22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Taken]

22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine OP^
@Paul Malcomson

Hi Paul.
Read your past belief, and your reasons listed ... and ya, IF I was being fed those reasons, I would probably also abandoned that belief.

A choice to believe what others teach, rests on the individual Themselves to verify in Scripture.

Understanding Pre-Tribulation, does not land on 1 or 2 Scriptures.
It’s a study.
It’s no one’s obligation to read or study or understand for you, yet you were making clear that was your expectation, for others to corroborate to satisfy you.

I do believe in Pre-Tribulation Removal of those IN Christ, expressly Because they ARE “IN” Christ. They have already FULFILLED, exactly what the Lord God required, FOR them to be excepted/escaped
FROM, Gods Great Tribulation and Wrath, THAT He HAS forewarned and promised to send down from Heaven UPON the earth inhabitants.

If you have NOT already FULFILLED, exactly what the Lord God requires, well then sure, (if you be physically living on the unknown day God shall Begin His Great Tribulations)....you WILL get to remain on the face of the earth, and along with others, experience Great Tribulations, Wrath’s, and hopefully DURING those days, you will Accomplish, and fulfill exactly what the Lord God requires, to BECOME saved.
(There WILL be MANY BELIEVERS, unbelievers, who elect that route.)

It doesn’t make anyone MORE, whole or holy, to hang out on the face of the earth, and step up to a head chopping death, rather than a crucified with Jesus death.

The difference is ONE DEATH is VISIBLE for any man to see...
ONE DEATH is NOT VISIBLE for any man to see.

Remember how angry God was in the OT, over men who could not believe, commit, BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT SEE GOD?
They could not BELIEVE, trust, commit, WITHOUT something to SEE?

It’s a similar situation.
I’ve already given my life, unto death, crucified with Christ Jesus.
You will have to (if Alive at that time), have to see men being physically killed, even yourself, that that be sure enough to convince your eyes, and surely that will be SEEN by God, and THEN He also will be Convinced, you are worthy to become Saved?

Nothing new today, as in the OT...some men HAVE to SEE to believe, SEE to trust. Remember Thomas? Doubting? He had to SEE to believe, SEE to Trust.

IF your hope is to (live long enough), to be on this earth, WHEN God sends His Tribulations and Wrath down upon the inhabitants upon the face of the earth, WILL you KNOW, WHY God is ANGRY? Angry at YOU?

Do you KNOW, what happened for thousands of years TO ISRAEL, Gods people, Every time God was Angry with them, and WHY God was Angry?
The WHY was for disobedience. The WHAT was punishments.

Gods Tribulations and Wrath’s He shall send down from Heaven upon the inhabitants upon the face of the earth...ARE EXPRESSLY “punishments”...every seal, every trump, every vial...is “punishments’.

Why will God KEEP you on the face of the Earth...and want to “punish” you? Do you know?

Gods Divine Punishments are for Rebellion, Unbelief, Immorality...
IF you are ON the face of the earth, During God sending down His Tribulations of punishments....you should ... not take my word, but at least study that and LEARN WHY for yourself.

 

[farouk]

22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine OP^
@Paul Malcomson

Hi Paul.
Read your past belief, and your reasons listed ... and ya, IF I was being fed those reasons, I would probably also abandoned that belief.

A choice to believe what others teach, rests on the individual Themselves to verify in Scripture.

Understanding Pre-Tribulation, does not land on 1 or 2 Scriptures.
It’s a study.
It’s no one’s obligation to read or study or understand for you, yet you were making clear that was your expectation, for others to corroborate to satisfy you.

I do believe in Pre-Tribulation Removal of those IN Christ, expressly Because they ARE “IN” Christ. They have already FULFILLED, exactly what the Lord God required, FOR them to be excepted/escaped
FROM, Gods Great Tribulation and Wrath, THAT He HAS forewarned and promised to send down from Heaven UPON the earth inhabitants.

If you have NOT already FULFILLED, exactly what the Lord God requires, well then sure, (if you be physically living on the unknown day God shall Begin His Great Tribulations)....you WILL get to remain on the face of the earth, and along with others, experience Great Tribulations, Wrath’s, and hopefully DURING those days, you will Accomplish, and fulfill exactly what the Lord God requires, to BECOME saved.
(There WILL be MANY BELIEVERS, unbelievers, who elect that route.)

It doesn’t make anyone MORE, whole or holy, to hang out on the face of the earth, and step up to a head chopping death, rather than a crucified with Jesus death.

The difference is ONE DEATH is VISIBLE for any man to see...
ONE DEATH is NOT VISIBLE for any man to see.

Remember how angry God was in the OT, over men who could not believe, commit, BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT SEE GOD?
They could not BELIEVE, trust, commit, WITHOUT something to SEE?

It’s a similar situation.
I’ve already given my life, unto death, crucified with Christ Jesus.
You will have to (if Alive at that time), have to see men being physically killed, even yourself, that that be sure enough to convince your eyes, and surely that will be SEEN by God, and THEN He also will be Convinced, you are worthy to become Saved?

Nothing new today, as in the OT...some men HAVE to SEE to believe, SEE to trust. Remember Thomas? Doubting? He had to SEE to believe, SEE to Trust.

IF your hope is to (live long enough), to be on this earth, WHEN God sends His Tribulations and Wrath down upon the inhabitants upon the face of the earth, WILL you KNOW, WHY God is ANGRY? Angry at YOU?

Do you KNOW, what happened for thousands of years TO ISRAEL, Gods people, Every time God was Angry with them, and WHY God was Angry?
The WHY was for disobedience. The WHAT was punishments.

Gods Tribulations and Wrath’s He shall send down from Heaven upon the inhabitants upon the face of the earth...ARE EXPRESSLY “punishments”...every seal, every trump, every vial...is “punishments’.

Why will God KEEP you on the face of the Earth...and want to “punish” you? Do you know?

Gods Divine Punishments are for Rebellion, Unbelief, Immorality...
IF you are ON the face of the earth, During God sending down His Tribulations of punishments....you should ... not take my word, but at least study that and LEARN WHY for yourself.

@Taken I think it helps if ppl remember the Who? aspect as well as the What? aspect of the Rapture.

1 Corinthians 11.26 shows who is linked with the Rapture: it is the coming of the Lord Jesus for the church.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes the time was at hand then not some 2000 years later

Marty you desire to erase the context of scripture, "Why"?

You have been clearly shown "Several Times" and yet you continue to teach preterist error, as if the book of Revelation has been fulfilled suggesting no future events are seen "Wrong"!

Once again, the things which are, and the things which shall be "hereafter"

Revelation 1:19
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

[Marty fox]

Marty you desire to erase the context of scripture, "Why"?

You have been clearly shown "Several Times" and yet you continue to teach preterist error, as if the book of Revelation has been fulfilled suggesting no future events are seen "Wrong"!

Once again, the things which are, and the things which shall be "hereafter"

Revelation 1:19
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

You are mistaken I do not believe that all the the events in revelation have been fulfilled I have never claimed that.

 

[Taken]

@Taken I think it helps if ppl remember the Who? aspect as well as the What? aspect of the Rapture.

1 Corinthians 11.26 shows who is linked with the Rapture: it is the coming of the Lord Jesus for the church.

 

[Taken]

@Taken I think it helps if ppl remember the Who? aspect as well as the What? aspect of the Rapture.

1 Corinthians 11.26 shows who is linked with the Rapture: it is the coming of the Lord Jesus for the church.

Of course. However, some deniers are so busy denying, they don’t spend much time testifying their belief. Don’t always know who that does and does not apply to.

 

[WPM]

So let's list all the FALLACIES stated in this sentence:

1. ONE LONE CHAPTER: Genesis 1 is also one lone chapter, and the whole Bible stands or falls on that one lone chapter.

2. HIGHLY DEBATED: Only by Amillennialists because they are opposing plain Scripture. They hate the idea of a literal Millennial reign of Christ (which Satan also hates).

3. MOST FIGURATIVE: How in the world can "one thousand years" (Gk chilia ete) be seen as anything other than 1,000 years (which is called a "Millennium" from the Latin "milli" for 1,000).

4. OBSCURE BOOK: If indeed it was an obscure book it could not possibly have this blessing: Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Rev 1:3)

So you really do not have a leg to stand on. And hopefully no one will be swayed by your nonsense.

Obviously, you have no rebuttal. There is much supporting Scripture that speaks of creation, the beginning and our first parents. The fact you are unaware of this may explain why you miss the thrust of what i am saying. The fact is: you have zero corroboration. Premil is a non-supported theory.

 

[Truth7t7]

Exactally I’m not disputing what the scriptures say I’m disputing what the mark is. If it’s a literal mark then it contradicts John 3:16 thus it’s not a literal mark.

Smiles!

A future literal mark of the beast doesn't contradict scripture as you claim, it's your preterist "opinion" that's wrong

 

[Truth7t7]

You are mistaken I do not believe that all the the events in revelation have been fulfilled I have never claimed that.

My Apology

Do you believe the future second coming is found anyplace in the book of Revelation?

 

[marks]

Exactally I’m not disputing what the scriptures say I’m disputing what the mark is. If it’s a literal mark then it contradicts John 3:16 thus it’s not a literal mark.

How so?

Because they cannot be saved after receiving it?

Much love!

 

[Marty fox]

Smiles!

A future literal mark of the beast doesn't contradict scripture as you claim, it's your preterist "opinion" that's wrong

Yes it does if you can’t repent from it it would contradict all of the scriptures below.

Romans 10:13
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

1John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[marks]

(19) Premil has an unhealthy obsessive focus on natural Israel, wrongly believing her to be God’s chosen people today under the new covenant. As a result, they have a mistaken fixation with natural Jerusalem in the Middle East, as if it is the epicenter of God’s workings with mankind on this earth and the place of His unconditional favor. This is wrong! They ignore much Scripture that shows that the fig tree has been cut down, the kingdom of God has been removed from Israel. Ancient Jerusalem and the temple therein were merely Old Testament imperfect shadows of the heavenly reality that was revealed at the first advent. The New Testament repeatedly teaches that we have become one with spiritual believing Israel in the OT. It makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one new man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time!

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Much love!

 

[Marty fox]

My Apology

Do you believe the future second coming is found anyplace in the book of Revelation?

Yes in revelation 20:9 it’s the same time as 2 Peter 3:10 the day of the Lord.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

(19) Premil has an unhealthy obsessive focus on natural Israel, wrongly believing her to be God’s chosen people today under the new covenant. As a result, they have a mistaken fixation with natural Jerusalem in the Middle East, as if it is the epicenter of God’s workings with mankind on this earth and the place of His unconditional favor. This is wrong! They ignore much Scripture that shows that the fig tree has been cut down, the kingdom of God has been removed from Israel. Ancient Jerusalem and the temple therein were merely Old Testament imperfect shadows of the heavenly reality that was revealed at the first advent. The New Testament repeatedly teaches that we have become one with spiritual believing Israel in the OT. It makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one new man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time!

(20) General unqualified phrases like “all,” “all nations,” “the quick (or living) and the dead,” “every man,” “every eye,” “every one,” “men,” “man,” “all men everywhere,” “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great,” “all that dwell upon the earth … whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ,” “they that dwell on the earth … whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,” “the world,” “the whole world” and “all the world,” that objective and impartial Bible students acknowledge embrace the whole human race (or the full amount of all the wicked) are redefined and explained away to let Premil fit. If one was to take a precise straightforward interpretation of these phrases, one could only come to conclusion that there are no exclusions here. This shows that the Premil boast that they are literalists is inaccurate.

(21) Premil takes common linguistic terms that are easily understood by the unindoctrinated observer in any language to mean the opposite to what they actually say. For example, Premil does not believe that "first" means first and "last" means last. The English words “first” and “last” are taken from the Greek words protos and eschatos and are widely accepted by all unbiased theologians to denote exactly what they say. The word protos means first, as in the foremost in time, place, order or importance. The word eschatos on the other hand means end, last, farthest and final. It is explicitly clear from their usage, meaning and context in the New Testament that these words are the exact antithesis of each other.

(22) Premil does not believe that “the end” refers to the end. The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing. When Scripture simply talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then most sane theologians agree it is talking about “the beginning” of creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason I believe is because it cuts across a lot of their end-time theology they have been taught. But I believe we should treat both sayings similarly. Unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).

Hogwash -- all of it!
Within a year you will retract all your words and flush them.
We are likely IN the Great Tribulation Period. The pestilence, wars and famine soon to overtake billions of people will have you scratching your empty heads.
This is where the rubber meets the road ... the death toll.
If you read Rev. 6, describing the Riders of the FOUR HORSES, the accumulative death from these alone account for about 2 billion people. Nothing in history has ever caused 25% loss of life in a few years time. The Black Plague came close to killing 20% of the planet in the 14th century (estimates are uncertain). Even all the wars in the 20th century account for maybe
2 % death.
That is the GT just getting started. Then you have the events in the rest of the Seals, the Seven Trumpets and the the wrath of God in the Seven Bowls before it is complete. The world will experience a worldwide earthquake, 1/3 of the planet literally on fire (likely the Middle East), super-volcanic eruptions causing massives tsunamis, nuclear war, etc. So after all that you can add another couple billion deaths.
60 million people die on average on earth annually. So when you see billions die - then you will know that this is not normal. Capisce?
Then if that is not enough to convince you, when "every eye sees Him" coming in the clouds, you will be ashamed of yourself for not only being in denial of His Second Coming, but that you spent years trying to lead others down the wrong path.

 

[Marty fox]

How so?

Because they cannot be saved after receiving it?

Much love!

Yes

 

[Timtofly]

Yes it does if you can’t repent from it it would contradict all of the scriptures below.

If a person never repents, according to you that negates the verse also. Your logic demands universalism, that all will eventually repent.


Obviously many in sheol did not repent, and that does not change those verses at all.

Up until they receive the mark, they can repent. This 42 month period is literally reverse of today's confession of faith and repentance. Chopping one's head off is the act of faith. Taking the mark immediately removes one's name from the Lamb's book of life. Those verses only apply to those still named in the Lamb's book of life. When God removes a name, that is passing judgment on that person, and salvation no longer applies.

Your logic would point out that even those in the LOF negates John 3:16. Obviously they cannot repent, can they? A person without a head cannot repent either. They are dead. The act of chopping of their head was an act of repentance. The last act, they can do as a sinner. Taking the mark is also the last act they can do. They cannot repent after that point. They are the living dead. They just are not in the LOF, yet.

 

[marks]

Yes

Aren't there other places in the Bible where people's opportunity to be saved was ended? Like Romans 1? Or 2 Thessalonians 2? And doesn't death itself end the opportunity for all unsaved?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes it does if you can’t repent from it it would contradict all of the scriptures below.

Romans 10:13
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

1John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Taking the mark means you've made your choice. And everyone will be forced to finally choose.

Much love!

 

[Marty fox]

If a person never repents, according to you that negates the verse also. Your logic demands universalism, that all will eventually repent.


Obviously many in sheol did not repent, and that does not change those verses at all.

Up until they receive the mark, they can repent. This 42 month period is literally reverse of today's confession of faith and repentance. Chopping one's head off is the act of faith. Taking the mark immediately removes one's name from the Lamb's book of life. Those verses only apply to those still named in the Lamb's book of life. When God removes a name, that is passing judgment on that person, and salvation no longer applies.

Your logic would point out that even those in the LOF negates John 3:16. Obviously they cannot repent, can they? A person without a head cannot repent either. They are dead. The act of chopping of their head was an act of repentance. The last act, they can do as a sinner. Taking the mark is also the last act they can do. They cannot repent after that point. They are the living dead. They just are not in the LOF, yet.

No it only applies if they are alive that’s why it’s an act of faith. We confess in faith that God will save us thus we are saved by grace through faith.

The question isn’t will they repent or not it’s can they repent. The issue is what the mark is it’s something that doesn’t contradict scripture.

 

[Marty fox]

Aren't there other places in the Bible where people's opportunity to be saved was ended? Like Romans 1? Or 2 Thessalonians 2? And doesn't death itself end the opportunity for all unsaved?

Much love!

Yes it only applies while we are alive it’s an act of faith thus we are saved by grace through faith.

The only unforgivable sin is the constant rejection of the Holy Spirit. The mark is an unrepentant devotion to the beast (the mark on the head) and proving it by doing the beast will (the mark on the right hand). It’s the only thing that doesn’t contradict scripture.