I don't understand your question here. Full of sin and sinners? Satan and demons? Whatever you've learned to be Jesus' 1000 year kingdom, it's not what I know from the Bible.
Sinners will die. Satan will be bound.
Much love!
22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine
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I don't understand your question here. Full of sin and sinners? Satan and demons? Whatever you've learned to be Jesus' 1000 year kingdom, it's not what I know from the Bible.
Sinners will die. Satan will be bound.
Much love!
This is hilarious and we do not need a long dissertation either. If "one (or a) thousand years" is repeated SEVEN TIMES within six verses, one has to be utterly stupid to conclude that there is no Millennium in the future.
2/3 and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled
4/5 and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
6/7 and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired,
Three times John wrote of a thousand years, and when those thousand years are fulfilled/finished/expired.
How much do we need?
Much love!
Premils have a lovely way with words - "Hogwash!," "Balderdash! or "more hot air!"" are the best that we can glean. This is obviously a smokescreen to conceal the fact that you have no corroborative Scripture.
Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?
Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?
Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?
Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?
Could any Premil please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?
Where does Zechariah 14 make the remotest allusion to any of the detail described at the end of Revelation 20 and therefore the millennium, including the gathering of Gog and Magog to fight the camp of the saints, the destruction of the wicked in total, the destruction of the old earth and heavens and the replacement with the new, the resurrection of the wicked and “Great White Throne Judgement of sinners” 1,000 years after the judgement of the righteous?
Surely the Jerusalem Premils portray in their alleged future millennium is altogether different to the one depicted in Zechariah 14:2 that is being attacked, “the houses rifled,” and “the women ravished”?
How can women in the millennium be "ravished" (or raped) when no one in Jerusalem is even mortal anymore (Zechariah 14:2)?
Zechariah 14:2-3, tells us that the result of the attack of the nations against Jerusalem is that “half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.” Surely this contradicts the whole Premillennial portrayal of Jerusalem during the millennium? This surely runs contrary to the perfect pristine peaceful Jerusalem Premils like to present in their literature, where Israel is exalted to a racially privileged position for 1,000 years?
How then can Jerusalem prosper when half of its population are dead and the other half are prisoners restrained by chains? I thought this was a glorious time for the city?
How can Premils reconcile their conflicting “proof-texts” that in one breath teach that “every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles" (Zechariah 14:16-17) and “the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD” (Isaiah 56:6-7) yet in the next breath at the exact same time because Jerusalem is a "holy" place, a prohibition is placed on all Gentiles that "there shall no strangers pass through her any more" (Joel 3:17) and “No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel” (Ezekiel 44:9)?
If Zechariah 14 and Joel 3 relate to the second coming (as Premils argue) then we have another contradiction: how can we have Egypt still existing in Zechariah 14:17-19 when Joel 3 clearly demonstrates that “Egypt shall be a desolation” (v19)? How does Premil magically raise this rebellious nation?
And what is your point?
· Do you believe time continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe crying and dying continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe decay and disease continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe war and terror continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe Satan and his minions populate the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe mortals continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe the unregenerate continue on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
· Do you believe the bondage of corruption continues on the earth after the second coming? Yes or no?
Really?
Zechariah 14:1-4 KJV
1) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Again, context (sequence) is king!
Much love!
The burden of proof is actually with you. What other Scripture do you believe teaches a literal future thousand years after the second coming followed by Satan's little season where time, crying and dying, decay and disease, war and terror, Satan and his minions, mortals, the unregenerate and the bondage of corruption continues unabated?
Revelation is full of 7 recaps. In my opinion, Revelation 17-19 is the 6th of 7 parallels. It is a record of God's dealing with Babylon. It culminates with the climatic coming of Christ. The wicked are all destroyed in that recapitulation, this agrees with every other Second coming passage. It is the end.
Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
A plain reading of the passage before us reveals that Christ is coming back with wrath to execute judgment and destroy all those left behind. He is not going to reward men for their rebellion by leading them unto the glorified new earth. Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text. The King of kings and Lord of lords will not have to fight for victory. He already won that decisively at the cross.
Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.
Let us be clear: Heis coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.
The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.
Verses 17-18 continues, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”
Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?
The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:
1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.
The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.
The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ will be a unique day in the annals of human history and unprecedented in its all-consummating character. Obviously, no other day has ever seen the end of the world and the final complete defeat of every last enemy of righteousness, truth and Almighty God. Neither has any other day seen the destruction of all wickedness by way of fire before. Notwithstanding, the Lord draws our specific attention to two notable days in human history to compare it with, and to fully illustrate the character and finality of this all-consummating day. These two particular days are familiar to most and are found in Holy Writ (both in the Old Testament), and give us an unparalleled insight into the nature, extent and detail of judgment on that impending last day. While, evidently there is no previous individual bygone historic example of a total global annihilation of the wicked by fire, these two individual days, when joined together, vividly portray what will occur on the final day of time. These two former days being (1) the day that Noah entered into the ark and (2) the day that Lot was rescued out of Sodom.
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No, you avoided my points.
You did not address my point about others Scripture negating to mention this supposed future 1000 years. Again, you interprtet Rev 20 by your opinion of Rev 20.That is horrible hermeneutics.
My point is (once again) unaddressed. I will repeat. Premil is always explaining away the clear and explicit New Testament Scripture (the fuller revelation) by the shadow, type and vaguer Old Testament. It uses indistinct or misunderstood Old Testament Scripture to negate and reject clear and explicit New Testament Scripture that teaches otherwise. We Christians have the benefit of the New Testament to explain what is difficult or obscure in the Old Testament. Christ has superseded the old covenant arrangement and now fulfils the new covenant arrangement as predicted. The New Testament is the greater revelation.
Revelation is a highly symbolic setting which you force a literal meaning upon.
- Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
- Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
- Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
- Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
- Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
- Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
- Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
- Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
- Does imprisonment mean immobility?
- Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
- Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
- Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
- Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?
You haven't even addressed these. Obviously you have nothing.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You cannot prove Amillennialism from Bible Scripture. God's written Word shows there WILL be a reign by Christ and His over the 'wicked' right after His future coming. Amillenialism instead wrongly teaches that all the wicked are destroyed... on the day of Christ's future coming.
So all I NEED DO is prove by Bible Scripture, that the WICKED still exist AFTER Christ's future return. Easy!...
Rev 3:8-9
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV
Those of the "synagogue of Satan" represent the greatest enemies of Christ and His Church here on earth. To this day they have NEVER bowed the knee before the feet of Christ's elect. Thus we KNOW Jesus meant that for AFTER His future return. Easy! The wicked are STILL there AFTER Christ's future return!
Rev 22:12-15
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV
That phrase, "For without are..." is a continuation of the subject of the 14th verse about entering into the gates of the city, and having right to the tree of life. That means... that is pointing to THE TIME AFTER CHRIST'S FUTURE RETURN with Christ's elect that reign with Him having right to that tree of life and being INSIDE the gates of the holy city... WHILE... those in verse 15 are OUTSIDE THE GATES! This is CORROBORATED with the Ezekiel 44 events about the "dead" (spiritual dead) that are outside the gates of the holy city in that future time. It is also CORROBORATED in Revelation 20 about the "camp of the saints" ON EARTH, which is where Christ's elect will reign with Jesus from over the nations with the promised "rod of iron" of Psalms 2 and Revelation 2, and Revelation 19:15.
After Zechariah 14 speaks of Christ's future return with Christ bringing all the saints with Him there upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, the Scripture also speaks of the River of the waters of life in verse 8, and only ONE LORD over the whole earth in verse 9. And then this... further down...
Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV
Every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem?? What's that about? That is about the Revelation 16 event of God gathering the nations to battle on the last day when the 7th Vial is poured out upon them. Those in verse 16 are the leftovers of those nations that came up against Jerusalem on that last day of this present world! Look what they do AFTER Jesus' future return here! They will go up from year to year to worship The KING, and keep the feast of tabernacles!!!
Does that look like those are destroyed on the day of Christ's future return like men's false Amillennial doctrines says? Of course not. This is SO... EASY! All one need do is stay in God's Word as written.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So, what other scriptures can you reference which you think support your interpretation of Revelation 20? Can you honestly say that your interpretation of those other passages isn't based on your interpretation of Revelation 20? Is Revelation 20 not the main passage you use to support your Premil doctrine?
You have an obvious difficulty with addressing simple direct questions. I refer you back to the avoided enquiries.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Been down this road many times, rather than spending lots of time, I'll let a scholar argue the theology for me:
Amillennialism critiqued – LifeCoach4God
OK, that let's me know a lot about how you read the Bible. Obviously we won't reach an agreement here, because of our very different hermaneutics. I don't see much point kicking a dead horse.
Much love!
You have a lovely Christian attitude. Do you talk to Christians in real life like this?
The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalm 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”
But that passage does not say that. You force that into the sacred text. This is a classic case of Premil eisegesis.
But this is after the millennium. Hello! The wicked and all wickedness are now obliterated.
I have already asked you several questions in regard to Zechariah 14 that expose the Premil position, but you have ducked around them.
Could any you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?
I am not interested in outside links and unresponsive pages that also refuse to address the literal reading of Scripture. I will take this as an example that you have no rebuttals to this thread.
Thanks for the conversation.
I used to be a Premil. I know they are not there. I have spent 22 years on similar sites watching Premils duck around these simple issues.
Davy
Well-Known Member
A true Christian believes God's Word as written. You need to repent to Jesus and ask Him forgiveness for denying His Word.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That is exactly what is taught in passages like these:
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
Before this passage Peter had been talking about how scoffers scoff at the idea of Christ's second coming by asking "where is the promise of His coming?" and he points out their ignorance about God creating the world and covering the world with the flood waters in Noah's day. Then he pointed out in verse 7 how He similarly will destroy the heavens and earth in the future only this time with fire. After that Peter points out how the Lord is not being slow to fulfill the promise of His coming like some people think and then he went on to give more details about what he said in verse 7. All of that is in relation to the promise of His second coming. And so is 2 Peter 3:10-13. The context is clear and indicates that Peter is talking about the day of Christ's return which will come as a thief in the night, just as other scripture indicates. And it will bring about global destruction. That is why Peter said in verse 13 that we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in keeping with the promise of His second coming. That means the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in at His second coming, not 1000+ years later. There will be no wicked survivors of His second coming. Why would any of them be allowed to survive? What would be the difference between them and those who don't survive?
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
This passage, which even you can recognize is referring to the day Christ returns, indicates that "all people, free and slave, great and small" will be destroyed on the day He returns. Of course, the context is in relation to the wicked. Where does this allow for any mortal survivors?
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
This passage lines up perfectly with what Peter taught in 2nd Peter 3. Jesus indicated that heaven and earth will pass away but no one knows the day or hour it will happen. That lines up with the day of the Lord coming unexpectedly like a thief in the night. And Jesus relates that day of heaven and earth passing away with His second coming, just as Peter did in 2nd Peter 3. He said regarding the wicked in Noah's day, just as "the flood came and took them all away, that is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". It couldn't be more clear. He was saying that none of the wicked will survive His coming just as none of the wicked survived the flood in Noah's day.
2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
In this passage Paul indicates that Jesus will destroy and punish all "who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus". That describes all unbelievers, so once again we see scripture teaching that there will be no mortal survivors of Christ's return. You foolishly deny all of these scriptures in favor of an erroneous interpretation of Zechariah 14. You also foolishly don't understand that the New Testament shines light on the Old Testament and not the other way around. Apart from a literal, chronological interpretation of Revelation 19 & 20, the New Testament doesn't even remotely hint at such a things as a thousand year earthly kingdom after the return of Christ.
Are you staying in God's Word as written in the passages I referenced above? Absolutely not. You are interpreting Zechariah 14 in such a way that contradicts many other scripture passages. But, I guess you don't care about that.
Yeah, I've been down this road a lot also. Unknot all this, and for what?
Better to discuss hermaneutics, and logical fallacies, and Miss Manners, at least initially.
Much love!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You deny His word by acting like a complete jerk and by treating others horribly and judging them instead of loving others even if they disagree with you as Jesus wants you to do. So, you are the one who needs to repent.
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