24 elders in Heaven

[Fred J]

Friends, it's been daunting in my mind about this subject, and will not mislead anyone who participates, into falsehood.

To Al-Mighty GOD alone be all Honor, Glory and Praise in Jesus Mighty name for ever and ever. Amen.

Let's begin, for these 24 elders in Heaven are probably the 'patriarchs of Israel', do you all agree or disagree?

Is there any Biblical reference it is them and they have been taken up already?

And do the 'patriarchs' of the Old Testament result to 24 of them by count?

We read 'Enoch' and 'Elijah' were taken up alive in the same 'body', and too 'Moses', who with 'Elijah' appeared to meet Jesus in the New Testament

When scripture in the New Testament read, 'Flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of GOD'.

Salvation for the remission of sins was achieved in the New Testament.

And at the 'first resurrection', the dead in Christ shall rise and the living and remain, shall be 'changed' to the Heavenly body before 'taken up'.

'For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of GOD', for the 'patriarchs of Israel' are included too.

Let's reason, 'Enoch' was 'taken up' when the Law not given yet and sin is not recorded, therefore his body not included in sin and death.

But 'Elijah' was during the time of the Law and sin is being recorded, including his, how come 'bodily defiled', he's 'taken up'?

Probably exempted because the Law have daily rituals, where an Israelite's remission of sins is paid at the end of day, and he have complied.

Hence, satan and the angel of 'death' have no power over his 'body' and 'soul' since his sins are forgiven and taken away for the day.

Therefore when he's taken up his 'body' and 'soul' have been found 'pure' by chance, another way to put it, if i may?

Thank you and shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[quietthinker]

Friends, it's been daunting in my mind about this subject, and will not mislead anyone who participates, into falsehood.

To Al-Mighty GOD alone be all Honor, Glory and Praise in Jesus Mighty name for ever and ever. Amen.

Let's begin, for these 24 elders in Heaven are probably the 'patriarchs of Israel', do you all agree or disagree?

Is there any Biblical reference it is them and they have been taken up already?

And do the 'patriarchs' of the Old Testament result to 24 of them by count?

We read 'Enoch' and 'Elijah' were taken up alive in the same 'body', and too 'Moses', who with 'Elijah' appeared to meet Jesus in the New Testament

When scripture in the New Testament read, 'Flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of GOD'.

Salvation for the remission of sins was achieved in the New Testament.

And at the 'first resurrection', the dead in Christ shall rise and the living and remain, shall be 'changed' to the Heavenly body before 'taken up'.

'For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of GOD', for the 'patriarchs of Israel' are included too.

Let's reason, 'Enoch' was 'taken up' when the Law not given yet and sin is not recorded, therefore his body not included in sin and death.

But 'Elijah' was during the time of the Law and sin is being recorded, including his, how come 'bodily defiled', he's 'taken up'?

Probably exempted because the Law have daily rituals, where an Israelite's remission of sins is paid at the end of day, and he have complied.

Hence, satan and the angel of 'death' have no power over his 'body' and 'soul' since his sins are forgiven and taken away for the day.

Therefore when he's taken up his 'body' and 'soul' have been found 'pure' by chance, another way to put it, if i may?

Thank you and shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

I think you are too close to the forest, so to speak ........and you need to stand back a bit, so to speak.
Anyone who literally enters that 'other world' like Elijah, Enoch and Moses will have new bodies just as Jesus had a changed body, just as we will when the time comes....which means we don't have to worry about juggling 'before the law or after the law'

I don't definitively know who the 24 elders are but I can do some guessing.

Jesus' ministry mirrored Israel's ministry of sorts.
Here's a rough sketch and no doubt needs either more work or thrown out....
Israel had seventy men know as the Sanhedrin. They were administrators/ judges; Jesus had the seventy who were privy to his circle; he sent them out two by two as his representatives.
Israel had twelve tribes, Jesus had twelve apostles.

Perhaps the 24 elders you mentioned are 12 from the old covenant and twelve from the new? Like I said, this is just a pretty loose guess because I haven't thought it through to my own satisfaction

 

[Fred J]

I think you are too close to the forest, so to speak ........and you need to stand back a bit, so to speak.
Anyone who literally enters that 'other world' like Elijah, Enoch and Moses will have new bodies just as Jesus had a changed body, just as we will when the time comes....which means we don't have to worry about juggling 'before the law or after the law'

So to speak, thank you for the sarcasm and what comes out from you next is your 'fallacy'.

Jesus did not have a change of body, because the tomb was found 'empty', and He rose and ascended in the same body.

You have not quoted any supporting scripture, even to Elijah, Enoch and Moses had a change of body.

'Transfiguration' meaning, His 'same face' now did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light.

Scripture read that Elijah was 'taken up' in the same body, and there's no scripture to support your 'twisted' theory.

If Moses had a change of body, then why Michael the archangel had to dispute with satan for Moses' body?

And scripture read, the dead in Christ shall rise first and the living and remain in Christ, together will be 'changed', not the patriarchs of Israel.

Now you have to stand back a bit and examine your 'fallacy', and no thank you.

I don't definitively know who the 24 elders are but I can do some guessing.

Jesus' ministry mirrored Israel's ministry of sorts.
Here's a rough sketch and no doubt needs either more work or thrown out....
Israel had seventy men know as the Sanhedrin. They were administrators/ judges; Jesus had the seventy who were privy to his circle; he sent them out two by two as his representatives.
Israel had twelve tribes, Jesus had twelve apostles.

Perhaps the 24 elders you mentioned are 12 from the old covenant and twelve from the new? Like I said, this is just a pretty loose guess because I haven't thought it through to my own satisfaction

Your 'pretty loose gas' have left behind a very 'foul smell' in the room, best you get back to your 'quiethinking'.

Sorry friends, Jesus said, 'You cannot give what is good to dogs, nor cast your pearls to swine.'

And that's what am getting in return, being 'bitten' and my pearls 'trampled' on.

 

[quietthinker]

So to speak, thank you for the sarcasm and what comes out from you next is your 'fallacy'.

Jesus did not have a change of body, because the tomb was found 'empty', and He rose and ascended in the same body.

You have not quoted any supporting scripture, even to Elijah, Enoch and Moses had a change of body.

'Transfiguration' meaning, His 'same face' now did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light.

Scripture read that Elijah was 'taken up' in the same body, and there's no scripture to support your 'twisted' theory.

If Moses had a change of body, then why Michael the archangel had to dispute with satan for Moses' body?

And scripture read, the dead in Christ shall rise first and the living and remain in Christ, together will be 'changed', not the patriarchs of Israel.

Now you have to stand back a bit and examine your 'fallacy', and no thank you.

Your 'pretty loose gas' have left behind a very 'foul smell' in the room, best you get back to your 'quiethinking'.

Sorry friends, Jesus said, 'You cannot give what is good to dogs, nor cast your pearls to swine.'

And that's what am getting in return, being 'bitten' and my pearls 'trampled' on.

It appears you are quick to misunderstand and quick to accuse Fred and I am sorry for that.
As I'm reading your stuff here a presentation by Brian Zahnd comes to mind. You might be curious and watch it.

 

[Rita]

Doing a study on revelation with my son and it states in the notes that the 24 relate to each leader of the 12tribes in the OT and the 12 apostles in the NT . This also shows a completeness, unity between the old and the new in Heaven as they were all untied in humility and worship. When you consider how the disciples argued about which would sit where and all the issues that a rose between the tribes at times. In heaven there will be no division.

 

[keithr]

Let's begin, for these 24 elders in Heaven are probably the 'patriarchs of Israel', do you all agree or disagree?

I disagree.

I believe that the 24 elders are representative (symbolic) of the resurrected Church.

Revelation 4:4 WEB

(4) Around the throne were twenty-four thrones. On the thrones were twenty-four elders sitting, dressed in white garments, with crowns of gold on their heads.​

They are elders, i.e. they are human, and are sitting on thrones and wearing gold crowns, meaning that they are kings in God's Kingdom. They are dressed in white, symbolising purity. (They are not angels for they are distinguished from them in Revelation 5:11 & 7:11.)

Revelation 5:8-10 WEB

(8) Now when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.​

(9) They sang a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,​

(10) and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth.”​

The elders say that Jesus was killed (like a sacrificial lamb) in order to buy them with his shed blood, i.e. to redeem them, so they must be humans and they must be Christians. They are symolically shown to have the prayers of the saints (i.e. they are Christians). They are from every "tribe, language, people, and nation", so they are not Jews and cannot be symbolic of Jews nor their patriarchs; they are symbolic of Christians. Only Christians are promised that they will be made "kings and priests to our God" and that they "will reign on the earth" - 1 Peter 2:9 (WEB):

(9) But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that you may proclaim the excellence of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:​

A royal priesthood means that they are both kings and priests, and they are "a people for God’s own possession" because Jesus bought them for God (verse 9 above).

Revelation 2:26 WEB

(26) He who overcomes, and he who keeps my works to the end, to him I will give authority over the nations.​

2 Timothy 2:12 WEB

(12) If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us.​

1 Corinthians 4:8 UASV+

(8) Have you already been made full? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings.​

Only Christians are given the opportunity of becomig joint heirs with Jesus, and sharing in his reign over God's coming Kingdom - Romans 8:16-17,29 WEB

(16) The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God;​

(17) and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.​

(29) For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.​

 

[Rockerduck]

Jesus did not have a change of body, because the tomb was found 'empty', and He rose and ascended in the same body.

You have not quoted any supporting scripture, even to Elijah, Enoch and Moses had a change of body.

'Transfiguration' meaning, His 'same face' now did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light.

Scripture read that Elijah was 'taken up' in the same body, and there's no scripture to support your 'twisted' theory.

If Moses had a change of body, then why Michael the archangel had to dispute with satan for Moses' body?

And scripture read, the dead in Christ shall rise first and the living and remain in Christ, together will be 'changed', not the patriarchs of Israel.

Now you have to stand back a bit and examine your 'fallacy', and no thank you.

Your 'pretty loose gas' have left behind a very 'foul smell' in the room, best you get back to your 'quiethinking'.

Sorry friends, Jesus said, 'You cannot give what is good to dogs, nor cast your pearls to swine.'

And that's what am getting in return, being 'bitten' and my pearls 'trampled' on.

Jesus has and did change His appearance several times after His resurrection and does when I see Jesus in visions. John 21:12 - Jesus said to them, “Come and eat breakfast.” Yet none of the disciples dared ask Him, “Who are You?”—knowing that it was the Lord.
Jesus changes His appearance, and you will not know Him if you see Him on the street. Jesus made a personal appearance to me; He did not introduce Himself and I did not recognize Him, but after, I knew it was the Lord.

John 8:59 - Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. How did He pass through the midst of them?

Luke 24:15-16 - So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them. 16 But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him.

Mary thought Jesus was the gardener,

 

[keithr]

Doing a study on revelation with my son and it states in the notes that the 24 relate to each leader of the 12tribes in the OT and the 12 apostles in the NT . This also shows a completeness, unity between the old and the new in Heaven as they were all untied in humility and worship. When you consider how the disciples argued about which would sit where and all the issues that a rose between the tribes at times. In heaven there will be no division.

I believe that the number twenty-four is a reference to the 24 courses of the Old Testament priesthood. The priests were divided into twenty-four groups and these each took a turn at performing the temple priestly duties. So the fact that there are twenty-four elders indicates that they were priests as well as being kings. Albert Barnes' Notes on Revelation 4:4 says:

As to the reason why the number “twenty-four” is mentioned, perhaps nothing certain can be determined. Ezekiel, in his vision Ezk_8:16; Ezk_11:1, saw twenty-five men between the porch and the altar, with their backs toward the temple, and their faces toward the earth - supposed to be representations of the twenty-four “courses” into which the body of priests was divided 1 Chr. 24:3-19, with the high priest among them, making up the number twenty-five. It is possible that John in this vision may have designed to refer to the church considered as a priesthood (compare the notes on 1Pe_2:9), and to have alluded to the fact that the priesthood under the Jewish economy was divided into twenty-four courses, each with a presiding officer, and who was a representative of that portion of the priesthood over which he presided. If so, then the ideas which enter into the representation are these:​

​

(a) That the whole church may be represented as a priesthood, or a community of priests - an idea which frequently occurs in the New Testament.​

​

(b) That the church, as such a community of priests, is employed in the praise and worship of God - an idea, also, which finds abundant countenance in the New Testament.​

​

(c) That, in a series of visions having a designed reference to the church, it was natural to introduce some symbol or emblem representing the church, and representing the fact that this is its office and employment. And,​

​

(d) that this would be well expressed by an allusion derived from the ancient dispensation - the division of the priesthood into classes, over each one of which there presided an individual who might be considered as the representative of his class.​

​

It is to be observed, indeed, that in one respect they are represented as” kings,” but still this does not forbid the supposition that there might have been intermingled also another idea, that they were also “priests.” Thus, the two ideas are blended by these same elders in Rev_5:10; “And hath made us unto our God kings and priests.” Thus understood, the vision is designed to denote the fact that the representatives of the church, ultimately to be triumphant, are properly engaged in ascribing praise to God. The word “elders” here seems to be used in the sense of aged and venerable men, rather than as denoting office. They were such as by their age were qualified to preside over the different divisions of the priesthood.​

 

[The PuP]

The 24 elders and the 4 beasts are both part of the creation, in need of redemption. I.e., everyone and everything cursed with death. The four faces of redemption are found in the account of the flood: Man, beasts(of which the lion is the epitome), every thing that creeps upon the earth (epitomized by the calf) and the fowls of the air (epitomized by the eagle). These 4 are the "kings" of the redemptive world. They are very similar to those seen by Ezekiel. Having 6 wings instead of 4 is indicative of their Redemption. They were most likely the cherubim of Adam's day. To be continued.

 

[The PuP]

The 24 elders and the 4 beasts are both part of the creation, in need of redemption. I.e., everyone and everything cursed with death. The four faces of redemption are found in the account of the flood: Man, beasts(of which the lion is the epitome), every thing that creeps upon the earth (epitomized by the calf) and the fowls of the air (epitomized by the eagle). These 4 are the "kings" of the redemptive world. They are very similar to those seen by Ezekiel. Having 6 wings instead of 4 is indicative of their Redemption. They were most likely the cherubim of Adam's day. To be continued.

The 24 elders "have been redeemed to God".

Rev 5:9 KJV And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

It doesn't mean that they are from every sort of people and nation. Other version make that clear. There are far more than 24 nations or kinds, or tongues, or tribes of people.

Rev 5:9 ISV They sang a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered. With your blood you purchased people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

They refer to themselves as priests[of God], even as the 4 beasts refer to themselves as kings...the epitome's of redemption. If you search the scriptures you will find that only 24 men are known to have served in the office of the high priest from the tribe of Levi. 22 of them are listed in Aaron's genealogy found in 1Chr 6. The other 2 served jointly with Zadok (a rightful descendent of Aaron) during the times of Saul and David. (Note: Solomon returned the priesthood back solely to Zadok when he became king. ) Those other two were Ahimelech and Abiathar.

Because these 24 men are said to have been redeemed, they are unquestionably humans who formerly served as high priest and died... and now redeemed. Because the prophetic history of the world is typified in one years worth of the biblical feasts (from passover to tabernacles), so too does the 24 men who represent the course of the priests. Therefore, it is highly likely that these 24 elders are the 24 men who served as high priests under the mosaic covenant. I'll leave you this to ponder, when does the redemption of the 4 beasts and 24 elders take place?
Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[FaithWillDo]

Friends, it's been daunting in my mind about this subject, and will not mislead anyone who participates, into falsehood.

To Al-Mighty GOD alone be all Honor, Glory and Praise in Jesus Mighty name for ever and ever. Amen.

Let's begin, for these 24 elders in Heaven are probably the 'patriarchs of Israel', do you all agree or disagree?

Is there any Biblical reference it is them and they have been taken up already?

And do the 'patriarchs' of the Old Testament result to 24 of them by count?

We read 'Enoch' and 'Elijah' were taken up alive in the same 'body', and too 'Moses', who with 'Elijah' appeared to meet Jesus in the New Testament

When scripture in the New Testament read, 'Flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of GOD'.

Salvation for the remission of sins was achieved in the New Testament.

And at the 'first resurrection', the dead in Christ shall rise and the living and remain, shall be 'changed' to the Heavenly body before 'taken up'.

'For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of GOD', for the 'patriarchs of Israel' are included too.

Let's reason, 'Enoch' was 'taken up' when the Law not given yet and sin is not recorded, therefore his body not included in sin and death.

But 'Elijah' was during the time of the Law and sin is being recorded, including his, how come 'bodily defiled', he's 'taken up'?

Probably exempted because the Law have daily rituals, where an Israelite's remission of sins is paid at the end of day, and he have complied.

Hence, satan and the angel of 'death' have no power over his 'body' and 'soul' since his sins are forgiven and taken away for the day.

Therefore when he's taken up his 'body' and 'soul' have been found 'pure' by chance, another way to put it, if i may?

Thank you and shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

Dear Fred J,
Christ's New Covenant teachings are taught using "spirit" words (John 6:63). Spirit words carry meanings that are different than how man's wisdom defines them (1Cor 2:13).

The number 2 and number 12 are spirit words. The number 2 means the witness of God. In this world, they are the converted Elect. The number 12 means the Kingdom of Heaven. The spirit word "24 elders" is understood as 2 x 12 which means that the 24 elders represent all the Elect who dwell in the Kingdom of Heaven.

When Christ said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, He is talking about the inheritance that the Elect will receive upon their resurrection. At that time, they will have their spiritual bodies and will then rule with Him over the earth (the lost) in the final age.

Also, the first resurrection is talking about the spiritual resurrection that occurs within each Elect person when they are converted. At that time, the believer's state of being will change from the "earth" to "heaven". The earth is where unconverted babes dwell. Heaven is where the converted Elect dwell. The change is not a physical change of location. The change reflects the person's state of being when it changes from being a child of the devil into being a child of God. This is conversion. If a person does not experience the first resurrection before they die, they were not chosen to be one of the Elect and will not receive an inheritance upon their bodily resurrection from the grave that occurs at the end of this age.

Joe

 

[keithr]

Also, the first resurrection is talking about the spiritual resurrection that occurs within each Elect person when they are converted. At that time, the believer's state of being will change from the "earth" to "heaven". The earth is where unconverted babes dwell. Heaven is where the converted Elect dwell. The change is not a physical change of location. The change reflects the person's state of being when it changes from being a child of the devil into being a child of God. This is conversion. If a person does not experience the first resurrection before they die, they were not chosen to be one of the Elect and will not receive an inheritance upon their bodily resurrection from the grave that occurs at the end of this age.

What nonsense! You're not using common sense! No Christian can be resurrected before they die. We follow in the footsteps of our Lord Jesus - note that he was resurrected after he died, not before! Resurrection is an awakening from death; death means a real physical, human body death, not some vague definition on how or what a person thinks at any given point in their life. All Biblical references to the resurrection are about the resurrection of dead people - dead and buried.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 WEB

(13) But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope.​

(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.​

(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.​

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

The first resurrection is a future event, when Jesus will return for the Church, his bride. Those Christians that have died and been sleeping in death for up to 2,000 years, will then be resurrected, all at the same time, and they will immediately be caught up to meet Jesus, and they will spend the rest of eternity with Jesus; so to say that we must experience the first resurrection before we die is clearly contradictory to the Scriptures.

When a person is converted they are begotten again by God; that is not a resurrection.

Acts 24:15 WEB

(15) having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.​

Philippians 3:8-11 WEB

(8) Yes most certainly, and I count all things to be a loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ​

(9) and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;​

(10) that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death;​

(11) if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.​

2 Timothy 2:16-18 WEB

(16) But shun empty chatter, for it will go further in ungodliness,​

(17) and those words will consume like gangrene, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;​

(18) men who have erred concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past, and overthrowing the faith of some.​

 

[FaithWillDo]

What nonsense! You're not using common sense! No Christian can be resurrected before they die. We follow in the footsteps of our Lord Jesus - note that he was resurrected after he died, not before! Resurrection is an awakening from death; death means a real physical, human body death, not some vague definition on how or what a person thinks at any given point in their life. All Biblical references to the resurrection are about the resurrection of dead people - dead and buried.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 WEB

(13) But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope.​

(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.​

(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.​

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

The first resurrection is a future event, when Jesus will return for the Church, his bride. Those Christians that have died and been sleeping in death for up to 2,000 years, will then be resurrected, all at the same time, and they will immediately be caught up to meet Jesus, and they will spend the rest of eternity with Jesus; so to say that we must experience the first resurrection before we die is clearly contradictory to the Scriptures.

When a person is converted they are begotten again by God; that is not a resurrection.

Acts 24:15 WEB

(15) having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.​

Philippians 3:8-11 WEB

(8) Yes most certainly, and I count all things to be a loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ​

(9) and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;​

(10) that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death;​

(11) if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.​

2 Timothy 2:16-18 WEB

(16) But shun empty chatter, for it will go further in ungodliness,​

(17) and those words will consume like gangrene, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;​

(18) men who have erred concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past, and overthrowing the faith of some.​

Dear keithr,
You are confusing the spiritual resurrection with the bodily resurrection from the grave. They are two separate events.

The spiritual process of conversion is what gives a new birth to an individual. Conversion will cause a spiritually dead person (all mankind) to become a spiritually alive person. This event will happen to all the Elect prior to their physical deaths. In Rev 20:5-6, it calls the conversion of the Elect the "First Resurrection". It is not the same event as the bodily resurrection from the grave which will come at the end of this age.

The spiritual events of the First Resurrection are presented in chapter 19 beginning with the Marriage of the Lamb, followed by the Marriage Supper of the Lamb where Christ feeds His new Bride His "truth" (Bread and New Wine). The Marriage Supper is followed by judgment. This judgment is "like" the Day of the Lord (as Peter said in 2Pet 3:8) but is a little different and it applies only to the Elect. This judgment is called the Thousand Years. The Thousand Years is a spirit word and does not mean a literal amount of time as man's wisdom understands it.

During the Thousand Years, the newly born child of God (the Bride) will reign with Christ over their own judgment. This judgment will remove and destroy all the spiritual impurities within the person so that they are governed solely by the Holy Spirit. This judgment causes the death of the child of the Devil who the person used to be. This judgment is presented in Rev 19:11-21. After the Thousand Years is finished, the person will be converted and will be spiritually resurrected. This spiritual event that just took place within the person is called the First Resurrection. It is synonymous with conversion.

The bodily resurrection from the grave is presented later in Rev 20:11-15.

You should not confuse these two different resurrections as being the same event.

After the bodily resurrection from the grave occurs, the people (the goats) who remain spiritually dead will begin their time of judgment in the Lake of Fire. During this time of judgment, the Elect (the Bride) will reign with Christ a second time. This second time of judgment is also called the Thousand Years.

During both times of the Thousand Years, the Elect will reign with Christ in judgment over the children of the Devil.

This verse applies:

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

During both times of the Thousand Years (twice told), Christ and His Bride will judge the children of the Devil and will see "no good". Also, during both Thousand Years, the children of the Devil will go to "one place" - the Lake of Fire for destruction.

Joe

 

[keithr]

Dear keithr,
You are confusing the spiritual resurrection with the bodily resurrection from the grave. They are two separate events.

That is a false man-made (up) philosophy - it is not Biblical. Show us where in the Bible it mentions anything about a "spiritual resurrection". This is what Paul taught concerning the (one and only) resurrection of Christians - 1 Corinthians 15:35-44 WEB:

(35) But someone will say, “How are the dead raised?” and, “With what kind of body do they come?”​

(36) You foolish one, that which you yourself sow is not made alive unless it dies.​

(37) That which you sow, you don’t sow the body that will be, but a bare grain, maybe of wheat, or of some other kind.​

(38) But God gives it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.​

(39) All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.​

(40) There are also celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial differs from that of the terrestrial.​

(41) There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.​

(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown perishable; it is raised imperishable.​

(43) It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.​

(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.​

​

(50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.​

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

(53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

To be resurrected you must be dead. God will give resurrected Christains a spiritual body - they will not have their decayed human bodies, or dust, changed into a human body.

The spiritual process of conversion is what gives a new birth to an individual. Conversion will cause a spiritually dead person (all mankind) to become a spiritually alive person.

Conversion is not a birth, it is a begetting. The birth is the resurrection from being dead. 1 Peter 1:23 ASV:

(23) having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.​

1 John 3:9 ASV

(9) Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.​

Many translations mistranslate it as born rather than begotten, but the Greek word is the same and has to be interpreted according to the context. A seed is used to beget, not to give birth, and having God's seed abiding in us means that we have not yet been born again! We are not born again until after we have died, as Paul explained above.

This event will happen to all the Elect prior to their physical deaths. In Rev 20:5-6, it calls the conversion of the Elect the "First Resurrection".

No it doesn't! Thee is no mention of conversion in Revelation 20:4-6 (WEB), and it is referring to events after their physical deaths:

(4) I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.​

(5) The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.​

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

Those sitting on the thrones in heaven are the resurrected Church - they have already died and been resurrected, they have already been given an immortal spirit body so that they can no longer die ("Over these, the second death has no power").

The spiritual events of the First Resurrection are presented in chapter 19 beginning with the Marriage of the Lamb, followed by the Marriage Supper of the Lamb where Christ feeds His new Bride His "truth" (Bread and New Wine).

You're adding to the Word of God. It does not say that.

The Marriage Supper is followed by judgment.

It does not mention judgement. It is describing the start of God's reign:

Revelation 19:6 WEB

(6) I heard something like the voice of a great multitude, and like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of mighty thunders, saying, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns!​

Revelation 19:15 WEB

(15) Out of his mouth proceeds a sharp, double-edged sword, that with it he should strike the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod. He treads the wine press of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.​

The Greek word poimainō is translated as 'rule', but literally it should be translated as he will be their shepherd. Strong's says it means "to tend as a shepherd", and the Mounce Concise Greek-English Disctionary says "to feed, pasture, tend a flock". Darby more correctly translates it as:

(15) And out of his mouth goes a sharp two-edged sword, that with it he might smite the nations; and he shall shepherd them with an iron rod; and he treads the wine-press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.​

The chapter ends describing a war between the beast and his false prophet, and those that they had deceived, who came up against the Messiah and his army. The Messiah of course wins the war.

This judgment is called the Thousand Years. The Thousand Years is a spirit word and does not mean a literal amount of time as man's wisdom understands it.

This war occurs before (or at the beginning) the 1,000 years of Christ's reign. The words "thousand years" is not "a spirit word". It is literally referring to a period of 1,000 years.

During the Thousand Years, the newly born child of God (the Bride) will reign with Christ over their own judgment. This judgment will remove and destroy all the spiritual impurities within the person so that they are governed solely by the Holy Spirit. This judgment causes the death of the child of the Devil who the person used to be. This judgment is presented in Rev 19:11-21. After the Thousand Years is finished, the person will be converted and will be spiritually resurrected. This spiritual event that just took place within the person is called the First Resurrection. It is synonymous with conversion.

I've never read such nonsense before! Judges don't judge themselves! Paul tells us that we will judge the world (of mankind) and angels - 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 WEB:

(2) Don’t you know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?​

(3) Don’t you know that we will judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?​

and Jesus said to his twelve disciples, Matthew 19:28 WEB:

(28) Jesus said to them, “Most certainly I tell you that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on the throne of his glory, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

Nowhere is it mentioned that the saints will judge themselves or each other.

This is going off on a tangent from this topic (the "24 elders in heaven"), so I think enough has been said on your unusual misunderstandings of Scripture. I'll stop discussing it with you now.

 

[Davy]

Friends, it's been daunting in my mind about this subject, and will not mislead anyone who participates, into falsehood.

To Al-Mighty GOD alone be all Honor, Glory and Praise in Jesus Mighty name for ever and ever. Amen.

Let's begin, for these 24 elders in Heaven are probably the 'patriarchs of Israel', do you all agree or disagree?

Is there any Biblical reference it is them and they have been taken up already?

And do the 'patriarchs' of the Old Testament result to 24 of them by count?

We read 'Enoch' and 'Elijah' were taken up alive in the same 'body', and too 'Moses', who with 'Elijah' appeared to meet Jesus in the New Testament

When scripture in the New Testament read, 'Flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of GOD'.

Salvation for the remission of sins was achieved in the New Testament.

And at the 'first resurrection', the dead in Christ shall rise and the living and remain, shall be 'changed' to the Heavenly body before 'taken up'.

'For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of GOD', for the 'patriarchs of Israel' are included too.

Let's reason, 'Enoch' was 'taken up' when the Law not given yet and sin is not recorded, therefore his body not included in sin and death.

But 'Elijah' was during the time of the Law and sin is being recorded, including his, how come 'bodily defiled', he's 'taken up'?

Probably exempted because the Law have daily rituals, where an Israelite's remission of sins is paid at the end of day, and he have complied.

Hence, satan and the angel of 'death' have no power over his 'body' and 'soul' since his sins are forgiven and taken away for the day.

Therefore when he's taken up his 'body' and 'soul' have been found 'pure' by chance, another way to put it, if i may?

Thank you and shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

Not good to isolate the 24 elders away from those Revelation 3 & 4 Chapters that contain more info about them which defines what TIMING that is speaking about.

Rev 4:4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
KJV

Christ's servants receive their rewards only at the time of Lord Jesus future 2nd coming. That is when His elect will reign with Him with those crowns.

Rev 4:10-11
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before Him That sat on the throne, and worship Him That liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are and were created."
KJV

Rev 5:8-10
8 And when He had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV

That time of redemption only happens at Lord Jesus' FUTURE 2nd coming. That is when His elect shall reign on the earth with Him per The Old Testament prophets.

Thus those 24 elders MIGHT means 12 Patriarchs/prophets, and 12 Apostles, but we do not yet know for sure. We are not told yet who they, so all else is just speculation.

 

[FaithWillDo]

That is a false man-made (up) philosophy - it is not Biblical. Show us where in the Bible it mentions anything about a "spiritual resurrection".

This is going off on a tangent from this topic (the "24 elders in heaven"), so I think enough has been said on your unusual misunderstandings of Scripture. I'll stop discussing it with you now.

Dear keithr,
Scripture is written in "another language". This language uses spirit words which have meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches. Since babes are spiritually blind, they cannot understand this language - and purposefully so.

Due to a babe's inability to understand the spiritual teachings of the New Covenant, they will fall prey to Satan and will become apostate.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

Falling away has happened to all the babes who have entered the church since Paul's departing. (Acts 20:29-31).

I will now respond to one of your comments.

You said:

To be resurrected you must be dead.

That is a true statement and applies to both the spiritual resurrection and the bodily resurrection from the grave.

Consider this scripture below:

John 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

In Christ's conversation with Martha, Martha is speaking of the bodily resurrection from the grave. However, when Christ responds to her, He is speaking about the spiritual resurrection (the First Resurrection).

Here is how I know this:

When a person is converted, they will have faith and will believe in Christ. This happens while the person is physically alive. After the person is converted, they will then be spiritually resurrected (First Resurrection). At that time, they will go from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive.

In verse 26, Christ says to Martha that after a person has been made spiritually alive and believes, the person will never die. That is true because a converted person can never spiritually die again after having been converted due to Christ's sacrifice on the cross. If Christ was speaking of being "physically" alive and believing, His statement about the person never dying would be false. Why? Because all believers who make a confession of faith are going to still physically die someday.

I experienced the First Resurrection in 2005. That is when I was spiritually resurrected and began believing in Christ. At that time, I was physically alive. But since physical death was passed down from Adam, I know that I am still going to physically die someday. That is true in spite of having just been made spiritually alive by Christ.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Because I am going to physically die someday, I still need the bodily resurrection from the grave so that I don't perish.

Can you now see that there is a spiritual resurrection and a bodily resurrection?

Consider this: When a converted believer is bodily resurrected from the grave, their name will be found in the Lamb's book of Life because they are spiritually alive. For the people who are not converted and who remain spiritually dead, their names will not be found in the book of Life. This is true because they were never made spiritually alive by experiencing the First Resurrection before they physically died.

Since you no longer want to continue our discussion, there is no need for you to respond.

Joe

 

[Davy]

Dear keithr,
Scripture is written in "another language". This language uses spirit words which have meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches. Since babes are spiritually blind, they cannot understand this language - and purposefully so.

Due to a babe's inability to understand the spiritual teachings of the New Covenant, they will fall prey to Satan and will become apostate.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

Falling away has happened to all the babes who have entered the church since Paul's departing. (Acts 20:29-31).

I will now respond to one of your comments.

You said:

To be resurrected you must be dead.

That is a true statement and applies to both the spiritual resurrection and the bodily resurrection from the grave.

Consider this scripture below:

John 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

In Christ's conversation with Martha, Martha is speaking of the bodily resurrection from the grave. However, when Christ responds to her, He is speaking about the spiritual resurrection (the First Resurrection).

Here is how I know this:

When a person is converted, they will have faith and will believe in Christ. This happens while the person is physically alive. After the person is converted, they will then be spiritually resurrected (First Resurrection). At that time, they will go from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive.

In verse 26, Christ says to Martha that after a person has been made spiritually alive and believes, the person will never die. That is true because a converted person can never spiritually die again after having been converted due to Christ's sacrifice on the cross. If Christ was speaking of being "physically" alive and believing, His statement about the person never dying would be false. Why? Because all believers who make a confession of faith are going to still physically die someday.

I experienced the First Resurrection in 2005. That is when I was spiritually resurrected and began believing in Christ. At that time, I was physically alive. But since physical death was passed down from Adam, I know that I am still going to physically die someday. That is true in spite of having just been made spiritually alive by Christ.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Because I am going to physically die someday, I still need the bodily resurrection from the grave so that I don't perish.

Can you now see that there is a spiritual resurrection and a bodily resurrection?

Consider this: When a converted believer is bodily resurrected from the grave, their name will be found in the Lamb's book of Life because they are spiritually alive. For the people who are not converted and who remain spiritually dead, their names will not be found in the book of Life. This is true because they were never made spiritually alive by experiencing the First Resurrection before they physically died.

Since you no longer want to continue our discussion, there is no need for you to respond.

Joe

I don't know where... in the world you are getting your interpretation of the "first resurrection", but what you are saying ain't... it.

The "first resurrection" is about the one taught in Revelation 20. It is about the FUTURE LITERAL RESURRECTION that will only occur on the day of Christ's future coming...

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

Now there was... a partial resurrection of 'some' of the saints on the day of Christ's death on the cross. But that was not the final resurrection that is still yet to happen on the day of Christ's future coming.

Thus Apostle Paul only 'hinted' to the idea of 'spiritual' raised, like in Romans 6, but never to mean a literal resurrection. When Paul spoke of the resurrection, he always referred to the future resurrection on the day of Christ's future return.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I don't know where... in the world you are getting your interpretation of the "first resurrection", but what you are saying ain't... it.

The "first resurrection" is about the one taught in Revelation 20. It is about the FUTURE LITERAL RESURRECTION that will only occur on the day of Christ's future coming...

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

Now there was... a partial resurrection of 'some' of the saints on the day of Christ's death on the cross. But that was not the final resurrection that is still yet to happen on the day of Christ's future coming.

Thus Apostle Paul only 'hinted' to the idea of 'spiritual' raised, like in Romans 6, but never to mean a literal resurrection. When Paul spoke of the resurrection, he always referred to the future resurrection on the day of Christ's future return.

Dear Davy,
The spirit phrase "last day" is when the spiritual resurrection occurs within a person. The spiritual resurrection is the First Resurrection.

The First Resurrection is also said to occur when the "end of the ages" comes upon a person:

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the end of the ages are come.

The "end of the ages" comes upon a person when they are being converted. If the person is one of the Elect, the end of the ages will come to them before they physically die.

The verse you quoted from John 6:40 is not a teaching on the bodily resurrection from the grave. The bodily resurrection from the grave occurs at the literal of this age and does not occur on the "last day".

If the First Resurrection which is being taught in Rev 20:5-6 is the bodily resurrection from the grave, then what do you believe is the resurrection that is shown in verses 11-15 of that same chapter? Are they the same event? Certainly not.

The First Resurrection is the spiritual resurrection and the resurrection shown in verses 11-15 is the bodily resurrection of all mankind - including the Elect. Those who "stand" before the throne are the sheep/Elect. They can stand before the throne because they are converted and have experienced the First Resurrection. The goats are the ones who did not experience the First Resurrection and who will not be found in the book of Life.

You are missing the truth of Christ's spiritual teachings - most of which are teaching on the spiritual events that led up to a person's moment of conversion. The moment of conversion is the First Resurrection and it occurs on the last day.

If a person does not experience the First Resurrection, the last day and the end of the ages prior to their physical death, they will not be found in the Lamb's book of Life. They will be resurrected to judgment because they are still spiritually dead.

Joe

 

[Fred J]

Dear Fred J,
Christ's New Covenant teachings are taught using "spirit" words (John 6:63). Spirit words carry meanings that are different than how man's wisdom defines them (1Cor 2:13).

The number 2 and number 12 are spirit words. The number 2 means the witness of God. In this world, they are the converted Elect. The number 12 means the Kingdom of Heaven. The spirit word "24 elders" is understood as 2 x 12 which means that the 24 elders represent all the Elect who dwell in the Kingdom of Heaven.

When Christ said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, He is talking about the inheritance that the Elect will receive upon their resurrection. At that time, they will have their spiritual bodies and will then rule with Him over the earth (the lost) in the final age.

Also, the first resurrection is talking about the spiritual resurrection that occurs within each Elect person when they are converted. At that time, the believer's state of being will change from the "earth" to "heaven". The earth is where unconverted babes dwell. Heaven is where the converted Elect dwell. The change is not a physical change of location. The change reflects the person's state of being when it changes from being a child of the devil into being a child of God. This is conversion. If a person does not experience the first resurrection before they die, they were not chosen to be one of the Elect and will not receive an inheritance upon their bodily resurrection from the grave that occurs at the end of this age.

Joe

i disagree...

For when 'Enoch' and 'Elijah' were taken up to Heaven, they did not have a change of body.

i believe the 'patriarchs of Israel', together with Enoch and Elijah, are already there in Heaven as the 24 elders.

The scripture specifically writes, only the dead in Christ shall rise and those who are living and remain, together they'll be 'changed' before taken up.

Apparently it's referring to those after Christ who is the 'firstfruit of resurrection', whom will be taken at the 'first resurrection'.

Not the 'patriarchs of Israel', sorry no thank you, and GOD bless you in Jesus name.

 

[FaithWillDo]

i disagree...

For when 'Enoch' and 'Elijah' were taken up to Heaven, they did not have a change of body.

i believe the 'patriarchs of Israel', together with Enoch and Elijah, are already there in Heaven as the 24 elders.

The scripture specifically writes, only the dead in Christ shall rise and those who are living and remain, together they'll be 'changed' before taken up.

Apparently it's referring to those after Christ who is the 'firstfruit of resurrection', whom will be taken at the 'first resurrection'.

Not the 'patriarchs of Israel', sorry no thank you, and GOD bless you in Jesus name.

Dear FredJ,
To believe that Enoch and Elijah never died is to deny many other teachings of scripture.

Scripture teaches that death passed down from Adam to all men and that includes both Enoch and Elijah who were sinners just like all of Adam and Eve's offspring are.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

If Enoch and Elijah never died because of their sins, then this scripture is wrong, too:

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Enoch and Elijah are both in the grave waiting for the "better resurrection" that the OT faithful will receive at the end of this age.

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Because the OT faithful were justified by their faith, they will experience a better resurrection - but that resurrection has not occurred yet. When it does, the OT faithful will be made "perfect" by Christ's work of conversion with the help of the Elect.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Paul even says that Christ is the firstborn from the dead so that He will have preeminence in all things.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

At this time, Christ is the only person who has been bodily resurrected from the grave. Everyone else is dead and in the grave just as Paul explained in 1Thes 4:13-18. Paul told the Thessalonians to comfort one another with the hope of the coming resurrection from the grave. If anyone was already resurrected from the grave and in heaven, Paul would have said so in that portion of scripture.

You said:
For when 'Enoch' and 'Elijah' were taken up to Heaven, they did not have a change of body.

Your statement above is contradicted by this scripture:

1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

If Enoch and Elijah did not have a change of body, how can they be in the Kingdom of Heaven since they would still have bodies of corruption (flesh and blood)?

The bottom line is that Enoch and Elijah were both sinners. And because of their sins, they both died like all sinners do. To this day, they remain in the grave waiting for the bodily resurrection with the other OT faithful who likewise died.

Joe