22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

Revelation 20:1-7 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

How many years will Satan be bound?

How many years will Satan be shut up in the abyss?

How many years will the martyrs reign with Christ?

How many years until the resurrection of the rest of the dead?

How many times does God have to tell us before it will be believed?

Here are 6 reasons to believe this will be 1000 years. Just from quoting the Bible.

Much love!

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one." This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

 

[Truth7t7]

You constantly require biblical evidence of my beliefs, and when I present them you discount them or delegitimize them. If you don't want my biblical evidence, don't ask for it!

This is true of about every discussion among Christians. Each party has his own set of Scriptural evidences. Each side presents that biblical evidence. This is mine, whether you agree with it or not. It is in fact *evidence,* whether you agree with it or not.

In a court a party provides *evidence.* The judge and jury may find that evidence compelling or not. But it is evidence. They don't say, "you have nothing," as you do. They don't disqualify the evidence just because it seems weak. It is real *evidence.*

The Olivet Discourse is evidence that Jesus referred to the restoration of Israel. He speaks of a great gathering of what can only be viewed as Israel at that time, since he was still speaking under the Old Covenant.

Acts 1.6-7 is evidence that Jesus affirmed the promise of Israel's national restoration, and not just a partial national restoration. He did so by indicating not that it wouldn't happen, but rather, by indicating it would happen in the Father's good time.

And Rom 9-11 is a constant reaffirmation that not only has Israel not been forgotten, but that its entire national hope would still be fulfilled. He denounced Christians as arrogant who felt that they had replaced Israel's hope as Gentiles.

You disagree, and I accept that. But don't say I bring zero evidence. That would be a lie.

Randy you bring zero evidence and false claims regarding scriptural support, Israel as a "Nation" has no future plan with God

As WPM has shown you several times, only the "Remnant Jew" sees a future, and when their salvation is obtained they become "Church" where neither Jew nor Greek exist

Poster's can claim Mickey Mouse and Pluto exist in the Bible, no different than your claims regarding "National Israel"

 

[covenantee]

It appears you've quoted this without attribution from someone else's work.

Charlemagne’s DNA and Our Universal Royalty

Much love!

It was originally public domain, permitting copying. I've added the attribution. Thanks.

I trust that it clarifies the identity of genetic (i.e. the physical seed of) Israel for you.

 

[marks]

Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one." This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Apples and oranges.

Follow the prophetic narrative. It's not a simile within a figurative context, as are your examples, it's a prophetic narrative, comparable to Jesus saying He would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

We can find numbers that are used figuratively, but we also find ordinal numbers. Compare prophetic narrative to prophetic narrative for a better understanding. Numbers in prophetic narratives . . . well, you can look and see for yourself how they are used, that would be best.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

Apples and oranges.

Follow the prophetic narrative. It's not a simile within a figurative context, as are your examples, it's a prophetic narrative, comparable to Jesus saying He would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

We can find numbers that are used figuratively, but we also find ordinal numbers. Compare prophetic narrative to prophetic narrative for a better understanding. Numbers in prophetic narratives . . . well, you can look and see for yourself how they are used, that would be best.

Much love!

If you are adamant in interpreting a thousand years hyper-literally, how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?

 

[WPM]

Apples and oranges.

Follow the prophetic narrative. It's not a simile within a figurative context, as are your examples, it's a prophetic narrative, comparable to Jesus saying He would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

We can find numbers that are used figuratively, but we also find ordinal numbers. Compare prophetic narrative to prophetic narrative for a better understanding. Numbers in prophetic narratives . . . well, you can look and see for yourself how they are used, that would be best.

Much love!

Premils ad-hoc approach to biblical interpretation is at the core of the Premil error:

(1) They totally reject the idea of corroboration when it comes to this doctrine because it does not exist in Holy Writ.
(2) Their fixation with this highly symbolic text located in the most obscure book in the Bible is the sole source of their theory.
(3) What they attribute to Revelation 20 does not actually exist in the text.
(4) Premils have to ignore the explicit climactic detail in Revelation 19 that forbids a Premil theory.
(5) Premils have to ignore/deny the fact that repeated Scripture teaches that Christ defeated/bound Satan 2000 years ago through His earthly ministry.
(6) They have to ignore/deny Christ's first resurrection 2000 years ago.
(7) The figure "a thousand" is used repeatedly in Scripture to mean a long period of time or a large amount.
(8) They have to ignore/deny that resurrection/judgment day is always described in the Bible in the singular and can only relate to the time after Satan's little season.
(9) They must deny the obvious connection between Satan's little season before the coming of Christ and all the other recaps in Revelation that show the same before the appearing of Christ.
(10) Premils invent another age in-between this age and the age to come that is unknown to the rest of Scripture.
(11) Revelation 20 actually outlines the Amil paradigm pertaining to the intra-Advent period.

 

[marks]

If you are adamant in interpreting a thousand years hyper-literally,

Well there is some loaded language!

I just said I believe what it says.

Are you thinking that every time a number is used in the Bible that it is figurative?

Revelation 17:9-13 KJV
9) And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10) And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12) And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

This is a prophetic narrative, and gives a very plausable sequence of events. The ten kings, having no kingdom yet, will receive power as kings for one hour, and for one hour they shall share power with the beast. Then, in unanimous agreement, they shall give their power to the beast. From that fact we can conclude that they will no longer be sharing power with the beast, having conceded their power to the beast, and therefore not having it any longer.

Is there some particular reason that you think that would not transpire within the space of 60 minutes?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Apples and oranges.

Follow the prophetic narrative. It's not a simile within a figurative context, as are your examples, it's a prophetic narrative, comparable to Jesus saying He would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

What does this even mean? How do you determine that the examples he gave where the term "thousand" was used figuratively are within a figurative context? What is this "prophetic narrative" of which you speak? Where is your evidence to show that a "prophetic narrative" demands that the word "thousand" must be used literally?

We can find numbers that are used figuratively, but we also find ordinal numbers. Compare prophetic narrative to prophetic narrative for a better understanding. Numbers in prophetic narratives . . . well, you can look and see for yourself how they are used, that would be best.

They are sometimes used literally and sometimes used figuratively. So, that doesn't help solve this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We Disagree

Revelation 20:4-6 is speaking of those that are physically dead in Jesus Christ, not of Jesus Christ as you believe and teach

What do you mean by that?

Their resurrection will take place at the end of the thousand years as shown, there are (Two Resurrections) on the last day, the righteous are blessed to be in the first of the two, that will be eternal to life, the wicked to eternal damnation

You understand that we agree on that, right? All Amils, including you and I, believe that the bodily resurrection of all of the dead in Christ will occur on the last day after the thousand years. The difference is that you see that as the first resurrection and I don't. I've actually never seen an Amil claim that is the first resurrection before.

The resurrection of Jesus Christ took place long ago, the thousand years will be finished at the "Second Coming", before your eyes, easy to understand

Do you think I disagree with this? I'm starting to wonder if you know what I believe or not. You know what Amils all agree on, don't you? We all believe that all of the dead, saved and lost, will be bodily resurrected after the thousand years.

I don't follow Ken Gentry or Kim Riddlebarger, perhaps you should consider the same, Sola scriptura!

I don't follow them, either. I never said I did.

When the thousand years are "Finished" the first resurrection takes place, read it again and again!

Revelation 20:5KJV
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Again, "the rest of the dead" not being alive again until the thousand years are finished are not part of the first resurrection. That part is a parenthetical statement. When it says "this is the first resurrection", it's referring back to those referenced in verse 4.

How can those who have part in the first resurrection reign with Christ for a thousand years if they don't even have part in the first resurrection until after the thousand years? Think about it. You are in error because of not recognizing that the first sentence in Revelation 20:5 is parenthetical.

 

[marks]

(11) Revelation 20 actually outlines the Amil paradigm pertaining to the intra-Advent period.

Only if you disbelieve what it says outright. And given all the places the Bible tells us about this kingdom period, I don't, I believe it.

(10) Premils invent another age in-between this age and the age to come that is unknown to the rest of Scripture.

I'm not inventing anything, I'm reading a passage of the Bible, and I believe what it says.

(9) They must deny the obvious connection between Satan's little season before the coming of Christ and all the other recaps in Revelation that show the same before the appearing of Christ.

Obvious connection between what, Satan being loosed to deceive the nations and the great tribulation? These are very different. If that what you have in mind, hard to be sure without you being more clear.

(8) They have to ignore/deny that resurrection/judgment day is always described in the Bible in the singular and can only relate to the time after Satan's little season.

Have you not read of the first and second resurrections? Separate by a thousand years?

(6) They have to ignore/deny Christ's first resurrection 2000 years ago.

This seems silly. Are you being serious?

(7) The figure "a thousand" is used repeatedly in Scripture to mean a long period of time or a large amount.

Sorry, missed this one . . . Numbers are used both figuratively, and as ordinals. Right? Is "every" "thousand" in the Bible figurative? Figurative passages should not be used to overturn the plain meaning of prophetic narrative "just because".

(5) Premils have to ignore/deny the fact that repeated Scripture teaches that Christ defeated/bound Satan 2000 years ago through His earthly ministry.

Peter wrote that as a lion Satan roams about looking for people to eat. You are asserting that the binding of Satan took place then, but the Bible shows this happening after Jesus returns to the earth in power and glory.

(4) Premils have to ignore the explicit climactic detail in Revelation 19 that forbids a Premil theory.

No I don't. Whatever it is you are talking about, again, I'd know what you were referring to if you said it. But really, just a "stock accusation", not related to our particular discussion, or so it seems to me.

Again, wisdom is justified by her children.

(3) What they attribute to Revelation 20 does not actually exist in the text.

Surprising to find this in your list! I'm reading the text, and accepting as a prophetic narrative telling me what will be.

(2) Their fixation with this highly symbolic text located in the most obscure book in the Bible is the sole source of their theory.

Meaningless. Is nothing in the Revelation not a symbol? Of course there are things not symbols. What about the other numbers? How many trumpets? How many bowls? How many . . . I could go on. And,

What makes the Revelation "obscure"? It's in every Bible I own. It't translated into all the languages, all that? And I think what you mean here is the sole source for the duration of the kingdom. But there is much in the Bible about that period of time. Perhaps you will find some of the other prophets less "obscure"?

(1) They totally reject the idea of corroboration when it comes to this doctrine because it does not exist in Holy Writ.

6 times God says "a thousand years" and "the thousand years". How many were you hoping for?

Much love!

 

[WPM]

Well there is some loaded language!

I just said I believe what it says.

Are you thinking that every time a number is used in the Bible that it is figurative?

Revelation 17:9-13 KJV
9) And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10) And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12) And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

This is a prophetic narrative, and gives a very plausable sequence of events. The ten kings, having no kingdom yet, will receive power as kings for one hour, and for one hour they shall share power with the beast. Then, in unanimous agreement, they shall give their power to the beast. From that fact we can conclude that they will no longer be sharing power with the beast, having conceded their power to the beast, and therefore not having it any longer.

Is there some particular reason that you think that would not transpire within the space of 60 minutes?

Much love!

I am showing you the inconsistency and folly of the Premil logic. It doesn't add up or make sense. Premils make it up as they go. It is like the mark of the beast, they are so insistent on it being hyper-literal yet when it comes to the mark of God, which is mentioned more times in Revelation, they suddenly and effortlessly apply a spiritual meaning to that. It is double-standards. But that is Premil. Look at the climactic detail of 2 Peter 3 or Revelation 19. Literal rules of interpretation are thrown out the window here in order to facilitate Premil.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then start retaining this. I've responded to this every time, and you show no understanding with how I'm dealing with it. That's why you think I don't respond to you, because it's not the response you want.

I didn't say you didn't respond to me. I was saying you don't remember what I've told you multiple times before. You response here shows that you don't read what I say carefully enough because I said nothing about you not responding to me. Instead, I'm talking about you not remembering what I've told you before.

I'll try again, since you sound quite sincere, unlike PM. I know you don't believe "spiritual Israel" replaces "physical Israel." The point is, that DOESN'T MATTER!

But, when people use the term "replacement theology", that is normally what they are talking about. I don't know why you are using that term.

RT may very likely accept that there is both a spiritual Israel and a physical Israel.

What RT does do, however, is make spiritual Israel the true fulfillment of "Israel." And that is RT, and what you believe.

LOL. It's hilarious to me that you try to tell me what I believe instead of letting me tell you what I believe. What does making spiritual Israel the true fulfillment of "Israel" even mean? I believe spiritual Israel is the true fulfillment of spiritual Israel.

In stating that spiritual Israel is the true heir of "Israel"

When have I stated that? I haven't.

you're making physical Israel a mere typology of no real value, except as a shadow of spiritual Israel. Am I correct? If so, then you are indeed a believer in RT.

No, you are not correct. Spiritual Israel is spiritual Israel and physical Israel is physical Israel. Yes, God worked through physical Israel and revealed Himself originally through physical Israel and brought salvation to the world by way of becoming a man in Israel and sacrificing Himself for the sins of the world. So, my view is NOT that physical Israel is of no real value. What I believe is that spiritual Israel is a separate entity from physical Israel and it is comprised of all of the children of God who are the children of the promise, which are those who belong to Christ (Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 3:16-29).

You don't at all *replace* physical Israel with spiritual Israel. But for those of us who believe that physical Israel will become the true spiritual Israel, you do replace my sense of Israel's national destiny with the destiny of the international Church.

So, call that something else then. You don't need to try to redefine a term that was already taken. It just causes confusion.

By the way, what does it even mean for physical Israel to become the true spiritual Israel? Do you not believe there is currently a true spiritual Israel? The concept is clearly taught in Romans 9:6-8. Spiritual Israel is clearly contrasted with physical Israel there.

 

[marks]

I am showing you the inconsistency and folly of the Premil logic. It doesn't add up or make sense. Premils make it up as they go. It is like the mark of the beast, they are so insistent on it being hyper-literal yet when it comes to the mark of God, which is mentioned more times in Revelation, they suddenly and effortlessly apply a spiritual meaning to that. It is double-standards. But that is Premil. Look at the climactic detail of 2 Peter 3 or Revelation 19. Literal rules of interpretation are thrown out the window here in order to facilitate Premil.

And about the "one hour", any comments? Seriously. You brought this up, I responded, are you now just going to breeze past it?

Premils make it up as they go.

Or are we just going to be back to pejorative nonsense?

I've been studying this for years, and I only say that to say, I'm not just making this all up on the spot. Why do you say such things?

This is not coming across as a serious discussion.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have no interest in perpetuating our disagreement--I only wish you to understand my position.

I do. And I disagree with it. Don't act as if I'd agree with you if only I understood your position (not saying you are, but I hope you're not thinking that way).

I agree with Paul that Christ is the sole basis for the fulfillment of *all* of the promises God has made. Some of those promises were made exclusively to Israel.

Such as?

Some promises, by extension, apply to the international Church, as well.

How do you determine which promises are for whom? Paul did not at all indicate that some promises were for Israel and some for the church. You seem to be adding something to this that Paul never taught.

Let me put it like this. All of us who are true Christians receive the same benefit from Christ. But Christ offers some gifts to individuals that others of us don't receive. In effect we receive their gifts when we receive them.

The same is true of Israel. It is just one of many nations called to be a godly nation.

This calling of nations thing is just not biblical. God calls ALL individual people to be godly.

But they have their own unique calling and their own special gifts. If the rest of the Church is going to benefit from them, we will have to accept them when they, as a people, finally accept Christ.

This concept of them corporately accepting Christ is not taught anywhere in scripture. You act as if none of them have accepted Christ the past almost 2,000 years. But, a good number of them have! Including 3,000 on the day of Pentecost alone (Acts 2:41). So, I find this idea of them "finally" accepting Christ in the future to be ridiculous. For what reason do you think they would all accept Him in the future? Because God makes them do so? Is that how salvation works? Absolutely not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well there is some loaded language!

I just said I believe what it says.

Are you thinking that every time a number is used in the Bible that it is figurative?

Were you serious with this question? That is clearly not what he was saying. He's just trying to get you to recognize that numbers are often used figuratively in the Bible. Not every time, of course. Not even most of the time. But, sometimes they are. Some people act like numbers are rarely, if ever, used figuratively in scripture, but that is not true.

Revelation 17:9-13 KJV
9) And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10) And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12) And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

This is a prophetic narrative, and gives a very plausable sequence of events. The ten kings, having no kingdom yet, will receive power as kings for one hour, and for one hour they shall share power with the beast. Then, in unanimous agreement, they shall give their power to the beast. From that fact we can conclude that they will no longer be sharing power with the beast, having conceded their power to the beast, and therefore not having it any longer.

Is there some particular reason that you think that would not transpire within the space of 60 minutes?

That would be quite a short reign for the ten kings. Only 60 minutes? How could that be? That makes no sense. What would they even be able to do in only 60 minutes?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The NT deals with Salvation, and excludes any corrupt human basis for obtaining this. Artificial distinctions like race and nationality are excluded from the mix. Christ is the sole basis for salvation for any nation or ethnicity.

So while the NT focuses on salvation going from the Jews to the Gentile nations we have to remember that other facts were already well-established, were common sense, and did not need reiteration. The distinction between nations did not need mentioning, although it is mentioned. The continuing validity of Israel as a nation of hope is not excluded either, even though they are, as a society, set on a shelf for a long while.

What does that mean for them to be set on a shelf as a society? Where does scripture teach that?

To say the Bible does not express a distinction between nations is false.[/quote]When did I say that? But, what exactly is this distinction between nations that you're talking about?

NT theology does not, contrary to opinion, contradict the idea of many nations and the exclusivity of the Israeli nation. When the Bible speaks of these artificial distinctions it is only talking about the exclusive basis of salvation being in Christ, and not in these distinctions belonging to fallible human beings.

I just don't know what you're talking about. You're far too vague. Again, what are these distinctions among nations that you're talking about?

 

[Truth7t7]

The disbelief in God's divine continuance of Isreal as a nation has resulted in so much confusion, in replacement theology and it's spin offs, and in communicating the idea that you can't just accept what you read, Oh No, Israel is Gone, don't you see??? Now Israel is back, but the disbelief remains.

Marks its you who won't accept what is before your eyes, simple, clear, easy to understand

Jesus is the originator of your proclaimed "Replacement Theology"

He took the Kingdom and replaced Israel with the Holy Nation of the Church

Jesus Is The Lord

Matthew 21:42-43KJV
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The Church, An Holy Nation!

2 Peter 2:9KJV
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[marks]

Were you serious with this question? That is clearly not what he was saying. He's just trying to get you to recognize that numbers are often used figuratively in the Bible. Not every time, of course. Not even most of the time. But, sometimes it is. Some people act like numbers are rarely, if ever, used figuratively in scripture, but that is not true.

Actually, I had hoped to elicit this sort of response. An even-handed approach to numbers in the Bible.

BTW, I'm not ignoring your other post to me, just thinking about how to respond, it seems to veer more into hermenuetics, but then, that's where we've been I guess!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Marks its you who won't accept what is before your eyes, simple, clear, easy to understand

Thank you for sharing your personal opinion that I am intellectually dishonest. Am I now supposed to offer a personal defense?

I think I'll ask you the same question I recently asked someone else. Why do you say such things?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

6 times God says "a thousand years" and "the thousand years". How many were you hoping for?

LOL. The number of times the thousand years is referenced is not corroboration of your interpretation. Do you not know what corroboration means? He was talking about other scripture besides Revelation 20 that corroborates (supports) your interpretation of Revelation 20. We amils don't believe there is any scripture which corroborates the premil interpretation of Revelation 20.