24 elders in Heaven

[ElieG12]

Friends, it's been daunting in my mind about this subject, and will not mislead anyone who participates, into falsehood.

To Al-Mighty GOD alone be all Honor, Glory and Praise in Jesus Mighty name for ever and ever. Amen.

Let's begin, for these 24 elders in Heaven are probably the 'patriarchs of Israel', do you all agree or disagree?

Is there any Biblical reference it is them and they have been taken up already?

And do the 'patriarchs' of the Old Testament result to 24 of them by count?

We read 'Enoch' and 'Elijah' were taken up alive in the same 'body', and too 'Moses', who with 'Elijah' appeared to meet Jesus in the New Testament

When scripture in the New Testament read, 'Flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of GOD'.

Salvation for the remission of sins was achieved in the New Testament.

And at the 'first resurrection', the dead in Christ shall rise and the living and remain, shall be 'changed' to the Heavenly body before 'taken up'.

'For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of GOD', for the 'patriarchs of Israel' are included too.

Let's reason, 'Enoch' was 'taken up' when the Law not given yet and sin is not recorded, therefore his body not included in sin and death.

But 'Elijah' was during the time of the Law and sin is being recorded, including his, how come 'bodily defiled', he's 'taken up'?

Probably exempted because the Law have daily rituals, where an Israelite's remission of sins is paid at the end of day, and he have complied.

Hence, satan and the angel of 'death' have no power over his 'body' and 'soul' since his sins are forgiven and taken away for the day.

Therefore when he's taken up his 'body' and 'soul' have been found 'pure' by chance, another way to put it, if i may?

Thank you and shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

The Bible teaches that Jesus was the first to be raised from the dead to live in heaven. In fact, we are told that he was the one who opened the door to that place for human beings, who must die and be resurrected in a different form in order to enter the place where the spirits dwell. This means that no one before Jesus could be ascended to heaven.

So, if the 24 elders refer to a group of resurrected humans, they can only be humans who lived after Jesus.

Rev. 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.”
To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

... 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.

The number 24 may be symbolic of a larger group. For example, in the service of the priests in the temple, there were 24 divisions that divided the service at certain times, and so all the Levitical priests took turns serving there (1 Chron. 24:4; Luke 1:5,8,9). This may be the reference and meaning of the number 24 of the elders in heaven: a representation of all the priests who serve in God's temple in heaven.

 

[Davy]

@Davy can I suggest next time you quote one Scripture (just one!) that you feel supports your immortal soul, body in heaven theology.

There's that MOCKING again here with those who LACK PROPER MANNERS.


If you were so SURE I was NOT staying with the actual written Bible Scripture, why didn't you POST THE SCRIPTURE REFERENCES I GAVE?

Nah, you wouldn't do that, because it would EXPOSE YOU AS A FRAUD! just as my previous post of Eccl.12:5-7 and Matt.10:28 did.

 

[FaithWillDo]

@FaithWillDo, let me ask you something.

Now I might not particularly see (or agree) with everything you have laid out for us but I am curious according to the patern you have set it forth how you could work in the verses I posted below. At least according to what/or how you might be comparing/seeing/or understanding this seven spirits more wicked than the first. Or perhaps just their particular workings in the man presented to us (which is of that wicked generation) and what makes the state of that man/ or this wicked generation worse than the first.

Dear Truly,
I will respond to the scriptures you quoted, but before I do, I want to make two important points that may help with your understanding:

1). The writers of all the NT letters were writing to converted believers (saints/Elect) and to unconverted babes (called to be saints/the faithful).

The converted believers had been given the Early & Latter Rains, followed by judgment. The unconverted babes had only been given the Early Rain.

A babe has no ability on their own to mature themselves into a child who no longer draws milk. Only Christ can cause that to happen. Christ does it by giving a babe the Latter Rain, followed by judgment. Only after a babe is converted will they become a "little child" who no longer draws milk and has entered the Kingdom of Heaven (Mat 18:3).

This change from a babe to a little child is expressed another way in scripture by describing where the person dwells. A babe is said to dwell on the earth and converted believers are said to dwell in heaven. And just so you know, unbelievers are said to dwell in the sea.

These dwelling places reflect a person's spiritual state of being. When a person changes dwelling places, it is not a literal change of locations even though scripture presents the change that way.

Here is an example of when a babe is being converted and goes from dwelling on the earth to dwelling in heaven:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here is another verse:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Here are some examples that show the TWO groups of believers that the NT letters were addressed to:

Col 1:2 To the saints (converted Elect) and faithful (babes) brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: ...

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints (converted Elect) which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful (babes) in Christ Jesus

1Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints (babes),

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints (babes):

Sometimes the writers would address their letters simply to the "church" which can be both groups. However, most of the teachings in the letters were written for the babes.

2). At the time the letters were written to the churches, the spirit of anti-Christ had not yet consumed the babes (for the most part). The babes were remaining faithful and were justified by that faith. However, they remained carnally minded and spiritually blind. They had a great deal of difficulty understanding the spiritual teachings being explained in the letters - but because of their faith, they remained in the church.

However, by the end of the 1st century, the apostasy quickly began consuming the churches that had been started by the very Elect. The babes in the churches quickly fell from grace and were no longer faithful as they waited for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain. At that time, some of the "perverse things" that Paul said was coming into the church (Acts 20:29-31) would start being taught and accepted by the babes.

This parable shows the process of how a babe accepts the false teachings of Satan:

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

All the "Kingdom of Heaven is like" parables are teaching certain aspects of the pathway to salvation that leads an Elect person to their moment of conversion. This parable teaches the portion of the pathway that shows how a babe accepts Satan's false doctrines.

In the parable, the woman represents the marred & carnal spirit of a babe. In scripture, she has many names, one of which is the Great Harlot. The parable begins with the babe's Great Harlot taking leaven (lies) from an unknown person. This person is the spirit of anti-Christ that is indwelling the babe. The woman then secretly mixes the leaven into 3 measures of meal until the whole loaf is leavened. The number three is a spirit word that represents a spiritual process is taking place. The meal represents the truth of Christ. The loaf that she makes is very deceptive because the loaf still has elements of truth in it. But since the women "hid" the leaven in the meal, the person who consumes the bread won't know that it is in there. After the loaf is made, the Great Harlot will feed the leavened bread to the mind of the babe which is where it will be consumed. The end result for the babe is they they are now following the false teachings of Satan rather than the truth of Jesus Christ.

Because all the babes in the church around the end of the 1st century consumed this leaven loaf of bread, they started following Satan's "another gospel" which mixes works with faith. When a babe accepts this false gospel, they are committing the one and only sin that leads to their spiritual death. After they commit this sin, they are no longer justified by faith and are no longer in Christ's church. They are so deceived by Satan that they think they are following Christ and his ways but are actually following Satan and his ways. It is this type of person who is in all the churches of the world.

Every babe will experience their own time of great tribulation in Satan's church. No one can avoid it.

John says this about apostate babes:

1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I'm sorry I went on so long with this post and never made it to your scriptures. I will make a second post in which I will address the scriptures you presented.

Joe

 

[Davy]

For others here who hold to the false teaching of immortal soulism Ecclesiastes goes on in the same verse to make it abundantly clear!

“Before the pitcher is shattered at the spring”

It is easy... to tell that Hiddenthings is STUCK on the idea of MATERIALISM and the things of THIS world, and not about things of The SPIRIT.

The Ecclesiastes 12:6 reference to an earthen-ware pitcher made of clay is being used as a SYMBOL for our flesh body, which is represented in God's Word as being made up of CLAY (Isa.45:9, etc.). So that part is NOT a reference to the mentioned "spirit" part in verse 7 that goes back to God.

“Or the wheel broken at the well”

Alludes to the mechanism used to draw water, often a wheel that lifts a bucket or skin from the well. Once the wheel is broken, the process of drawing water must stop!

These vivid metaphors symbolize the human body. More specifically, the imagery may be interpreted as follows:

• The silver cord represents the spinal cord
• The golden bowl symbolizes the head or skull
• The pitcher may represent the kidneys
• The wheel is suggestive of the heart, which draws and circulates blood, much like lifting water from a well.

The message is clear: when any of these essential parts of the body fail, the entire system quickly breaks down and life ends.

I wouldn't go so far with that speculation. The Ecclesiastes 12:5-6 Scripture doesn't say specifically what each object represents as a certain part of the flesh body. That's your adding... to that Scripture.

But it is about the flesh body dying.

@Davy, here's a free lesson for you: Always read Scripture in context, and consider the original audience, who often understood the poetic imagery far better than we do today.

Whatever you do, don’t impose false ideas onto the Word, because when the true interpretation comes to light, it makes the error painfully obvious and deeply unconvincing.

OH NO! Hiddenthings FAILED TO CONTINUE THE ECCLESIASTES 12:5-7 SCRIPTURE!

Is there something there Hiddenthings DOES NOT AGREE WITH ABOUT FLESH DEATH? Yes, no doubt...

Eccl 12:6-7
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
KJV

WOW! All Hiddenthings accomplished with his post is a MOCKING against ME PERSONALLY WHILE REJECTING THE ABOVE VERSES AS WRITTEN!

Why didn't he cover that part above about the "silver cord" I had mentioned before?

Why didn't he cover that part about the dust returning to the earth where it came from, in contrast to our "spirit" that goes back to God Who gave it?


The reality is, Hiddenthing's advice is COUNTER to proper Biblical advice from God's written Word. He intead reveals that he believes in man's FALSE DOCTRINE called Soul Sleep, which is a JEWISH tradition based on their MATERIALISM ideas about the Soul. Thus it looks like other Jewish brethren here on the forum have called yet another one of their blind Jewish brothers to come and testify falseness against God's written Word.

That means Hiddenthings ALSO BELONGS ON MY IGNORE LIST.

 

[Hiddenthings]

There's that MOCKING again here with those who LACK PROPER MANNERS.


If you were so SURE I was NOT staying with the actual written Bible Scripture, why didn't you POST THE SCRIPTURE REFERENCES I GAVE?

Nah, you wouldn't do that, because it would EXPOSE YOU AS A FRAUD! just as my previous post of Eccl.12:5-7 and Matt.10:28 did.

Davy, you have been exposed - accept it, learn from it and move on in Grace.

 

[Hiddenthings]

That means Hiddenthings ALSO BELONGS ON MY IGNORE LIST.

Davy, don’t be upset. Many people in this forum misquote Scripture, but in this case, it was so clear that it has have left you feeling embarrassed. Sounds like this might have happened to you a lot if you have a list of people you ignore.

 

[Davy]

No need to 'babble' a lot, stretching it to even judge me on things i've not said.

It's easy... to know what false doctrine of men you are following, a false pre-trib rapture theory.

Now you think you know about the 'rapture' excellently, therefore quote the scripture where the 'patriarchs of Israel' are included in the rapture?

What? You haven't read what Jesus showed in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man, about Paradise and the two sides in Heaven, with Abraham on one side? You mean you have not read what Jesus said in Luke 20:37-38 where Jesus mentioned God is The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and that God is NOT a God of the dead, but of the LIVING?

Obviously you haven't read 2 Corinthians 5 either where Apostle Paul stated that to be absent from the body (flesh) is to be present with The Lord.

2 Cor 5:6-9
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
KJV

Are you sure you are a Christian? How is it you act like you've never read the above Scriptures?

When Enoch and Elijah are part of the 'patriarch of Israel', who were already 'taken up' to Heaven, to you are they 'asleep' still waiting for the rapture?

Paul's 'asleep' idea is a euphemism for the saints that have already died in Christ. It is NOT meant like they are still in the casket literally asleep.

Enoch and Elijah were taken up and transfigured to the heavenly state. That's why Jesus' flesh body was transfigured on the Mount of Transfiguration, or... haven't you read that New Testament Scripture, because your words suggest you have not?

Just how much of The New Testament have... you actually read?

Stop 'ranting' and 'railing' about things that are not 'relevant', no scripture 'quotes' to refute me, but judge about things i've not said.

Calling me 'SUCKER', seriously very Christian of you?

Those who have latched onto MAN'S FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY are... SUCKERS. They won't listen to Lord Jesus what He showed for when He returns, thus they are SUCKERS for MEN'S FALSE DOCTRINES, and how many of the SUCKERS love it! And I have NOT ONE DOUBT that my Heavenly Father and His Son agrees! You might want to study the Ezekiel 13 Chapter where God showed that He is against those who hunt the souls of His people to make them fly!

 

[Davy]

To you Jesus was made 'a quickening spirit', meaning, He did not have truly a human body?

That's one of YOUR silly unrelated stupid statements that you wrongly accuse ME of.

WHERE have I ever... denied that Jesus had no flesh body?? You only show when you are LOSING a debate, you turn to MAKING UP LIES.

This flesh and blood as to men of sin, and death have power, is 'mortal', besides Jesus' without sin, and death have no power, is 'immortal'.

STILL NOT THE TOPIC that was being discussed.

You are INTENTIONALLY BYPASSING the Scriptures I posted about our "spirit" and "soul" part, and what happens when our flesh body dies.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Davy you can't move forward without acknowledging openly you misquoted Ecclesiastes 12.

This is as much about credibility than admitting truth.

 

[Hiddenthings]

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.KJV

“And the spirit returns to God who gave it.” Humanity is nothing more than dust given life, and at death is destined to return to the dust from which it came (Gen. 2:7; 3:19; Ps. 103:14; Job 10:9; Eccl. 3:18–21)

It's humbling to think it's only the breath in our lungs which keeps us alive.

Do look up the references to see this is correct.

 

[FaithWillDo]

@FaithWillDo, let me ask you something.

Now I might not particularly see (or agree) with everything you have laid out for us but I am curious according to the patern you have set it forth how you could work in the verses I posted below. At least according to what/or how you might be comparing/seeing/or understanding this seven spirits more wicked than the first. Or perhaps just their particular workings in the man presented to us (which is of that wicked generation) and what makes the state of that man/ or this wicked generation worse than the first.

Dear Truly,
The verses you quoted strengthen my understanding.

When a person finds a verse that contradicts their understanding, they have a problem. Sometimes it can be the translation of the verse that is causing the issue but sometimes its the person's understanding of truth. I am always on the look out for contradictions to my understanding when I read scripture. Everyone should be doing the same thing to test their own understanding of truth.

You quoted:
Prov 27:23 Be thou diligent to know the state of thy flocks, and look well to thy herds.

This is what Paul was doing with his church who were made up of mostly babes.

You quoted:
Phil 2:19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.

Paul is again doing the work of a shepherd. The "state" that Paul is hoping to find them in is one of remaining faithful (no works) and following his teachings.

You quoted:
1 Cr 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates #1, envyings #2, wraths #3 strifes #4 backbitings #5 whisperings #6 swellings #7 tumults #8

Paul's list of faults is common with most babes because babes still have a carnal mind. These problems are still common with the apostate babes of today's churches.

The spirit word "eight" represents a new spiritual condition. It can be either be a positive or negative change. A positive change is when a babe is converted and a negative change is when a babe become apostate. I believe the fact that Paul lists eight issues represents that Paul is concerned that his babes might have become apostate while he was away.

You quoted:
2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Peter is talking about babes who fall away and become "worse than the first" just as Christ explained in Mat 12:43-45. But remember, most of the babes in the early churches were remaining faithful at the time Peter wrote his letter.

Paul mentions how a babe becomes apostate in the scripture below:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and age-enduring judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have TASTED of the heavenly gift (Early Rain), and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have TASTED the good word of God (milk), and the powers of the world to come 6 if they shall fall away (mixing works with faith), to renew them again unto repentance (from dead works): seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Paul says that after a babe falls away, they cannot be renewed by repentance. This is true. But what Paul doesn't say is that a fallen away babe can be renewed by Christ giving them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. After they are given the Latter Rain, the babe will repent and become faithful again. This is taught in other scriptures. Remember, Christ teaches His truth "here a little and there a little" (Isa 28:9-12). To understand a full truth, a person must piece together other scriptures on the subject.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

You quoted:
John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

This verse is contained in the story of the healing of the infirmed man who lays by the pool of Bethesda. This event is a physical type that teaches a spiritual truth. The truth that it teaches is the pathway to salvation.

The first healing of the man as he lays by the pool represents the man receiving the Early Rain. With the Early Rain, the man becomes faithful and can rise up (spiritually renewed) and walk by faith. The man rises and Christ tells the man to pick up his bed (he will need it later). At this time, the man doesn't know who healed him. This represents the man's spiritual blindness. Christ does not appear when He gives a person the Early Rain. Christ then withdraws into the crowd and the man is left alone (time of Elijah's drought). Later, Jesus finds the man in the temple (the man is now the temple since he has a small measure of the Spirit). Jesus then warns the man to sin no more (the sin that leads to death, no mixing of works with faith) or a worse thing will happen. The worse thing Christ is referring to is if the man's becomes unfaithful by mixing works with faith. When a babe does this mixing, they will fall from grace and become apostate.

In the next verse quoted below, the man quickly does just that:

John 5:15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.

When the man tells the Jews about Jesus, this is when he becomes a man of sin just like Judas who also betrayed Christ to the Jews. This event represents spiritually fornicating with Satan and following his crooked way instead of the straight way of faith. The worse thing has now happened to the man. The story ends there.

If the story were to continue, it would show the man returning to the pool and laying down on his bed again because his lameness has returned. The people who lay around the pool on their beds with the man represent either mankind in their natural state or those in the apostate church waiting for the Lord's return. Both groups are lost and are condemned by the Law. For those who are Elect and have already been given the Early Rain, when the pool is stirred, they will be given the ability to step into the pool to be healed and converted. The pool represents the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain).

You quoted:
1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers (converted believers of full age), because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men (converted but not spiritually matured), because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Below is the previous verse. It is nearly the same but adds another group of people.

1John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children (G3813) (unconverted babes), because ye have known the Father.

The Greek word "paidion" can be translated as babes/infants and should have been in this case.

I hope this helps. If you have any questions, I would be happy to try and answer them.

Joe

 

[Muna]

Dear Truly,
The verses you quoted strengthen my understanding.

When a person finds a verse that contradicts their understanding, they have a problem. Sometimes it can be the translation of the verse that is causing the issue but sometimes its the person's understanding of truth. I am always on the look out for contradictions to my understanding when I read scripture. Everyone should be doing the same thing to test their own understanding of truth.

You quoted:
Prov 27:23 Be thou diligent to know the state of thy flocks, and look well to thy herds.

This is what Paul was doing with his church who were made up of mostly babes.

You quoted:
Phil 2:19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.

Paul is again doing the work of a shepherd. The "state" that Paul is hoping to find them in is one of remaining faithful (no works) and following his teachings.

You quoted:
1 Cr 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates #1, envyings #2, wraths #3 strifes #4 backbitings #5 whisperings #6 swellings #7 tumults #8

Paul's list of faults is common with most babes because babes still have a carnal mind. These problems are still common with the apostate babes of today's churches.

The spirit word "eight" represents a new spiritual condition. It can be either be a positive or negative change. A positive change is when a babe is converted and a negative change is when a babe become apostate. I believe the fact that Paul lists eight issues represents that Paul is concerned that his babes might have become apostate while he was away.

You quoted:
2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Peter is talking about babes who fall away and become "worse than the first" just as Christ explained in Mat 12:43-45. But remember, most of the babes in the early churches were remaining faithful at the time Peter wrote his letter.

Paul mentions how a babe becomes apostate in the scripture below:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and age-enduring judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have TASTED of the heavenly gift (Early Rain), and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have TASTED the good word of God (milk), and the powers of the world to come 6 if they shall fall away (mixing works with faith), to renew them again unto repentance (from dead works): seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Paul says that after a babe falls away, they cannot be renewed by repentance. This is true. But what Paul doesn't say is that a fallen away babe can be renewed by Christ giving them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. After they are given the Latter Rain, the babe will repent and become faithful again. This is taught in other scriptures. Remember, Christ teaches His truth "here a little and there a little" (Isa 28:9-12). To understand a full truth, a person must piece together other scriptures on the subject.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

You quoted:
John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

This verse is contained in the story of the healing of the infirmed man who lays by the pool of Bethesda. This event is a physical type that teaches a spiritual truth. The truth that it teaches is the pathway to salvation.

The first healing of the man as he lays by the pool represents the man receiving the Early Rain. With the Early Rain, the man become faithful and can rise up (spiritually renewed) and walk by faith. The man rises and Christ tells the man to pick up his bed (he will need it later). At this time, the man doesn't know who healed Him. This represents the man's spiritual blindness. Christ does not appear when He gives a person the Early Rain. Christ then withdraws into the crowd and the man is left alone (time of Elijah's drought). Later, Jesus finds the man in the temple (the man is now the temple since he has a small measure of the Spirit). Jesus then warns the man to sin no more (the sin that leads to death, no mixing of works with faith) or a worse thing will happen. The worse thing Christ is referring to is if the man's becomes unfaithful by mixing works with faith. When a babe does this mixing, they will fall from grace and become apostate.

In the next verse quoted below, the man quickly does just that:

John 5:15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.

When the man tells the Jews about Jesus, this is when he becomes a man of sin just like Judas who also betrayed Christ to the Jews. This event represents spiritually fornicating with Satan and following his crooked way instead of the straight way of faith. The worse thing has now happened to the man. The story ends there.

If the story were to continue, it would show the man returning to the pool and laying down on his bed again because his lameness has returned. The people who lay around the pool on their beds with the man represent either mankind in their natural state or those in the apostate church waiting for the Lord's return. Both groups are lost and are condemned by the Law. For those who are Elect, when the pool is stirred, they will be given the ability to step into the pool to be healed and converted. The pool represents the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain).

You quoted:
1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers (converted believers of full age), because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men (converted but not spiritually matured), because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Below is the previous verse. It is nearly the same but adds another group of people.

1John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children (G3813) (unconverted babes), because ye have known the Father.

The Greek word "paidion" can be translated as babes/infants and should have been in this case.

I hope this helps. If you have any questions, I would be happy to try and answer them.

Joe

Thank you Joe for taking the time to respond to a few of those verses for me it helps me to see how you might work those in a little better and yes, you were very helpful.

 

[Berean]

"Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white [a]robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads." - Revelation 4:4

It should be noted that the 24 elders are found in the following verses in Revelation 4:4, 10, 5:8, 14, 11:16, and 19:4 and individually and collectively unnumbered (5:5, 11, 7:11, 13, 14:3).

The Twenty-Four Elders are combined with thrones, white robes, and golden crowns. The term “elders” implies something with age or antiquity. There appear to be only a couple choices that combine both the number twenty-four with the word “elders” suggesting age.

One interpretation suggests that these 24 elders are connected with the 24 courses (24 “turns” or yearly two-week periods of service) of the priesthood found primarily in the Old Testament (1 Chronicles 23:1 - 24:19, 2 Chronicles 8:14, Ezra 6:18, and Luke 1:5-10 and 23). Thus the “elders” would represent the predestined nature of the church (Rom. 8:29-30).120 There is a certain appeal to this popular interpretation, but there are also a number of problems with this viewpoint.

Still others have suggested that the 24 elders represent the angels or only certain angels, but no one has put forward any direct or indirect link between angels and the 24 elders.

Another suggestion – and one that is favored here – is that the 24 elders represent the final arrangement of the books of the Hebrew Old Testament. In Revelation 12:14, the woman (the church) is given two wings (Old and New Testaments) of the “great eagle” (God in His wisdom is the great, far-seeing eagle). In the throne scene in Revelation chapters 4 and 5, each of the four living ones has six wings equaling 24 wings altogether (4:8). Since there are 24 elders in these chapters (and this is the only other reference to 24 in the throne scene or elsewhere in Revelation as a whole besides the 24 elders), it is suggestive that the 24 elders are connected to the 24 wings and may represent individual books of the Bible (the Old Testament in this case).

The number of books here differs from modern Christian Bibles because books like Kings, Chronicles, Samuel, etc. were each considered one book and the “minor prophets” after Daniel were considered one book, etc.

Originally, there were only 22 books in the Hebrew Old Testament, matching the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet. However, during the same time period that the New Testament was being assembled, the number of books in the Hebrew Old Testament was unwittingly being revised by the Jewish leadership to 24 books… and thus matching the number of letters in the Greek alphabet of the New Testament. These 24 books are still the number of books listed today in most versions of the Tanakh (i.e., in the Jewish arrangement of the Old Testament).

One reason to think the 24 elders represent the Old Testament books is the change in what they sing. The 24 elders first sing in 4:11, but then after the appearance of the Lamb in 5:5-8 they fall down to worship along with the four living ones and sing once again. However, the second time they sing, they sing a “new song” (5:8-10). This new song is the new understanding of their prophecies that follows the appearance of the Lamb and the opening of the door to the “high calling” (John 10:1-9, 1 Pet. 1:9-10).

As will be seen when the five praises are considered, these five praises follow a sequence from before creation to eternity. The point at which the 24 elders sing a “new song” is at the time of Jesus and the beginning of the church. The rest of the description of the 24 elders then follows appropriately. The use of elders suggests something from antiquity. The thrones represent a position of judgment. The principles of the books of the Old Testament and the Law they contain determine the rightness and wrongness of any course. The golden crowns represent the rightful authority of the books of the Old Testament and the principles they contain. The white robes represent the purity of God’s word in the Old Testament. All of these characteristics of the scriptures, symbolized by the 24 elders, can be found repeatedly in Psalm 119, as well as in many other places.

 

[ElieG12]

...One interpretation suggests that these 24 elders are connected with the 24 courses (24 “turns” or yearly two-week periods of service) of the priesthood found primarily in the Old Testament (1 Chronicles 23:1 - 24:19, 2 Chronicles 8:14, Ezra 6:18, and Luke 1:5-10 and 23). Thus the “elders” would represent the predestined nature of the church (Rom. 8:29-30).120 There is a certain appeal to this popular interpretation, but there are also a number of problems with this viewpoint.

Agreed on this one, as said before here

The Bible teaches that Jesus was the first to be raised from the dead to live in heaven. In fact, we are told that he was the one who opened the door to that place for human beings, who must die and be resurrected in a different form in order to enter the place where the spirits dwell. This means that no one before Jesus could be ascended to heaven.

So, if the 24 elders refer to a group of resurrected humans, they can only be humans who lived after Jesus.

Rev. 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.”
To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

... 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.

The number 24 may be symbolic of a larger group. For example, in the service of the priests in the temple, there were 24 divisions that divided the service at certain times, and so all the Levitical priests took turns serving there (1 Chron. 24:4; Luke 1:5,8,9). This may be the reference and meaning of the number 24 of the elders in heaven: a representation of all the priests who serve in God's temple in heaven.

Still others have suggested that the 24 elders represent the angels or only certain angels, but no one has put forward any direct or indirect link between angels and the 24 elders.

The crowns mean these "24 elders" were given positions of authority in heaven. The Bible only speaks of humans receiving these positions in heaven; Authority over humanity, represented by positions and a crown like to be a king, is given exclusively to those who have been faithful humans, so everything indicates that it's not referring to created beings like spirits.

Another suggestion (...) the 24 elders represent the final arrangement of the books of the Hebrew Old Testament. (...) These 24 books are still the number of books listed today in most versions of the Tanakh (i.e., in the Jewish arrangement of the Old Testament).

(...) One reason to think the 24 elders represent the Old Testament books...

Christians explore different points of view, but they are not easily confused by any of the many opinions circulating in the religious world. For example, claiming that the 24 elders of Revelation are the books of the Old Testament requires a lot of imagination. What does the number of books in the Old Testament have to do with heavenly visions?

 

[Hiddenthings]

The crowns mean these "24 elders" were given positions of authority in heaven.

The imagery of in Heaven really throws many off its true symbol.

This is a Heavenly Government on Earth.

 

[David in NJ]

Friends, it's been daunting in my mind about this subject, and will not mislead anyone who participates, into falsehood.

To Al-Mighty GOD alone be all Honor, Glory and Praise in Jesus Mighty name for ever and ever. Amen.

Let's begin, for these 24 elders in Heaven are probably the 'patriarchs of Israel', do you all agree or disagree?

Is there any Biblical reference it is them and they have been taken up already?

And do the 'patriarchs' of the Old Testament result to 24 of them by count?

We read 'Enoch' and 'Elijah' were taken up alive in the same 'body', and too 'Moses', who with 'Elijah' appeared to meet Jesus in the New Testament

When scripture in the New Testament read, 'Flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of GOD'.

Salvation for the remission of sins was achieved in the New Testament.

And at the 'first resurrection', the dead in Christ shall rise and the living and remain, shall be 'changed' to the Heavenly body before 'taken up'.

'For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of GOD', for the 'patriarchs of Israel' are included too.

Let's reason, 'Enoch' was 'taken up' when the Law not given yet and sin is not recorded, therefore his body not included in sin and death.

But 'Elijah' was during the time of the Law and sin is being recorded, including his, how come 'bodily defiled', he's 'taken up'?

Probably exempted because the Law have daily rituals, where an Israelite's remission of sins is paid at the end of day, and he have complied.

Hence, satan and the angel of 'death' have no power over his 'body' and 'soul' since his sins are forgiven and taken away for the day.

Therefore when he's taken up his 'body' and 'soul' have been found 'pure' by chance, another way to put it, if i may?

Thank you and shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

Let's reason, 'Enoch' was 'taken up' when the Law not given yet and sin is not recorded, therefore his body not included in sin and death.

Let's not use human reasoning here to replace Scriptural Truth.

TRUTH = "For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die,"

 

[Hiddenthings]

Let's not use human reasoning here to replace Scriptural Truth.

TRUTH = "For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die,"

Agree with this David

 

[ElieG12]

The imagery of in Heaven really throws many off its true symbol.

This is a Heavenly Government on Earth.

I agree.

The things written in the Bible are addressed to humans, so that we may see what God's purpose is for the inhabitants of the earth, and what things are happening in the heavens that have to do with our future.

The Bible speaks of the Kingdom of God, and in Revelation, as well as in the book of Hebrews, we are given details about a group of humans who are selected to be kings and priests alongside Jesus during the Millennium. They will live in heaven and sit on thrones with Jesus, indicating that they will act as kings, priests, and judges of humanity.

For these roles, angels will not be chosen, but humans trained to judge humans fairly and mercifully, because they have already experienced hardships like those all humans endure. Angels do not know exactly how we humans of flesh and blood feel.

 

[Fred J]

I believe,but can offer NO proof...just something for y'all to ponder.
12 of the Elders are Jews!
The other 12 are those that have "earned" that spot from being the "fulness of the gentiles!"

i disagree.

According to the wisdom given us from above in Jesus name, they are the 24 elders from the 'patriarchs of Israel' who walked with GOD in the Old Testament.

Most of them died and were buried, but there are account in the Holy Bible scripture, three of them were 'taken up' at that time.

They're Enoch, Elijah, and Moses who's body have been a dispute between satan and Michael the archangel, without Moses present there.

Ask yourself, why Moses' body have been an issue of dispute between the angel of darkness and angel of Light?

When also there's no similar incident in the Holy Bible about the same dispute about other 'bodies'?

Looks like when Michael the archangel came to earth to 'claim' the body of Moses, satan the god of this world and have power over the angel of death, prevented him.

There's a reason why Michael the archangel sent by GOD, came to claim the body of Moses, when supposedly Moses should've receive the Heavenly body.

When in the New Testament and GOD's New Covenant made with Jew and Gentile church, flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of GOD.

But in the Old Testament and Old Covenant of GOD made with Israel, there's no such rule, and GOD will that Enoch and Elijah be 'taken up' in the same body.

 

[Fred J]

The numbers support your interpretation! same as the 144,000 12 x 12 Jew & Gentile

i disagree.

They are the remaining 'all Israel' 144, 000 from the 12 tribes in the end shall be saved, after the full number of Gentiles have come into salvation.