22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
14,579
8,267
113
58
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Right. Did I say otherwise? But, it was a spiritual event, right? Can something spiritual not also be literal? Of course it can. Why can't you comprehend that?
When someone says something is spiritual. they are saying they are not literal events. That are spiritual truths.

Something that literally happens happens.. A spiritual event is not something that happens. It is something that represents a spiritual truth

Thats why John spoke of physical things to represent the events which happened

I don't need to do that, either. But, I also recognize that if something is spiritual or if something is described symbolically, that doesn't mean it won't happen. Something doesn't need to be described literally in order to happen. Is this concept too hard for you to understand?
Satan being bound is a literal event
Satan being shut up is a literal event
Satan being put in prison is a literal event
Saying that satan is really not shut up or put in prison but is only bound from doing one particular thing, is not determining this is a literal event, you are using a spiritul interpretation and trying to water down what really happened.
If I believe what exactly?

go back and read what I said.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not so fast. Please read it again.

Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

It says the child would die a hundred years old, not the sinner. So, you're saying that no one would mourn a 100 year old who dies at that time?

You’re saying sinners will be there?
 

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
14,579
8,267
113
58
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not so fast. Please read it again.

Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

It says the child would die a hundred years old, not the sinner. So, you're saying that no one would mourn a 100 year old who dies at that time?
I can not see who you are talking to. but i have a question. Will there be babies born in heaven?
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When someone says something is spiritual. they are saying they are not literal events. That are spiritual truths.
So, you equate the word spiritual with the word physical. Even though a spiritual event like Pentecost literally happened. I'm not going to waste any more time over semantics like this. It's a complete waste of time and results in making it impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You’re saying sinners will be there?
Ugh! Why does communicating on here have to be so difficult? I don't get it.

Let me try to spell this out for you. You say that Isaiah 65:20 should be interpreted literally and should be applied to a future thousand year earthly kingdom of Christ, right? And you believe people will die during that time, right? Yet, verse 19 says there will be no more weeping or crying at that time. So, my question for you, again, is will people not mourn when people die during that time? This is a very straightforward question. Just a yes or no answer will suffice.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I read the end of chapter 19 and the begining of chapter 20 as one comment. three characters who are involved in the last days upon christs return. and three things whihc happened to all three

I saw this, then I saw that, then I saw that,.


Yes you did

I already showed you how this logic is false. and your argument falls



I did not overlook anything. You have failed to prove you point IN the passage.. You did not show me where chapter 20 is a different context.

once again. God did not write the letter 20 in the bible. nor did John, It was one letter..

Read it as the letter.

Exactly, and repeatedly ignore the climactic biblical detail in Revelation 19 that shows that the second coming is the end of the world.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
5,425
2,204
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then how is the death in verse 20 explained if verse 20 is NHNE?
You know, it wouldn’t do any harm to your assertion if verse 20 jumps backward. There were no chapter headings originally, so I wouldn’t follow chapters and chapter headings added later with any sort of religiosity.

Does anyone die?
Is there any more child birth?
Does no one cry at their loss?
Does anybody stub their toe?
Does any mother cutting onions shed a tear?
Does anyone have appendicitis?
Does anyone have kidney stones?
Does anyone have a heart attack?
Does anyone have shingles?
Does anyone accidentally stand on a nail?
Are there not any more motor bike, car, train or aeroplane crashes?
Premils say salvation continues but is there no more tears of repentance?
Are there no tears of joy over marriage, births, anniversaries?
Are there no tears of joy at seeing Jesus?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
lol.. yet chapter 20 fits perfectly well.. Unlike rev 12.. it does not fit in the end with Rev 11.

Even if you do not agree that rev 20 immediately follows. You can not deny it can not immediately follow in context..
Yes, I can and I have and I will continue to do so. Because, unlike you, I take the rest of scripture into account when interpreting it. You obviously start out interpreting Revelation 20 in isolation from the rest of scripture and then change the rest of scripture to fit your interpretation of Revelation 20.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,609
21,713
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then please explain how that works exactly. You understand that spirit beings aren't physical beings that can be physically chained up, right?
There are terrestrial bodies, and celestial bodies, and the physics that govern the one, and the physics that govern the other, are not necessarily the same.

Do you truly believe that it is impossible for God to materially and fully bind a cherub? I don't.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,609
21,713
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When someone dies at 100, they will say, "OH! He was just a child!"

Much love!
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,470
586
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As expected, you're unable to provide any evidence to support your claim.

So you've been lying.
Lying about what? Did you not say people were preterist in 66AD, a preterist event? That is the only lie right here:

The Judean Christians fled in 66 AD. That qualifies as a preterist event.

The Judean Christians fled it. They were preterists.

Jesus foretold it (Matthew 24:16). He was a preterist.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,609
21,713
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't believe there is such a thing.
Why not? Are you familiar with all things that exist and could exist? If you believed the saying of the Word, then it should be a foregone conclusion that what God said He can do.

God has more power than His creation.

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When someone dies at 100, they will say, "OH! He was just a child!"
And no one will mourn for that person?

Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,470
586
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you would actually take the time to look at the text and detail you would better understand it. There is zero contradiction. I've already showed this on this thread, but you obviously missed it or simply just rejected it.

Let us have a literal word-by-word look at the Hebrew pertaining to Isaiah 65:20.

לֹא־יִֽהְיֶ֨ה מִשָּׁ֜ם עֹ֗וד ע֤וּל יָמִים֙ וְזָקֵ֔ן אֲשֶׁ֥ר
Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
Not be hence more an infant [of] days, an old man after


לֹא־
lō-
Not

יִֽהְיֶ֨ה
yih-yeh
Be

מִשָּׁ֜ם
miš-šām
Hence

ע֗וֹד
‘ō-wḏ,
More

ע֤וּל
‘ūl
an infant

יָמִים֙
yā-mîm
[of] days

וְזָקֵ֔ן
wə-zā-qên,
an old man

אֲשֶׁ֥ר
’ă-šer
After

What is this telling us?

Basically: a child will never become old on the new earth.

לֹֽא־יְמַלֵּ֖א אֶת־יָמָ֑יו כִּ֣י הַנַּ֗עַר בֶּן־מֵאָ֤ה שָׁנָה֙ יָמ֔וּת
Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
Not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old an hundred years die


לֹֽא־
lō-
Not

יְמַלֵּ֖א
yə-mal-lê
Fulfill

אֶת־
’eṯ-
Your

יָמָ֑יו
yā-māw;
Days

כִּ֣י

Inasmuch

הַנַּ֗עַר
han-na-‘ar,
a child

בֶּן־
ben-
Old

מֵאָ֤ה
mê-’āh
Hundred

שָׁנָה֙
šā-nāh
Years

יָמ֔וּת
yā-mūṯ,
Die

What is this telling us?

The exact same thing, only in different terms.

This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. In eternity there will be no more aging or dying. It is not going to be like our corrupt age where infants eventually get old. It will not be like the here-and-now where a man could live to be an old person of a hundred years of age and then die.

This passage is actually saying the opposite to what many think. What this is saying is: there will be no more aging, curse or death on the new earth. Every glorified saints will have come to full maturity in Christ with their new perfect eternal bodies. It is the next line of Isaiah 65:20 that has confused many, because the translators have not interpreted it in a literal word-for-word sense. It is not saying there will be more babies, death and old men. It is saying the opposite to what they are alleging. It is saying that there will be no more aging: children getting old, old people and people dying! It is describing eternity to an Old Testament audience in terms they can grasp.

The new heavens and new earth will indeed be a glorious victorious perfect state where death is unknown. God is saying that the eternal state will actually be free of death for young and old alike. This passage is telling us that there will be no more death on the new earth! The Hebrew word Lo' (Strong’s 3808) means “no” or “not.” The word is a simple negation. The word is found twice in this much-debated new heavens and new earth verse.

Debate in Isaiah 65:20 centers in on the use of the original word yaamuw meaning “die” or “death.” What should we relate it to? Is there indeed “death” on the new earth? Also, should the death be related to the “child” in the second phrase or the “sinner” in the third phrase? What is more, in what way should it read? I must admit, if we are to read it in its most natural way it fits perfectly with the context. So why change it? I believe it should be applied to the “child” as it should agree with the first phrase that is simply a reinforcement of the same truth. It then fits perfectly with the whole overall teaching of the prophet on the perfection and bliss of the eternal state.

No (לֹֽא־ or Lo') longer will an infant become like an old man,
No (לֹֽא־ or Lo') longer will a child reach one hundred and die.

This is Old Testament verbiage that describes eternity to the Old Testament listener. It is telling us: no one is going to age! This relates to the new heaven and new earth not some supposed future millennium – that will never happen.
So the Millennium will be perfect just like your eternity outside of any creation.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why not? Are you familiar with all things that exist and could exist? If you believed the saying of the Word, then it should be a foregone conclusion that what God said He can do.

God has more power than His creation.
Because Satan is a spirit being and it's talking about physical things like a dragon being chained up in a prison. I've already explained this many times and you still have to ask me "why not?".
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,609
21,713
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When someone says something is spiritual. they are saying they are not literal events. That are spiritual truths.

Something that literally happens happens.. A spiritual event is not something that happens. It is something that represents a spiritual truth

Thats why John spoke of physical things to represent the events which happened
Yes, they say this is a "spiritual" binding, so that they can redefine what that binding is. So then then they weaken the force of that binding, allowing Satan to still act as though unbound, roaming about, a "long leash", to allow as though the prophecy were fulfilled now, in this time, as a means of "reconciling" this passage with others, as they interpret within a framework that does not divide the dispensational times of the Bible, and therefore cannot allow an Israel-centric Kingdom reign of Jesus Christ. (sorry about the run-on sentence . . .)

If we understand that God has always intended, and will fulfull His promises to Abraham, and through faith in Christ, His covenant with Israel, then we recognize that Israel has been blinded in part, now, but that at the end of the age will be the "time of Jacob's trouble", and he will be saved through that happening. Meanwhile in this time of partial blinding, God is calling out the body of Christ out of the world.

Israel was to be the light of the world, the city on a hill, to which the gentiles would flow, and come into covenant with God. When Israel refused to receive Jesus, their lamp was removed, and God sent His Apostle directly to the gentiles.

It's this outright rejection of "all things dispensational" that forces people into that position of having to turn things into allegory, parable, symbol, though no such is stated, and no meaning is given. I realize that many people have a difficult time with many aspects of dispensational teaching, just the same, dispensational distinctions do appear in the Scriptures, and unless you take them into account, you are going to come up with the wrong answer.

And when that happens, when we find our view creates a conflict in our understandings of one passage when compared to another, we have a choice, either change our view, or "change the passage". And that's one way to do it. "That obviously doesn't mean what it seems to say!"

It's a cognitive device to protect the mind from self-contradiction. But we need to understand, God means what He says, and He does not contradict Himself. We need to be the ones to change, not change the Scriptures into something they are not.

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If we understand that God has always intended, and will fulfull His promises to Abraham, and through faith in Christ, His covenant with Israel, then we recognize that Israel has been blinded in part, now, but that at the end of the age will be the "time of Jacob's trouble", and he will be saved through that happening. Meanwhile in this time of partial blinding, God is calling out the body of Christ out of the world.
Why don't you just accept what Paul said about God's promises to Abraham and his seed? You say they apply to national Israel. Paul said they apply to Christ and those who belong to Christ. Your doctrine seems to completely ignore New Testament passages like this:

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Your earthly nation of Israel-centric doctrine contradicts a great deal of New Testament scripture like this.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,609
21,713
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ugh! Why does communicating on here have to be so difficult? I don't get it.

Let me try to spell this out for you. You say that Isaiah 65:20 should be interpreted literally and should be applied to a future thousand year earthly kingdom of Christ, right? And you believe people will die during that time, right? Yet, verse 19 says there will be no more weeping or crying at that time. So, my question for you, again, is will people not mourn when people die during that time? This is a very straightforward question. Just a yes or no answer will suffice.
Your answer is there in the word, if you accept it.

It sounds like you would define life and conditions in the millennial kingdom according to how you see it all in the here and now, however, the point is, it's not going to be like now, not at all!

Consider . . . With Jesus on the throne hands on ruling the world with a rod of iron, there won't be all this nonsense perversions of God's truth, and the real truth will be what will be proclaimed.

The one who dies, righteous according to God, remains with God. We mourn now out of our own feeling of loss, but what when you come to realize that what happens to someone else is about them, not you, and will you mourn when your beloved leaves the limitations of this life, to be more fully with God?

Why assume that you will cry then because you cry now?

If my wife dies today I will cry for myself but not for her. If I am resting in the joy of my Lord, I won't need to cry for myself.

You say this is a straightforward question, it's what I call a "gotcha" question. And a huge percentage of this thread comes across to me just like that. Clever sounding turns of phrase, but with assumptions built in, and loaded language to steer it, that's why I'm not participating so much.

I've seen the thought processes at work here, I'm just hoping to point to some of the root passages and considerations, hoping to plant a seed or two.

Mostly I just like to challenge people to believe the Word of God in what it says for itself, and that true understanding is seen in the various passages being fully reconciled without changing the meanings of any. Not by denying the words, not by denying their meanings, or their contexts. No convoluted arguments that are rooted in "obviously it can't mean that".

Much love!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.