22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[BreadOfLife]

No, it's not the ridiculous church/cult you belong to with the ludicrous pope and all that nonsense. I'm talking about the true church of which Jesus Christ is the cornerstone. You know, the one described in passages like Ephesians 2:19-22. Your church doesn't fit that description.

It's the ONY Church - so it fits the description.

That is correct. Congrats on getting something right for once.
I agree. Congrats on being right again. You're on a roll. I know this is new for you.

Wow - the scales are finally falling from your eyes . . .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not our fault you refuse to differentiate between customs and rubrics with Tradition (properly defined, which you never do)

Then you automatically rule out the canon of Scripture, preserved, defined and proclaimed by the very councils you reject, a stupid exercise in futile circular reasoning.

How the Satanic Black Mass Proves the Truth of Catholicism

There have been a number of stories in the news lately of small Satanic groups publicly performing so-called “Black Masses.” These rituals are based on the Catholic mass but are inverted toward Satan and often involve the desecration of a Eucharistic host. This sort of thing is evil and should

www.churchpop.com

You couldn't possibly be more boring if you tried. I'm done with you. Bye.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's the ONY Church - so it fits the description.

Your false church does not fit the description of a church (as described in Ephesians 2:19-22) that has Christ alone as its Rock and cornerstone with Peter being only one of many apostles and prophets that make up its foundation.

Wow - the scales are finally falling from your eyes . . .

They fell from my eyes long ago. Hopefully, that will happen for you some day as well.

 

[covenantee]

They don't.

Since when is the Mafia run out of Rome?
Do your homework. It's Sicily, Einstein - Sicily . . .

Rome is Italy.

Sicily is Italy.

The host country of your church and the Mafia.

Great bedfellows.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Rome is Italy.

Sicily is Italy.

The host country of your church and the Mafia.

Great bedfellows.

You should take that up with Peter and Paul who worked hard and gave their lives to establish that Church and make it the preeminent Church where unity has its source.

Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).

Ambrose of Milan
[Christ] made answer: "You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . ." Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

Augustine
Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear "I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your false church does not fit the description of a church (as described in Ephesians 2:19-22) that has Christ alone as its Rock and cornerstone with Peter being only one of many apostles and prophets that make up its foundation.

It's the ONLY one that fits the description because ALL of the others were started by men.

They fell from my eyes long ago. Hopefully, that will happen for you some day as well.

No - but they might just be staring to . . .

 

[Illuminator]

Dr. Brant Pitre, Jesus & the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist​

 

[PinSeeker]

Once again, Augustine’s earliest writings closer reflect those of Calvin on the surface – until you read his later works in which he finally arrives at the truth.

Well, since Calvin came centuries after Augustine, and Calvin himself said his writings were along intimately similar lines as Augustine, you're statement here holds no water. So you're saying that Augustine... recanted at least a good portion of what he had asserted earlier in his life? It might be interesting to hear from you the things on which Augustine and Calvin differ (if they do), and where you think Augustine writes something that he had previously refuted... The one example you invoked, double predestination, has nothing to do with any kind of "coercion."

They didn’t invent doctrines like Calvin and Luther.

Luther and Calvin invented no doctrine; all there are are false attributions of doctrinal beliefs to them. Your "examples" here are fraught with them. Consequently, this is an empty accusation.

Just because Calvin himself attributed his teachings as having mirrored Augustine’s doesn’t automatically make it so.

Well I agree, of course, but it is what it is. We have both records to compare, and cannot refute what Calvin said regarding that.

For example – whereas Calvin believed in Double Predestination – Augustine did NOT.

His view on predestination is the Catholic view – that God does NOT coerce. He already knows from all eternity what choices everyone has made.

Ah, now, this is actually the Pelagian view (and Arminius after him), and quite the opposite of what Augustine's view (and Calvin's after him) was. It is true that the Catholic Church permits a range of views regarding predestination, but says in it's Catechism,

"God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end” (CCC 1037).​

John Calvin (and any good Calvinist) would heartily agree with that. The idea of God "coercing" His salvation is patently ridiculous, but that will not stop certain folks from throwing it around.

It sounds like you have a misunderstanding of what double predestination is. We know that God chooses some ~ these are His elect ~ and predestines those to be conformed to the image of Christ, and that this choosing is from before the foundation of the world, and according to His purpose of election, and before anyone has done anything good or bad. That's an amalgamation of basic Scriptural truths, namely from what Paul says in Romans 9 and Ephesians 1. "Double predestination," as it is called, is properly understood as His active predestination and His inactive predestination... in other words, because God did not predestine some to be conformed to Christ, He also predestined others in the sense that He did not choose and predestine them to be conformed to Christ. We do the same thing in the choices we make; in choosing between two things, we actively choose one thing, and by choosing it over the other thing, we also make the choice not to choose the other thing. Augustine held the same view. Augustine argued that while one's actions are of their own free will, the decision of salvation is only possible with the predestination of God, and Calvin followed suit. It is what it is, repulsive as it may seem to some. As Paul says in Romans 9:, "...the potter..." (God) "...(made) out of the same lump..." (of clay) "...one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use."

She started out from rebellion – but eventually grew in her faith. Her husband is now a pastor of their own church. I would definitely classify ALL of the as Christians, who , unfortunately have chosen to live a portion of the Gospel, instead of its fullness.

Well that's pretty elitist...

you are conflating the Parable of the Vine and Branches with the Tree metaphor.

No, I'm not...

Correct – except for OURSELVES. Nobody can pluck us out of His had – but WE can walk away.

Nobody ~ including ourselves, BreadOfLife, because we are all included in that 'no one'... even we ourselves are not excluded ~ can pluck us out of His hand. Yes, anyone can walk away, but if he or she truly does, he or she will prove to himself or herself that they were never of God's people, the ones who He has called unto Himself according to His purpose. It will be because He never knew him or her ~ 'knew' in the sense of your own exegesis of 'knowledge' some time ago in this conversation. You're really arguing here, at least on this one point, with John... and God. John is crystal clear on this point in 1 John 2.

There is only ONE Catholic Church.

I agree. One, holy, apostolic, catholic church. Yes, I agree.

Only a relativist redefines things so they can have they own “truth”.

Well, okay, or one who just denies reality, which is... pretty much exactly what you're doing, BOL...

Again – Jesus built ONE Church

Established (and not upon Peter...)... And it's being built, stone by stone, as Paul says in Ephesians 2.

– not tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrines based ion the personal teachings of their human founders some 1500 years later.

Sigh. <eyes rolling>

Absolutely.

Funny that you would say "absolutely" to a refutation of what you had said previously. But, okay, good...

You also have to remember that Saul had not only been knock off a horse to the ground but was instantly blind as a bat. This would terrify anybody. His FIRST thought wasn’t to “obey” Jesus – it was to get his sight back.

This is a bit superfluous, we have no idea what his first thought was, because Scripture doesn't tell us. All we know is that he fell to the ground upon the bright light shining all around him, and that, upon Jesus's questioning him, asked, "Who are you, lord?" This is what we read in both Acts 9 from Luke and Acts 26 in Luke's quote of Paul.

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

That’s a historical fact.

No, it's just a false narrative that "Luther, Calvin and the rest simply invented new doctrines and started their OWN versions of 'Church'”...

Sola Scriptura is not only not found in Scripture – there is no teaching that even resembles it.

Seems you have a false understanding of The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura. It has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

Scripture tells us that Scripture is Authoritative and useful (2 Tim. 3:16-17). It does NOT tell us that it is our SOLE Authority.

See above. I agree with you regarding authority as a general concept. But Scripture does tell us ~ Paul writes it in Romans 13 ~ that there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Some institute that authority at least somewhat well (but even then far from perfectly), and some most certainly do not. Only God has always exercised, does exercise, and will exercise authority perfectly.

This has NEVER been taught by the Catholic Church. In fact, Scrupulosity is considered a sin because it does not recognize God’s forgiveness. Luther’s scrupulosity was HIS problem – NOT the Church’s.

LOL! I don't think I insinuated anything about anything the Catholic Church taught or didn't teach in speaking of Martin Luther, BOL.

You completely dodged the issue.

I dodged what you tried to make that "issue" into, yes, but that was the problem.

For the record – I have really enjoyed conversing with you.

With all due respect, it doesn't seem like you have...

At times it has almost gotten personal...

Yes, that seems to be the case, that you have taken so much this personally. And I think that means more than you realize...

– but I think we have avoided the ad hominem. I will do MY part to keep it friendly.

Hmmmm...

God bless.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's the ONLY one that fits the description because ALL of the others were started by men.

Explain exactly how your ridiculous false church fits this description:

Ephesians 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

 

[Illuminator]

You should take that up with Peter and Paul who worked hard and gave their lives to establish that Church and make it the preeminent Church where unity has its source.

Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).

Ambrose of Milan
[Christ] made answer: "You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . ." Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

Augustine
Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear "I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

fergettit, bro. St. Pope John Paul II excommunicated all mafia members. They can't receive the sacraments and cannot be buried in Catholic cemeteries. Hollywood never got the memo. Coven
antee is faced with the impossible task of re-constructing church history based on the Bible alone. The Early Church Fathers, who were there as the Bible came into full bloom, give us a picture of authentic beliefs and practices of the early church. Not only that, it harmonizes with Paleo-Christian art found in the Roman catacombs. Buried and forgotten for centuries, they were discovered by archeologists in the late 16th century. Too bad they didn't find them a few decades sooner.

WHAT ARE THE ROMAN CATACOMBS?

The catacombs are underground tunnels that were forged out of soft rock. They are long, marrow winding corridors. The dead were buried in the walls on either side. From time to time, going through these corridors, one comes to a wider space like a room. In these rooms the Christians would gather for the sacrifice of the Mass so as to worship free from the pagan’s persecutions.

Burial in the catacombs stopped when the barbarians plundered Rome. The popes removed the relics of the saints and martyrs from the catacombs. The catacombs, once abandoned, were gradually forgotten and not discovered again until the end of the sixteenth century. Most famous of the catacombs is that of St. Callistus, where many of the popes were buried after they were martyred for the faith.

HOW THE CATACOMBS BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUE CATHOLIC FAITH TODAY

An authentic Catholic catechism, containing to true Catholic teachings, could be composed from the pictures and inscriptions on the tombs and walls of ancient catacombs of the first three centuries. Pictures, medals, and inscriptions in the catacombs identify the faith of the early Christians with the Catholic faith.

The catacombs prove that the first Christians believed that Jesus Christ is true God and true Man. They also believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the holy Eucharist, the divine institution of the papacy, the dignity of the mother of God, the intercession of the saints, purgatory, prayers for the deceased.

The emblem of the fish, ichthys, was frequently used in the catacombs. It is a symbol of the Lord Jesus, for the Greek word ichthys means “fish” and its letters are the initials for “Jesus Christ, God’s Son, Savior.” When Christians spoke of “receiving the fish”, they meant to receive Jesus in Holy communion.

Frequently, pictures of our Savior in the catacombs reveal him as the Good Shepherd., carrying the lost sheep on his shoulders. This is the ancient biblical form which reveals the same message as our modern devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. A number of people are sitting around a table on which is bread and fish.

Death and resurrection were often in the minds of the early Christians, as indicated by the pictures of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, Daniel in the lions’ den, and the raising of Lazarus. Their faith in resurrection and eternal life gave them courage in facing death under persecution. There is also the famous account of Tarsicius being martyred a he took the holy Eucharist, the bread of life, to Christian prisoners.

The eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass was offered in the catacombs on the altars under which rested the bodies of martyrs. Catholic altars even today have “altar stones” in which the relics of saints and martyrs were placed by bishops when they consecrated the altar stones.

A Catechism of the Catholic Church, by Robert J. Fox. Copyright©

10 Facts about Roman Catacombs | Facts of World

www.factsofworld.com

 

[Illuminator]

No, it's just a false narrative that "Luther, Calvin and the rest simply invented new doctrines and started their OWN versions of 'Church'”...

Historical facts are not "false narratives". Sola scriptura and sola fide is not found in scripture, not in the deposit of faith, and is historically bankrupt, unheard of until the reformers invented them.

Seems you have a false understanding of The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura. It has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

Sola scriptura presupposes you don't need the Magisterium or Tradition (grossly misrepresented by anti-Catholics) for sound teaching. The notion self-destructs. Without the Tradition of the Episcopate, there would be no Bible in the first place. Sola scriptura throws the baby out with the bath water.

See above. I agree with you regarding authority as a general concept. But Scripture does tell us ~ Paul writes it in Romans 13 ~ that there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Some institute that authority at least somewhat well (but even then far from perfectly), and some most certainly do not. Only God has always exercised, does exercise, and will exercise authority perfectly.

Hebrews 13:17 ESV​

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.​

Read full chapter
Hebrews 13:17 in all English translations < does this verse have an expiry date?

By What Authority?
A Challenge to Protestant Pastors

By What Authority - A Challenge to Protestant Pastors

www.catholicapologetics.info

 

[covenantee]

You should take that up with Peter and Paul who worked hard and gave their lives to establish that Church and make it the preeminent Church where unity has its source.

Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).

Ambrose of Milan
[Christ] made answer: "You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . ." Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

Augustine
Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear "I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

Vatican creates group to study separating mafia from the Catholic Church​

If you are or have been part of the Catholic Church, your brothers and sisters have been the Mafia.

Imagine that.

But no imagination necessary. It's been reality.

 

[Illuminator]

Vatican creates group to study separating mafia from the Catholic Church​

If you are or have been part of the Catholic Church, your brothers and sisters have been the Mafia.

Imagine that.

But no imagination necessary. It's been reality.

Stop trolling and try reading your own link. This has nothing to do with the Church of the first 3-4 centuries that you have little or nothing in common with. Posting stupid childish insults is not a reply the the quote. Grow up.

 

[Illuminator]

You should take that up with Peter and Paul who worked hard and gave their lives to establish that Church and make it the preeminent Church where unity has its source.

Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).

Ambrose of Milan
[Christ] made answer: "You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . ." Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

Augustine
Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear "I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

How to Avoid Converting to Catholicism, in 8 Easy Steps

As a Protestant convert to Catholicism whose journey culminated at the Easter Vigil earlier this year, I have some experience, oddly enough, in how to become a Catholic. For me, it was a particular, miraculous journey that I’ve been writing about for a few months now. For me, I

www.churchpop.com

 

[covenantee]

Stop trolling and try reading your own link. This has nothing to do with the Church of the first 3-4 centuries that you have little or nothing in common with. Posting stupid childish insults is not a reply the the quote. Grow up.


View attachment 32959

Why don't you love the Mafia? They're genuine Catholics, because they've been part of your church for many years.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Vatican creates group to study separating mafia from the Catholic Church

If you are or have been part of the Catholic Church, your brothers and sisters have been the Mafia.

Imagine that.

But no imagination necessary. It's been reality.

Besides being stupid and racist against Italians - your post offers us a window into the mind of a true mental midget . . .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Acts 17:10 As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

 

[PinSeeker]

Historical facts are not "false narratives".

LOL! But falsehoods regarding history are...

Sola scriptura and sola fide is not found in scripture...

The basis for the concepts most certainly are:

1. The Reformation concept of sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme ~ not "only," as it seems it is being falsely characterized ~ authority. As I pointed out above, Scripture is very clear in the following:

a. that "there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God" (Romans 13:2), so obviously, yes, there are earthly authorities, and the Catholic Church is one of them... for those in their purview​

​

b. that "(a)ll Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work"... important to note that there is nothing else pointed out here or anywhere else in all of Scripture that anything is on par with ~ or anywhere close to ~ Scripture, God's Word, for any of these purposes​

​

c. that, as Jesus Himself quotes Deuteronomy 8:3 when He says to Satan, "...man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord." Here again, nothing else is mentioned regarding anyone else's word or authority to live by, which is not to say that the word of any earthly authority is worthless or useless, but that the Lord's authoritative Word is above ~ far above ~ all other... words.​

​

d. (this list could go on and on, but just one more...) that Jesus, Who, as we know is the Word of God made flesh (John 1)... wow, yeah, this could go on and on but in John 8... said, "I am the light of the world... (w)hoever follows Me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life..." Here again, we have to acknowledge that Jesus, again, the "light of the world" ~ and he is referring to Psalm 119 here ("Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path") ~ claims exclusivity here as the light of the world. So again, yes, there can be earthly lights that can have some modicum of worth and/or use, but that the Word of God is the true Light.​

2. The Reformation concept of sola Fide (by faith alone) has to do with the fact that God-given faith is the only vehicle through which, the the basis on which we are saved ~ not that "nothing else need be present," as it seems it is being falsely characterized. Sola Fide absolutely does not downplay or soft-pedal, much less deny, in any way the importance of our works; indeed, we will be judged according to them (Psalm 62:12, Romans 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Peter 1:17, Revelation 20:12). But Paul especially is very clear on God-given faith being the only vehicle through which we are saved (basis of our salvation) in Ephesians 2:8, where he says, very succinctly, "by grace you have been saved through faith" ~ please note that there is nothing mentioned beyond faith, not even works, because to do so would make faith itself a work of man, which is absolutely antithetical to God's Word ~ and then immediately adds "this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works...". The only valid conclusion from even a cursory examination of what he says there is that if we are given this gift of faith, that works are the natural outworking of that gift; the good works result from this faith. This same Paul is clear in Romans 11:6 that "if it..." (God's foreknowing/choosing, 11:2, 5) "...is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." So again, this God-given faith is the only vehicle through which we are saved; our works (righteous deeds) otherwise are "filthy rags" or "polluted garments." And I would add that ~ if it's not perfectly clear at this point ~ absolutely none of this is to say that works are unimportant in any way, or even "non-essential" in the whole salvific picture. But, God alone is our salvation (Exodus 15:2, 1 Samuel 2:1, Psalm 18:2, Psalm 118:14, Isaiah 12:2).

, not in the deposit of faith, and is historically bankrupt, unheard of until the reformers invented them.

Ugh. See directly above. That "invented" accusation would just as well be leveled at God Himself, but I would recommend against that; His response would probably be very similar to His response to Job in Job 38-41 ~ "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to Me. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding..." Well, if there were any response at all... As we know, Job finally said, "I have uttered what I did not understand... I had heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes" (Job 42:1-6).

Sola scriptura presupposes you don't need the Magisterium or Tradition (grossly misrepresented by anti-Catholics) for sound teaching.

No, it actually doesn't. No Reformer every said or insinuated that there is no other written word that offers anything good or is useful for sound teaching; such would be ridiculous, because they would even be saying, "Hey, don't listen to me or read anything I wrote," so it doesn't presuppose what you say at all. As I said, it states that God is the ultimate Authority in all spiritual matters.

The notion self-destructs.

Yours does, yes, because ~ and I mean no offense by this ~ the premises, even concerning sola Scriptura and sola Fide, are just erroneous.

Without the Tradition of the Episcopate, there would be no Bible in the first place.

So the "Tradition of the Episcopate" is responsible for... Jesus...? Or... the Holy Spirit, Who superintended the writing of all Scripture...? Or... the Father, Whose Word the Bible is...?

Grace and peace to youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.......

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, it's just a false narrative that "Luther, Calvin and the rest simply invented new doctrines and started their OWN versions of 'Church'”...

Sorry – it’s a historical FACT.

Calvin’s TULIP doctrines and Luther’s Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide were NEVER taught in the historical Church. They were 16th century inventions – and all these guys set up their own factions apart from the Church.

Seems you have a false understanding of The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura. It has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture.

The Church understands the Authority of Scripture.
However, Luther placed ultimate Authority on Scripture – something that Scripture itself doesn’t support.

Forget the fact that the Church existed before the New Testament – the Bible tells us over and over that the Church is out final earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Before the Church declared the Canon of the NT in 383 at the Synod of Rom – there were MANY Books that were considered to be “Scripture” and read aloud from pulpits for 300 years. Books like The Shepherd of Hermas, The Gospel of Peter, the apocalypse of Peter, The Protoevangelium of James, The Epistles of Barnabas, etc.

This SINGLE fact shows the Church’s Supreme, God -given Authority.

See above. I agree with you regarding authority as a general concept. But Scripture does tell us ~ Paul writes it in Romans 13 ~ that there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Some institute that authority at least somewhat well (but even then far from perfectly), and some most certainly do not. Only God has always exercised, does exercise, and will exercise authority perfectly.

And Jesus told the leaders of His Church at the Last Supper:

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

He told them that WHATEVER they bound or loosed on earth would be bound and loosed in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18).

That is Supreme Authority.

LOL! I don't think I insinuated anything about anything the Catholic Church taught or didn't teach in speaking of Martin Luther, BOL.

You absolutely did.
You stated that it was probably from his years in the Catholic Church.

The Church has ALWAYS taught against scrupulosity.

With all due respect, it doesn't seem like you have...

I have – because although I vehemently disagree with you on some things – it hasn’t descended into an angry insult-feat like so many of these debates do.

It’s gotten a little heated at times – but it has remained pretty civil.

Yes, that seems to be the case, that you have taken so much this personally. And I think that means more than you realize...

I don’t think I’ve taken any of it “personally”.

I just won’t permit certain things to flu under my radar without rebuttal . . .