God would bring about his kingdom ON EARTH. How can anyone repeat the Lord's prayer and fail to understand that Jesus anticipated a day when God would rule on earth?
But, that will be for ETERNITY, not just for 1000 years as you believe. This earth as we know it will be burned up and renewed (2 Peter 3:10-13), so you can't think that this 1000 year earthly kingdom you think will be established at Christ's return could possibly be eternal in light of what it teaches in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

You have focused on ONE particular verse wherein Jesus speaks about the kingdom of God. But the New Testament contains a hundred more, filling in our picture.
How are Luke 17:20 and John 18:36 one verse? There's Romans 14:17 and other verses that speak of the current spiritual kingdom as well. And, at least I acknowledge that the kingdom of God exists right now spiritually and we are in it. You don't seem to even understand that.
 
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