22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Spiritual Israelite

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I'll re-phrase:
Not caring about the Nicene Creed disqualifies you from making any determinations about Christianity, Protestant or Catholic.
That is absolutely false and one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen. I care about scripture. Don't tell me that I need to care about anything else. Your opinion about that means nothing.

The Nicene Creed is not intended to interpret scripture, it's a statement of faith of the early church that predates the full canonization of the Bible by 50+ years. But you don't care what the early church believed because they didn't have Bibles and you do.
View attachment 32930

I've presented to you at least twice our official teachings of the last 100 years or so, and not once have you pointed out which ones are false. Here it is again:
Your empty anti-Catholic slogans are boring. Covering up what the reformers taught about Mary is not obvious to everybody, but it is to me. It's fad theology, since no Protestant church on the planet before the 18th century taught that Mary was a sinner or that she had other children. Those are diabolical New Age traditions of men, feeding other false caricatures of Catholic teaching.
You are boring. Let's make that clear. Also, I could not care less what false teachers have taught about Mary over the years. I am not obligated to go along with what they taught. You have fallen for their lies. Scripture teaches that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Mary herself understood that. If she was sinless she could have died for our sins instead of Jesus. That is just one of many ridiculous, unbiblical beliefs that you have.
 
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amigo de christo

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I wonder why Mary became so disturbed and agitated at Gabriels salutation to her in Lk 1...,

26 Now in the sixth month [of Elizabeth’s pregnancy] the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, a descendant of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And coming to her, the angel said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.” 29 But she was greatly perplexed at what he said, and kept carefully considering what kind of greeting this was.


If she was sinless, she wouldn't have reacted that way.

Something appears to be on her conscience.
Just a friendly reminder to all . never follow the RCC , nor calvin either .
And let all that as breath both praise and thank the LORD .
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I wonder why Mary became so disturbed and agitated at Gabriels salutation to her in Lk 1...,

26 Now in the sixth month [of Elizabeth’s pregnancy] the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, a descendant of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And coming to her, the angel said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.” 29 But she was greatly perplexed at what he said, and kept carefully considering what kind of greeting this was.


If she was sinless, she wouldn't have reacted that way.

Something appears to be on her conscience.
Agree. This is obvious to those of us who actually have discernment. If she was sinless she would have responded by saying something like "Yes, I am the favored one, aren't I? With me being sinless and all. Don't you feel privileged to be in my presence? So, what do you need? Make it quick because my time is important.".
 

BreadOfLife

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I wonder why Mary became so disturbed and agitated at Gabriels salutation to her in Lk 1...,

26 Now in the sixth month [of Elizabeth’s pregnancy] the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, a descendant of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And coming to her, the angel said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.” 29 But she was greatly perplexed at what he said, and kept carefully considering what kind of greeting this was.

If she was sinless, she wouldn't have reacted that way.

Something appears to be on her conscience.
Why wouldn't she be perplexed??
The Angel greeted her with a phrase that mystified her.

He didn't merely call hger "favored one" or "highly favored". The Greek word used here in Luke 1:28 is Kecharitomene. Since Mary spoke Aramaic - there is no single word for this.

Kecharitomene translates as "completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace", that indicates a completed action with a permanent result.”
This word is not uses ANYWHERE else in Scripture.

HOW does this make her not sinless?
 

BreadOfLife

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No, I did not. Stop lying. You can share your beliefs all you want, but when you resort to lies like this then you just need to step back, stop posting and repent of your lying.
This, coming from the KING of LIARS . . .

Anyway - I didn't lie. Since Protestant are voluntarily outside the Church - YOU just condemned them all. I
didn't . . .
 

PinSeeker

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Augustine wasn’t a Calvinist.
Well he couldn't have been, given that Calvin came centuries after Augustine. But the fact is that Augustine and Calvin were very, very close in their understandings of Scripture.
During his long journey of faith, some of his early writings depict some “Calvinist” tendencies. However, the sum of his work is ultimately Catholic – and solidly-Catholic.
Well, I would put it thusly, that Catholicism had its roots in Augustine's writings and teachings, as well as Jerome (who I've mentioned positively already), Ambrose, and Gregory.

Yes, Catholics and Calvinists have MANT things in common – but there are some of Calvin’s inventions that cannot be reckoned by Scripture or Transition. Namely, his TULIP theology.
That's... what Catholics will say, certainly. :) But... :) I'll just say that "TULIP" only came about as a response to Jacobus Arminius's five assertions. Characterizing Calvin's responses as "inventions" is really quite the opposite of what they are. And, as I have said, the disagreement between Augustine and Pelagius (in order) around the turn of the fifth century was essentially the same as that between Calvin and Arminius (also in order). Augustine and Calvin were on the same page; Calvin's writings and teachings are very, very similar to Augustine's. John Calvin himself wrote, "Augustine is so wholly within me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings." Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion (which I'm looking at on my bookshelf at this very moment... :) ~ quotes Augustine directly in a fourth of this work.

So if you're going to characterize Calvin's writings or teachings as "inventions" to any extent, you would have to attribute them to Augustine, really.

She was a lapsed Catholic, ex-hippie who became a Protestant during the “Jesus Movement” of the ‘70’s., It was more an act of rebellion against our parents than anything else... She eventually led 8 of my other siblings out of the Church. Sadly, the ALL left because of an abject ignorance of their Catholic faith.
Ah, that's too bad... I don't know them, of course, but from what you say, it sounds to me that it may be that none of them were ever Christians in the first place... which, I could identify with, because my own extended family ~ whom I love, of course ~ is, sadly, filled with folks like that. Hearing echoes of 1 John 2:19 again...

The Church is the Original Tree because Christ is the Original Tree.
Members of Christ's Church ~ those who are born again of the Spirit and are in Christ ~ are the branches (John 15).

He and His Church are indivisible (Acts 9:4-5, Eph. 1:22-23, Col 1:18).
Agreed. Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:39).

And, whereas, all Protestant denominations that hold to the Nicene Creed are related to the Catholic Church – they are separated from it of it by choice.
Well... yeah... The "Catholic Church" as you are defining it, but that's what we've been talking about. LOL!

Sorry – but if you are a believer I Christ but you reject His Church – you may be a Christian by definition, but you’re outside of His Church
I don't reject His Church in any way and am not "outside His Church" (thanks be to God); you just think I do and am,.. which, of course, doesn't make it so.

Saul didn’t’ believe in Christ...
Not until he was called, no. But why, BreadOfLife, do you think that, once he had fallen off his horse, he heard Jesus's voice and followed (obeyed) Him? Remember, Jesus had said to His disciples only a few weeks before, "My sheep hear my voice, and they follow me..." (John 10:27)?

Luther, Calvin and the rest simply invented new doctrines and started their OWN versions of “Church” ...
That's the Catholic narrative, but nope.

...which could ONLY be built by Christ, not men.
Absolutely agree. And the Reformers most assuredly would concur.

And don’t get me started on Luther. He was a self-important, anti-Semite, hypocrite who had a LOT of issues with sin and forgiveness.
Luther was not without sin, by any stretch of the imagination, which he would certainly acknowledge; there was a point at which he thought God would not ~ indeed could not ~ forgive him of all his sin. And that was actually due in large part, maybe fully, to his devotion to Catholicism. But then he came to understand, as least as much as any human being can, God's grace...

And, he admitted adding the word 'alone' to Rom. 3:28 of his own volition...
Is there anything else listed besides faith as the reason for God's justification of the sinner in Romans 3:28? I don't believe so... :)

And NOT every “believer” is a part of the Church.
Your "Catholic Church," no...

YOU said it was as divergent as Protestantism,
And it (Catholicism) is, as well as incredibly divergent, which you have said several times, although not in those exact words. I didn't somehow contradict myself in saying this, BOL.

We don’t have denomination within the Catholic Church. It is monolithic.
:)

WHY? Do you honestly believe that Gog allows doe rejection of His doctrine?? Give me ONE example of Jesus telling someone – “Ahhh – it’s okay of you don’t believe this doctrine. I’ll let it slide”
A TOTAL miss ~ avoidance, possibly ~ of the point. But yeah, no, Jesus never said or insinuated anything of that sort... :)

You can “recognize” or “identify” yourself as anything you want.
Well, thanks... LOL!

It DOESN’T mean that you are what you say.
Well sure. The heart is deceitful above all things, after all. Which is true of all of us, Catholics included...

I have - in HIS Church, which is the FULLNESS of Him (Eph. 1::22-23).
Well, I hope so. :) But you have just spent multiple posts intensely identifying with... a religious organization whose congregations are ~ well, claim to be, but that's far from the truth ~ united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices. A denomination.

Grace and peace to you.
 

PinSeeker

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That is a highly annoying presupposition.
The truth is sometimes annoying, I guess, or maybe inconvenient...

Mary does not mediate in the same way as Christ...
Or at all. She doesn't offer herself as a mediator of any kind, and was not and is not a mediator of any kind.

...to say we believe that she does is a stupid anti-Catholic canard that never stops.
Well, I didn't say that, really. So what you say is... not applicable to me, at least... To be more explicit (as if I were not), Catholics do recognize her as a mediator in some way and or to some extent ~ and others who have died, thus their prayers to them, as if they could answer or intercede on any person's behalf ~ between God and man, and such is not the case. There is only one Mediator, Christ. And in effect ~ even while possibly not the true intention ~ Catholics assign to her Co-Redeemer status.

Agreed. Sadly, anti-Mary Christians are covering up what their own reformers taught about Mary, or don't know and don't care.
Fantastic that you agree...

Interesting, though; I'm not sure who you're referring to as "anti-Mary Christians"... or even what you mean by that. But maybe discussing that particular thing is not prudent...

And it might be interesting to hear you say what you think the reformers taught about Mary... although maybe that's what you're agreeing with me on.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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This, coming from the KING of LIARS . . .
That's yet another lie from you. You know that lying is a sin, don't you? Maybe you weren't aware. Now you are, so stop doing it.

Anyway - I didn't lie. Since Protestant are voluntarily outside the Church - YOU just condemned them all. I didn't . . .
I wasn't talking about the false Catholic Church, Einstein Junior. I was talking about the church of which Jesus Christ is the cornerstone (Ephesians 2:19-22) and of which the apostles and prophets, of which Peter was only one, are the foundation of it.
 

BreadOfLife

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That's yet another lie from you. You know that lying is a sin, don't you? Maybe you weren't aware. Now you are, so stop doing it.
I calls'em as I sees'em . . .
I wasn't talking about the false Catholic Church, Einstein Junior. I was talking about the church of which Jesus Christ is the cornerstone (Ephesians 2:19-22) and of which the apostles and prophets, of which Peter was only one, are the foundation of it.
That would be the Catholic Church - the ONLY Church established by Christ.
He only established ONE Church - and He did that 2000 years ago.

He didn't establish tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrines based on the personal interpretations of the human founders - 1500 years later.
 

covenantee

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I calls'em as I sees'em . . .

That would be the Catholic Church - the ONLY Church established by Christ.
He only established ONE Church - and He did that 2000 years ago.

He didn't establish tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrines based on the personal interpretations of the human founders - 1500 years later.
How is it that your church shares its headquarters with the Mafia?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I calls'em as I sees'em . . .
Well, you don't "sees'em" very well. Pray for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

That would be the Catholic Church - the ONLY Church established by Christ.
No, it's not the ridiculous church/cult you belong to with the ludicrous pope and all that nonsense. I'm talking about the true church of which Jesus Christ is the cornerstone. You know, the one described in passages like Ephesians 2:19-22. Your church doesn't fit that description.

He only established ONE Church - and He did that 2000 years ago.
That is correct. Congrats on getting something right for once.

He didn't establish tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrines based on the personal interpretations of the human founders - 1500 years later.
I agree. Congrats on being right again. You're on a roll. I know this is new for you.
 

BreadOfLife

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Well he couldn't have been, given that Calvin came centuries after Augustine. But the fact is that Augustine and Calvin were very, very close in their understandings of Scripture.
Once again, Augustine’s earliest writings closer reflect those of Calvin on the surface – until you read his later works in which he finally arrives at the truth.

EVERY journey is fraught with error – especially at the beginning.

Well, I would put it thusly, that Catholicism had its roots in Augustine's writings and teachings, as well as Jerome (who I've mentioned positively already), Ambrose, and Gregory.
Inasmuch as they explained the doctrines that the Church teaches.

They didn’t invent doctrines like Calvin and Luther.


That's... what Catholics will say, certainly. :) But... :) I'll just say that "TULIP" only came about as a response to Jacobus Arminius's five assertions. Characterizing Calvin's responses as "inventions" is really quite the opposite of what they are. And, as I have said, the disagreement between Augustine and Pelagius (in order) around the turn of the fifth century was essentially the same as that between Calvin and Arminius (also in order). Augustine and Calvin were on the same page; Calvin's writings and teachings are very, very similar to Augustine's. John Calvin himself wrote, "Augustine is so wholly within me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings." Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion (which I'm looking at on my bookshelf at this very moment... :) ~ quotes Augustine directly in a fourth of this work.

So if you're going to characterize Calvin's writings or teachings as "inventions" to any extent, you would have to attribute them to Augustine, really.
WRONG

Just because Calvin himself attributed his teachings as having mirrored Augustine’s doesn’t automatically make it so.

For example – whereas Calvin believed in Double Predestination – Augustine did NOT.

His view on predestination is the Catholic view – that God does NOT coerce. He already knows from all eternity what choices everyone has made. He wrote:
“God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us” (CCC 1847).

Ah, that's too bad... I don't know them, of course, but from what you say, it sounds to me that it may be that none of them were ever Christians in the first place... which, I could identify with, because my own extended family ~ whom I love, of course ~ is, sadly, filled with folks like that. Hearing echoes of 1 John 2:19 again...
She started out from rebellion – but eventually grew in her faith. Her husband is now a pastor of their own church. I would definitely classify ALL of the as Christians, who , unfortunately have chosen to live a portion of the Gospel, instead of its fullness.

Members of Christ's Church ~ those who are born again of the Spirit and are in Christ ~ are the branches (John 15).
No – you are conflating the Parable of the Vine and Branches with the Tree metaphor.
Agreed. Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:39).
Correct – except for OURSELVES.
Nobody can pluck us out of His had – but WE can walk away.

Well... yeah... The "Catholic Church" as you are defining it, but that's what we've been talking about. LOL!
There is only ONE Catholic Church.
Only a relativist redefines things so they can have they own “truth”.

I don't reject His Church in any way and am not "outside His Church" (thanks be to God); you just think I do and am,.. which, of course, doesn't make it so.
Again – Jesus built ONE Church – not tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrines based ion the personal teachings of their human founders some 1500 years later.
Not until he was called, no. But why, BreadOfLife, do you think that, once he had fallen off his horse, he heard Jesus's voice and followed (obeyed) Him? Remember, Jesus had said to His disciples only a few weeks before, "My sheep hear my voice, and they follow me..." (John 10:27)?
Absolutely.

You also have to remember that Saul had not only been knock off a horse to the ground but was instantly blind as a bat. This would terrify anybody.

His FIRST thought wasn’t to “obey” Jesus – it was to get his sight back.

That's the Catholic narrative, but nope.
That’s a historical fact.

I’ve got one for you:
Sola Scriptura is not only not found in Scripture – there is no teaching that even resembles it. Scripture tells us that Scripture is Authoritative and useful (2 Tim. 3:16-17). It does NOT tell us that it is our SOLE Authority.

This is a 100% man-made invention.

Absolutely agree. And the Reformers most assuredly would concur.
And yet, they ALL started their own churches . . .
Luther was not without sin, by any stretch of the imagination, which he would certainly acknowledge; there was a point at which he thought God would not ~ indeed could not ~ forgive him of all his sin. And that was actually due in large part, maybe fully, to his devotion to Catholicism. But then he came to understand, as least as much as any human being can, God's grace...
HOGWASH.

This has NEVER been taught by the Catholic Church. In fact, Scrupulosity is considered a sin because it does not recognize Go’s forgiveness.

Luther’s scrupulosity was HIS problem – NOT the Church’s.

Is there anything else listed besides faith as the reason for God's justification of the sinner in Romans 3:28? I don't believe so... :)
That is a debate for another day. HOWEVER, Scripture is littered with warnings about adding or deleting words from it.
And the consequences are ALWAYS
damnation . . .,
Your "Catholic Church," no...
There is only ONE.
And it (Catholicism) is, as well as incredibly divergent, which you have said several times, although not in those exact words. I didn't somehow contradict myself in saying this, BOL.
You seem to have different definitions for everything.
:)
A TOTAL miss ~ avoidance, possibly ~ of the point. But yeah, no, Jesus never said or insinuated anything of that sort... :)
You completely dodged the issue.
Well, thanks... LOL!


Well sure. The heart is deceitful above all things, after all. Which is true of all of us, Catholics included...


Well, I hope so. :) But you have just spent multiple posts intensely identifying with... a religious organization whose congregations are ~ well, claim to be, but that's far from the truth ~ united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices. A denomination.

Grace and peace to you.
And again, your definitions suit YOU – nut are not necessarily a reflection of reality.

For the record – I have really enjoyed conversing with you. At times it has almost gotten personal – but I think we have avoided the ad hominem. I will do MY part to keep it
friendly. God bless.
 

Illuminator

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No, it's not the ridiculous church/cult you belong to with the ludicrous pope and all that nonsense. I'm talking about the true church of which Jesus Christ is the cornerstone. You know, the one described in passages like Ephesians 2:19-22. Your church doesn't fit that description.
Your man made tradition of a non-infallible church doesn't fit any description of the historic biblical Church, which is an extension of the Incarnation (united by the Eucharist) that you are ultimately railing against. You can't even admit the Council of Jerusalem reached an infallible decision.
+++
There is, in the Catholic vision of reality, a profound understanding of the impenetration of matter by grace which we call the Incarnational principle. The Incarnation of God the Son as Jesus Christ is the bedrock which underlies the Christian vision of the relationship between God and man. In assuming a human nature, God demonstrates at once that creation, including human nature, is not only good but is capable of being further elevated through the impenetration of the Divine life.

This is the basis of the entire sacramental system, which uses outward (material) signs to transmit to us a share of God’s life, from the initiation of the believer’s journey in Baptism to its conclusion in Anointing of the Sick. It is the basis of the Church, a visible society which itself serves as a living connection between God and man, a sort of meta-sacrament for the transmission and embodiment of grace. It is even the basis for all of society, which begins with a proper understanding of matrimony, which St. Paul tells us is a model for the relationship of Christ and the Church. For in matrimony a man and a woman join in a profound sanctifying union of both body and spirit, a union which is both faithful and fecund, generating new life.

This understanding of the goodness of creation, of matter, of humanity and of human joys and aspirations—and the lesson that this goodness is designed to be further filled, animated and elevated by the love of God—is so central to God’s plan that Christianity begins and ends with it. It begins with God’s self-emptying of glory as He takes on human flesh and it ends in the Resurrection of the glorified Christ, who henceforth forever retains His identity as man.

It ought to be obvious to just about everybody that no other religion incorporates this particular (and particularly profound) understanding of the relationship of nature to nature’s God. Every human philosophy inevitably makes too much of nature or too little, and sometimes both at once, as in modern secularism which sees nature as all and so ignores that to which it points. What may be surprising, however, is that even among Christians those who have doctrinally fallen away from Rome have largely lost the unique and special wholeness of this Christian vision. Thus, from its beginning, Protestantism has been preoccupied with what it regards as the depravity of human nature, its radical incapacity for goodness, its reliance on grace as on something which supplants man’s nature rather than penetrates it.

Here we find the cause of Protestantism’s inability to understand the importance of works to salvation, which led Luther to revise Scripture and declare the letter of St. James to be apocryphal. Here also we have the root of Calvin’s notion that some are predestined for heaven and others for hell by nothing but the arbitrary will of God. Nor are we surprised to find Protestant sects which have outlawed the celebration of Christmas itself, distrusting the human values and human joy which Christmas both represents and fulfills. Indeed, from the point of view of nature, Protestantism must be described as a very thin, a very incomplete religion.

By contrast, Catholicism flowers in nature, transforming and elevating not only man himself but man’s culture. The astonishing achievements of Catholic culture over two millennia—in art and literature, sculpture and architecture, education and government, work and play, fast and feast—are one and all rooted in the Incarnational principle. The sense that the human body is itself a repository of grace, a temple of the Holy Spirit, fosters a unique Catholic mode of being in which the mind and spirit are never alone, never cut off. Rather man worships God in his body, and carries all of nature beyond itself in the quest to fulfill the very end of religion, which is for all creation to give glory to God.

Not in the abstract, then, is Catholic salvation worked out, but in the concrete; not in the general, but in the particular. The Catholic vision is not one of being “attached” to Christ, but of “putting on” Christ (Gal 3:27), not one of merely receiving an external gift, but of living the Christ life deep within—so that I live, no not I, but Christ lives in me (Gal 2:20). Each virtue is cultivated, each habit transformed and elevated, each relationship purified, each work ennobled. And the power for this continuous transformation is nourished—no, actually ingested—and formed into community through the Eucharist, the Word quite literally made Flesh, the Body and Blood really and actually present, not in figure or even in grace alone, but in its very substance.

Every Catholic is called to a life-long process of incorporating (I choose the word advisedly) his whole self, body and soul, into Christ, and not only his self but his loves, his labors, his own small creations, and the entire world over which he has been given dominion. This project, in which no detail is neglected or flattened, and no element lost or discarded, is unique to Catholicism. As I have said, it is a project rooted in the Incarnational principle. But even the Incarnational principle is not so much explained as demonstrated, not so much taught as lived. It was lived first by Christ Himself, born of Mary and protected by Joseph, in Bethlehem, in a stable, in a manger—and so at length in us.
source
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Your man made tradition of a non-infallible church doesn't fit any description of the historic biblical Church, which is an extension of the Incarnation (united by the Eucharist) that you are ultimately railing against.
This is hilarious coming from a Catholic. Downright hilarious. As if Catholicism isn't full of man made tradition. LOL. Get real.

You can't even admit the Council of Jerusalem reached an infallible decision.
God is infallible. Scripture is infallible. Councils and creeds and all the religious nonsense you believe in are not infallible.

+++
There is, in the Catholic vision of reality, a profound understanding of the impenetration of matter by grace which we call the Incarnational principle. The Incarnation of God the Son as Jesus Christ is the bedrock which underlies the Christian vision of the relationship between God and man. In assuming a human nature, God demonstrates at once that creation, including human nature, is not only good but is capable of being further elevated through the impenetration of the Divine life.

This is the basis of the entire sacramental system, which uses outward (material) signs to transmit to us a share of God’s life, from the initiation of the believer’s journey in Baptism to its conclusion in Anointing of the Sick. It is the basis of the Church, a visible society which itself serves as a living connection between God and man, a sort of meta-sacrament for the transmission and embodiment of grace. It is even the basis for all of society, which begins with a proper understanding of matrimony, which St. Paul tells us is a model for the relationship of Christ and the Church. For in matrimony a man and a woman join in a profound sanctifying union of both body and spirit, a union which is both faithful and fecund, generating new life.

This understanding of the goodness of creation, of matter, of humanity and of human joys and aspirations—and the lesson that this goodness is designed to be further filled, animated and elevated by the love of God—is so central to God’s plan that Christianity begins and ends with it. It begins with God’s self-emptying of glory as He takes on human flesh and it ends in the Resurrection of the glorified Christ, who henceforth forever retains His identity as man.

It ought to be obvious to just about everybody that no other religion incorporates this particular (and particularly profound) understanding of the relationship of nature to nature’s God. Every human philosophy inevitably makes too much of nature or too little, and sometimes both at once, as in modern secularism which sees nature as all and so ignores that to which it points. What may be surprising, however, is that even among Christians those who have doctrinally fallen away from Rome have largely lost the unique and special wholeness of this Christian vision. Thus, from its beginning, Protestantism has been preoccupied with what it regards as the depravity of human nature, its radical incapacity for goodness, its reliance on grace as on something which supplants man’s nature rather than penetrates it.

Here we find the cause of Protestantism’s inability to understand the importance of works to salvation, which led Luther to revise Scripture and declare the letter of St. James to be apocryphal. Here also we have the root of Calvin’s notion that some are predestined for heaven and others for hell by nothing but the arbitrary will of God. Nor are we surprised to find Protestant sects which have outlawed the celebration of Christmas itself, distrusting the human values and human joy which Christmas both represents and fulfills. Indeed, from the point of view of nature, Protestantism must be described as a very thin, a very incomplete religion.

By contrast, Catholicism flowers in nature, transforming and elevating not only man himself but man’s culture. The astonishing achievements of Catholic culture over two millennia—in art and literature, sculpture and architecture, education and government, work and play, fast and feast—are one and all rooted in the Incarnational principle. The sense that the human body is itself a repository of grace, a temple of the Holy Spirit, fosters a unique Catholic mode of being in which the mind and spirit are never alone, never cut off. Rather man worships God in his body, and carries all of nature beyond itself in the quest to fulfill the very end of religion, which is for all creation to give glory to God.

Not in the abstract, then, is Catholic salvation worked out, but in the concrete; not in the general, but in the particular. The Catholic vision is not one of being “attached” to Christ, but of “putting on” Christ (Gal 3:27), not one of merely receiving an external gift, but of living the Christ life deep within—so that I live, no not I, but Christ lives in me (Gal 2:20). Each virtue is cultivated, each habit transformed and elevated, each relationship purified, each work ennobled. And the power for this continuous transformation is nourished—no, actually ingested—and formed into community through the Eucharist, the Word quite literally made Flesh, the Body and Blood really and actually present, not in figure or even in grace alone, but in its very substance.

Every Catholic is called to a life-long process of incorporating (I choose the word advisedly) his whole self, body and soul, into Christ, and not only his self but his loves, his labors, his own small creations, and the entire world over which he has been given dominion. This project, in which no detail is neglected or flattened, and no element lost or discarded, is unique to Catholicism. As I have said, it is a project rooted in the Incarnational principle. But even the Incarnational principle is not so much explained as demonstrated, not so much taught as lived. It was lived first by Christ Himself, born of Mary and protected by Joseph, in Bethlehem, in a stable, in a manger—and so at length in us.
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Did you somehow miss when I said that I'm not a Calvinist? This seems to be mostly a rant against Calvinism. I almost fell asleep reading this. I did notice the nonsense about Jesus's body and blood being "really and actually present" through the Eucharist. What a joke that is. You can't be taken seriously when you believe in utter nonsense like that.
 

WPM

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None of the sources used by BofL are Catholic, so how is the secular/Christian media sources "Romanist fake news"???
Playing the 'sex abuse card' against Catholics always backfires, your reply is a childish temper tantrum. Please explain to me how the world's largest charity is corrupt to the core. The real anti-Catholic "fake news" is pretending nothing has been done to correct the problem.

CLERGY SEXUAL ABUSE NEAR ZERO PERCENT​

Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on the latest data on clergy sexual abuse:
The United States Conference of Catholic Bishop’ Secretariat of Child and Youth Protection has released its audit on clergy sexual abuse that covers the period July 1, 2018 – June 30, 2019.

During this time, there were 37 allegations made by current minors. Eight were substantiated, 7 were unsubstantiated, 6 were unable to be proven, 12 are still being investigated, 3 were referred to religious orders, and 1 was referred to another diocese.

Of the 49,972 members of the clergy (33,628 priests and 16,344 deacons), .07% (37) had an accusation made against them for abusing a minor. However, since only .016% (8) could be substantiated, that means that 99.98% of priests did not have a substantiated accusation made against them.

In other words, clergy sexual abuse is near 0%.

It is hardly surprising that the media are ignoring this story. The only stories about the Catholic Church that they see fit to print or air are those that put the Church in a negative light. That they wallow in dirt cannot be denied.




here's a list of Protestant leaders who met face to face with victims
View attachment 32805

Lol. Hello, these perverts take years to get caught. They use and abuse their position to corrupt innocent little boys and scar them for life. Shame! This is institutional perversion. It is an evil cesspool of iniquity.
 

Illuminator

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So if you're going to characterize Calvin's writings or teachings as "inventions" to any extent, you would have to attribute them to Augustine, really.
 

Illuminator

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This is hilarious coming from a Catholic. Downright hilarious. As if Catholicism isn't full of man made tradition. LOL. Get real.
It's not our fault you refuse to differentiate between customs and rubrics with Tradition (properly defined, which you never do)
God is infallible. Scripture is infallible. Councils and creeds and all the religious nonsense you believe in are not infallible.
Then you automatically rule out the canon of Scripture, preserved, defined and proclaimed by the very councils you reject, a stupid exercise in futile circular reasoning.
Did you somehow miss when I said that I'm not a Calvinist? This seems to be mostly a rant against Calvinism. I almost fell asleep reading this. I did notice the nonsense about Jesus's body and blood being "really and actually present" through the Eucharist. What a joke that is. You can't be taken seriously when you believe in utter nonsense like that.
source is not a rant against Calvinism, it's an explanation of the Incarnation principle. To reject that is to reject the Incarnation itself but you don't know any better.
You can't be taken seriously when you keep running from official teaching. Conjuring phantoms and false caricatures of the Eucharist is more fashionable.
+++

God became man (Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior). The incarnation was the event in salvation history that raised matter to previously unknown heights. All created matter was “good” from the start (Gen 1:25), but was “glorified” by the incarnation.

Ritual and “physicality” were not abolished by the coming of Christ. Quite the contrary: it was the incarnation that fully established sacramentalism as a principle in the Christian religion. The latter may be defined as the belief that matter can convey grace.

It's really that simple, at bottom, or in essence. God uses matter both to help us live better lives (sanctification) and to ultimately save us (regeneration and justification), starting with baptism itself.

The atonement or redemption of Christ (His death on the cross for us) was not purely “spiritual”. It was as physical (“sacramental”, if you will) as it could be, as well as spiritual. Protestants often piously refer to “the Blood of Jesus,” and rightly so (see Rev 5:9; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Heb 9:12; 1 Pet 1:2; 1 Jn 1:7; etc.). This is explicitly sacramental thinking.

It was the very suffering of Jesus in the flesh, and the voluntary shedding of His own blood, which constituted the crucial, essential aspect of His work as our Redeemer and Savior. One can't avoid this: “he was bruised for our iniquities” (Is 53:5).

So it is curious that many Protestants appear to possess a pronounced hostility to the sacramental belief of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, seeing that it flows so straightforwardly from the incarnation and the crucifixion itself.

This brings to mind an analogy to the Jewish and Muslim disdain for the incarnation as an unthinkable (impossible?) task for God to undertake. They view the incarnation in the same way that the majority of Protestants regard the Eucharist.

For them God wouldn't or couldn't or shouldn't become a man (such a thought is blasphemous; unthinkable!). For many (not all) Protestants, God wouldn't or couldn't or shouldn't become substantially, physically, sacramentally present under the outward forms of bread and wine.

The dynamic or underlying premise is the same. If Christ could become man, He can surely will to be actually and truly present in what was formerly (and still looks like) bread and wine, once consecrated.

The New Testament is filled with incarnational and sacramental indications: instances of matter conveying grace. The Church is the “Body” of Christ (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22-23; 5:30), and marriage (including its physical aspects) is described as a direct parallel to Christ and the Church (Eph 5:22-33; esp. 29-32).

Jesus even seems to literally equate Himself in some sense with the Church, saying He was “persecuted” by Paul, after the Resurrection (Acts 9:5).

Not only that; in St. Paul's teaching, one can find a repeated theme of identifying very graphically and literally with Christ and His sufferings (see: 2 Cor 4:10; Phil 2:17; 3:10; 2 Tim 4:6; and above all, Col 1:24).

Matter conveys grace all over the place in Scripture:
  • baptism confers regeneration (Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Pet 3:21; cf. Mk 16:16; Rom 6:3-4; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:5).
  • Paul's “handkerchiefs” healed the sick (Acts 19:12),
  • as did even Peter's shadow (Acts 5:15),
  • and of course, Jesus' garment (Mt 9:20-22)
  • and saliva mixed with dirt (Jn 9:5 ff.; Mk 8:22-25),
  • as well as water from the pool of Siloam (Jn 9:7).
  • Anointing with oil for healing is encouraged (Jas 5:14).
  • We also observe in Scripture the laying on of hands for the purpose of ordination and commissioning (Acts 6:6; 1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6) to facilitate the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17-19; 13:3; 19:6),
  • and for healing (Mk 6:5; Lk 13:13; Acts 9:17-18).
  • Even under the old covenant, a dead man was raised simply by coming in contact with the bones of the prophet Elisha (2 Kings 13:21): which is also one of the direct evidences for the Catholic practice of the veneration of relics (itself an extension of the sacramental principle).
Sacramentalism is a “product” of the incarnation, just as the Church also is. But we must also understand that the sacraments are not “magic charms.” The Church also teaches that one should have the correct “interior disposition” when receiving them. Fr. John A. Hardon, S. J.: the great catechist, wrote, in an entry on “Sacramental Dispositions”:

Condition of soul required for the valid and/or fruitful reception of the sacraments. . . . In the recipient who has the use of reason is required merely that no obstacles be placed in the way. Such obstacles are a lack of faith or sanctifying grace or of a right intention.​
(Modern Catholic Dictionary, Garden City, New York, Doubleday & Company, 1980, 477)

Likewise, The Catechism of the Catholic Church, in its section on ex opere operato (#1128), notes:
“Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.”​

The sacrament of the Eucharist, for example, will not have a positive effect or convey grace if received by a person in mortal sin (see 1 Cor 11:27-30; CCC #1415), and priestly absolution is null and void without the necessary prerequisite of true repentance.

This is all the more true of sacramentals (things like holy water, scapulars, blessings, miraculous medal, genuflection, etc.), which depend entirely on the inner state of the one using or receiving them. Intent, sincerity, motivation, piety, and suchlike are all supremely important in the Catholic life.

The scapular will not “work” for a person who neglects the pursuit of righteousness and obedience and views it as a “magic charm” (which is occultic superstition) rather than a Catholic sacramental. A piece of cloth cannot rescind the normal duties of the Catholic life.

Nor is God some sort of celestial “vending machine.” He wants our hearts; he wants us: not meaningless outward obedience without the proper interior motivation, in love, and by His grace. Sacraments help us, but we must do our part, too.
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