50 Things You Should Know About Tongues And Healing

[fivesense]

Wohh! This will be fun!
God tricked me into going to a Pentecostal church in the 90’s. I spent the first 6 months arguing with the pastor about baptism in the Holy Spirit, tongues, etc. I lost (or won, depending on how you look at it)

.
I couldn’t now imagine life as a Christian without the infilling of the Holy Spirit, the revelation, purpose, direction, chastisement and joy that comes from a close relation with Him.
The breadth of understanding I now have of God and the sense of inadequacy as I realise how little of God I know!
Tongues is incredible. It “builds up (edifies)” my Spirit. When I truly don’t know what to pray I can start in tongues and then I get a sense of how God wants to move in the situation and can then start praying in English.
The Gift of prophecy has been so useful in enriching the lives of the believers I am in contact with (from all walks of life).
You talk about things being perfect now. I really don’t know what world you live in. The one I’m in still has disease, sickness, injury, demonic oppression, demonic oppression, unbelief and evil.
I still do not know perfectly, nor see clearly.
Assuming you are not a RC, answer me this. If all of this was supposed to have died out with the first century and the Bible become the only source of inspiration, why was the cannon of scripture not set until the time of Martin Luther?
(If you are a RC then we shouldn’t be having this discussion since miracles, etc, are fully part of their tradition)
Why are changes in understanding and theology still being fought over today if we now know perfectly?
Just because God doesn’t work actively in your world does not mean that he cannot choose to elsewhere. Pick you major reformer in the evangelical church over the last 2000 years and I will tell you about the signs, wonders and miracles that have accompanied them. The Wesleyans, the Booths, the Welsh Revival, the great awakenings in the US, all of them have come with signs, wonders and miracles. You can try to keep your God in a box if you want to, but mine keeps breaking out & I love it!
Show me ANYWHERE in the scriptures where knowledge of law or scripture was the yardstick that God used. Everywhere you turn it’s the same as in Jesus’ parable of the sheep and goats – depart from me, I never knew you (Matthew 25:31-46).

Grat, how are you doing?

I would like to enjoy participating in your "fun". I am not certain the source of your entertainment on this issue, and, if it would please you, you may clarify that remark.

Regarding responding directly to your questions, I welcome such an honor, to give answer to the things of God that are difficult or unclear to the apprehension. In your case, the issue is not unclear. You have determined that your position is correct, and for me to be unlike you in understanding is to my detriment. So be it; I do not object.

Should you be interested in obtaining truth, without allowing bias or prejudice to interfere with your judgment, then we may be able to proceed in examining the verity of my conclusions. However, I realize the difficulty in releasing one's self from emotional and psychological ties in order to obtain truth. I have the same trouble with my own mind. The mind of Christ is not our mind, and it is too easy to believe it is our own thoughts that are inspired, when in truth only the Word of God is.

I am glad you are attending this site, you are guileless and faithfilled. Such a person can only be enjoyed by those who call upon the name of the Lord out of a pure heart. Please feel free to address me on any issue, and should you allow it, I will respond.

fivesense

 

[Grat]

Firstly, if there was any offence taken, please accept my apologies. It was not my intention. My intention was to indicate my expectation that my response would probably foster a heated debate. This is good. It is through such discussions that we learn more about each other and extent our knowledge of both the positions of others on various topics and our own. Its conversations where everybody politely agrees with everyone else that I walk away from knowing there has been no change.
Change is good – necessary for us to go from glory to glory.
As to determining that my position is correct, sorry to break the news to you but EVERYONE assumes they are correct. Maybe I’m just a little more honest to admit that I think I’m correct. I’ve never meet anyone who (at the core of things) isn’t assuming that they are correct. Even the clinically insane believe that they are correct.
Parallel to this I also know that I’m wrong. I know enough about God to know that we are dealing with the infinite here. I can’t get a proper grasp on my section of reality never alone the infinity of God. I know that my beliefs have to be (to various extents) wrong, simply because I am not yet perfect. I know still in part, once I shed this form then I will know in full. On that glorious day when I meet Jesus face to face I will for the first time grasp the depth, width and height of His love for me. The wisdom and breadth of His plan and it’s fruition in the wedding feast of the Lamb. My spirit is soaring just thinking about it. My soul cries out for the Living God.
If you think my response left you no room to reply, then again I apologise for this was not my intent. Please, show me your heart, show me how we differ, for in your image of God will be truth that I have not yet seen, just as in mine there will be truth that you have not yet seen.

 

[fivesense]

Firstly, if there was any offence taken, please accept my apologies. It was not my intention. My intention was to indicate my expectation that my response would probably foster a heated debate. This is good. It is through such discussions that we learn more about each other and extent our knowledge of both the positions of others on various topics and our own. Its conversations where everybody politely agrees with everyone else that I walk away from knowing there has been no change.
Change is good – necessary for us to go from glory to glory.
As to determining that my position is correct, sorry to break the news to you but EVERYONE assumes they are correct. Maybe I’m just a little more honest to admit that I think I’m correct. I’ve never meet anyone who (at the core of things) isn’t assuming that they are correct. Even the clinically insane believe that they are correct.
Parallel to this I also know that I’m wrong. I know enough about God to know that we are dealing with the infinite here. I can’t get a proper grasp on my section of reality never alone the infinity of God. I know that my beliefs have to be (to various extents) wrong, simply because I am not yet perfect. I know still in part, once I shed this form then I will know in full. On that glorious day when I meet Jesus face to face I will for the first time grasp the depth, width and height of His love for me. The wisdom and breadth of His plan and it’s fruition in the wedding feast of the Lamb. My spirit is soaring just thinking about it. My soul cries out for the Living God.
If you think my response left you no room to reply, then again I apologise for this was not my intent. Please, show me your heart, show me how we differ, for in your image of God will be truth that I have not yet seen, just as in mine there will be truth that you have not yet seen.

Grat, I so appreciate the way you are putting yourself forward here, and to be able to maintain a sane mind is imperative in discussion of the deep things of God. I have no doubt that you can certainly enter into those things. You display useful spiritual understanding and grasp concepts of the heart and mind that transcend the nominal believer. I was never offended, and your sensitivity to that shows a great deal about you.

While our conversation is a departure from the OP, is may be a divergence needed for all to see. I pray that the humility and forebearance that is necessary for advancement in Christ be liberally spread across the Board to all members.

Now, it is nothing to me that I be correct in a matter. I have no desire to be right about anything. Knowledge is useful, but lacking in grace. It leads to legalism, as you already know, and benefits no one. I want to share with others what the Lord has uncovered for me to delight in. It may not be to the liking of others. It may even cause conflict. If it does, like yourself, I will seek conciliation for I do not want to carry offense to the Dais of Christ, where brothers and sisters will give an account of the things they have done with and against one another. I percieve all conversations as being recorded and documented in the celestials, and accountability for every idle word will be addressed, as well as every ministration of growth to the Body rewarded. Nothing is unimportant or trivial, nothing.

If you would like to restate your questions to me at this juncture, feel free to do so. Previously, it appeared as if they arose out of contention and not for love of the truth, but I could be mistaken. They were however emotionally wrought from a deep place in your heart. I respect that and do not seek to subvert your faith.

Debate is not needed where the sons and daughters of God are seeking earnestly after the truth. It is not about debate, it is about submitting to the Word of truth, and yielding our members, our minds, to Him, according to what He has written. Without such, being led of the Spirit is merely theoretical and not a reality.

fivesense.

 

[Jimmy Engle]

I really can't see how it contradicts scripture.

The modern day use of tongues is used for edification of the believer...but that is not what the gift is intended for. It's a sign for unbelievers to come to the saving faith in God. However it's not used correctly anymore...which is why it's hard to believe people who claim that the gift of tongues still exists. This is why Paul kept hitting hard on prophesying...it edified the church. The church is what needs to be edified...not the individual. To use tongues in such a way as to edify yourself just proves you are not using it according to Paul's teaching. Christ warned us that many will say that they performed miracles and did this and that...but they never truly had a relationship with God...but they thought they did. They were deceived and went wayward. The path is narrow....too many people relying on something spiritual instead of placing their entire life in the hands of God's word and trusting that everything God has said is true.

So many people are looking to receive a gift for assurance of their salvation...or that they truly are used by God. That is not faith. True faith is believing without seeing what it is you believe....if you did....you would be dead.

 

[Grat]

The modern day use of tongues is used for edification of the believer...but that is not what the gift is intended for. It's a sign for unbelievers to come to the saving faith in God.

Sorry, but I cannot see how you get this out of the passages being discussed. How more clearly would you like Paul to say it?
It edifies the believers. 1 Corinthians 14:4
If used corporately in conjunction with interpretation it edifies the body and is as good as prophecy. 1 Corinthians 14:5
Paul would like it that everyone spoke in tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:5

I never mentioned it as a sign of salvation, nor an indicator of someone's spirituality or lack thereof. It is a blessed gift, given by the Spirit to whom He will. Should I not use it for the very thing that Paul says it is for, my edification, because someone else may misuse it? Should I not allow myself to be built up, therefore making me a better tool in God's hand to build up the body? Should I not, where the gift of interpretation is in operation, use it publically the way that Paul describes?
I certainly don't go around slapping people in the face with tongues, telling them they are or are not saved because of it (Matthew 7:21-23). But in the same way I will not hide the gift under some barrel and not use it, or not extol, when appropriate, its virtues.
The most bizarre thing here is that very thing that most people against tongues decry (the public use of tongues) is the only thing you say we’re allowed to do.

 

[Jimmy Engle]

1 Cor 14:4 is NOT referring to the true gift of tongues......it's referring to the Pagan babble that was influencing the church at that time. Many of believers were former pagans.....1 Cor 12:2

 

[brionne]

Sorry, but I cannot see how you get this out of the passages being discussed. How more clearly would you like Paul to say it?
It edifies the believers. 1 Corinthians 14:4
If used corporately in conjunction with interpretation it edifies the body and is as good as prophecy. 1 Corinthians 14:5
Paul would like it that everyone spoke in tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:5

It seems that no one knows what is actually being spoken when someone is speaking in tongues today. The tongues that were spoken in the first century were actual 'languages'. To trully speak in a 'tongue' you would basically be speaking in an African language to a group of non believers or an asian language....you wouldnt be speaking gibberish at all. The gift was the ability to communicate the word of God with people of different 'tongues'


Acts 2:5-11 says: "5 As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven. 6 So, when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Indeed, they were astonished and began to wonder and say: “See here, all these who are speaking are Gal‧i‧le′ans, are they not? 8 And yet how is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? 9 Par′thi‧ans and Medes and E′lam‧ites, and the inhabitants of Mes‧o‧po‧ta′mi‧a, and Ju‧de′a and Cap‧pa‧do′ci‧a, Pon′tus and the [district of] Asia, 10 and Phryg′i‧a and Pam‧phyl′i‧a, Egypt and the parts of Lib′y‧a, which is toward Cy‧re′ne, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cre′tans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.”


So if a person is speaking the same gift from God as he gave the 1st century christians, he is speaking a new language for the benefit of telling non believers about Christ. If the tongues you experience are not like that, then you should question what is really going on.

 

[Grat]

1 Cor 14:4 is NOT referring to the true gift of tongues......it's referring to the Pagan babble that was influencing the church at that time. Many of believers were former pagans.....1 Cor 12:2

If it's babble, how can it be translated? 1 Corinthians 14:4-5. Also, Paul talks here about it being a good thing. Are you saying that babbling is a good thing?

 

[Grat]

It seems that no one knows what is actually being spoken when someone is speaking in tongues today. The tongues that were spoken in the first century were actual 'languages'. To trully speak in a 'tongue' you would basically be speaking in an African language to a group of non believers or an asian language....you wouldnt be speaking gibberish at all. The gift was the ability to communicate the word of God with people of different 'tongues'


Acts 2:5-11 says: "5 As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven. 6 So, when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Indeed, they were astonished and began to wonder and say: “See here, all these who are speaking are Gal‧i‧le′ans, are they not? 8 And yet how is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? 9 Par′thi‧ans and Medes and E′lam‧ites, and the inhabitants of Mes‧o‧po‧ta′mi‧a, and Ju‧de′a and Cap‧pa‧do′ci‧a, Pon′tus and the [district of] Asia, 10 and Phryg′i‧a and Pam‧phyl′i‧a, Egypt and the parts of Lib′y‧a, which is toward Cy‧re′ne, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cre′tans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.”


So if a person is speaking the same gift from God as he gave the 1st century christians, he is speaking a new language for the benefit of telling non believers about Christ. If the tongues you experience are not like that, then you should question what is really going on.

Well, as I know people with the gift of interpretation I can state that your first point is wrong. In addition I usually know – at least generally – what I am saying. This has sharpened as I have learned to move with the Spirit over the years. It has been my experience that some (maybe many?) believers who do speak in tongues do not have any understanding, but I can only really speak about what I know, and I will certainly not speculate as to why my experience is different.
Pegg, I don’t think this discussion is going to be worth pursuing as we both seem to have our minds made up. There is nothing you are saying that I didn’t say 20 odd years ago before the Holy Spirit blindsided me. It took the Holy Spirit to convince me then that I was wrong, so I don’t like your chances to change my mind back.

 

[Jimmy Engle]

If it's babble, how can it be translated? 1 Corinthians 14:4-5. Also, Paul talks here about it being a good thing. Are you saying that babbling is a good thing?

Paul never said that pagan gibberish was able to be interpreted. In 1 Cor 14:4...Paul is referring to pagan gibberish...In 1 Cor 14:5 Paul was referring to the real gift of tongues...real languages that can be understood by others who speak it. Paul was teaching that the only way tongues is useful is if it can be interpreted...otherwise you are not going to edify the church or other believers. This is why tongues doesn't have any practical use while among other believers....the gift was designed to shatter the language barrier that would have kept the early disciples from spreading the gospel to foreign places. Do you understand?

 

[Martin W.]

There have been a few documented cases (in modern day) where tongues were spoken for a purpose and were prompted by the Holy Spirit.

These tongues were in a foreign language unknown to the speaker and for the benefit of someone there who did understand the language. Conviction and salvation were the end result (for the hearer of the tongues).

There have been cases where missionaries have suddenly been able to speak in the language of a remote jungle tribe. Until that point the lives of the missionaries were in danger (warrior tribe) . After the tongues were spoken , lives were spared and the tribe was converted.

In some of these cases the speaker of the tongues was not from a Pentecostal background or denomination.

I find these cases rare compared to the seemingly constant babble found in some settings. A constant babble that appears to serve no purpose and benefits no one but the speaker , who thinks he is communicating with God and Angels.

20 years later some of those folks are still repeating those same tongue phrases yet show no evidence that God nor Angels have had any influence on them.

Just my observations

Best regards

Martin.

 

[Grat]

There have been a few documented cases (in modern day) where tongues were spoken for a purpose and were prompted by the Holy Spirit.

These tongues were in a foreign language unknown to the speaker and for the benefit of someone there who did understand the language. Conviction and salvation were the end result (for the hearer of the tongues).

There have been cases where missionaries have suddenly been able to speak in the language of a remote jungle tribe. Until that point the lives of the missionaries were in danger (warrior tribe) . After the tongues were spoken , lives were spared and the tribe was converted.

In some of these cases the speaker of the tongues was not from a Pentecostal background or denomination.

I find these cases rare compared to the seemingly constant babble found in some settings. A constant babble that appears to serve no purpose and benefits no one but the speaker , who thinks he is communicating with God and Angels.

20 years later some of those folks are still repeating those same tongue phrases yet show no evidence that God nor Angels have had any influence on them.

Just my observations

Best regards

Martin.

Yes it's sad. I come accross people all the time like that. Just like I come accross people all the time who have been a christian for years. Attending the studies, the services, tithing, praying, etc, and are still the same misserable so-and-so they were 20 years ago.
This doesn't invalidate church - just points out that people are the same accross all denominations. For me, my whole experience with the Holy Spirit has taken me to places I never would have gone without him. I thank God for all his grace poured out on me over the years and look forward to the wild adventure that's still in front of me.

 

[Grat]

Paul never said that pagan gibberish was able to be interpreted. In 1 Cor 14:4...Paul is referring to pagan gibberish...In 1 Cor 14:5 Paul was referring to the real gift of tongues...real languages that can be understood by others who speak it. Paul was teaching that the only way tongues is useful is if it can be interpreted...otherwise you are not going to edify the church or other believers. This is why tongues doesn't have any practical use while among other believers....the gift was designed to shatter the language barrier that would have kept the early disciples from spreading the gospel to foreign places. Do you understand?

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. After re-reading all of 1 Corinthians 14 I just can't see how you can split it that way. To me he weaves the whole chapter together into the point he is making about the superiority of prophecy over tongues. To me he doesn’t say anything negative about tongues, just about how much better prophecy is in a communal setting.
Out of curiosity, how many of you have prophecy in your services on a regular basis? I’m not talking about a sermon, I mean a real, God inspired prophecy?
I wonder how many have thrown out the baby, bath water and the bath itself?

 

[fivesense]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. After re-reading all of 1 Corinthians 14 I just can't see how you can split it that way. To me he weaves the whole chapter together into the point he is making about the superiority of prophecy over tongues. To me he doesn’t say anything negative about tongues, just about how much better prophecy is in a communal setting.
Out of curiosity, how many of you have prophecy in your services on a regular basis? I’m not talking about a sermon, I mean a real, God inspired prophecy?
I wonder how many have thrown out the baby, bath water and the bath itself?

I appreciate your patience here with those of us who are under the conviction that glossais has, for all intents and purposes, been discarded until the Lord's advent, and the empowering of Israel takes place once more. During the Corinthian era the Holy Spirit gift of languages was given to those who were being empowered to witness the Kingdom and the King being near at hand. Prior to His return the gifts will once more manifest in the Jewish ecclesia, in order to fulfill God's plan of salvation. The ecclesia of Corinth had Jewish and Gentile believers sharing their faith in Christ according to Paul's evangel. As that which was in part became complete, the revelation of the secrets by Paul, the gifts were being withdrawn as faith, expectation and love became the chief components of God's operations by His Holy Spirit. The Gentiles were never meant to share in the promise to reign on the earth. That was never given to them by God. But the Body complement, and the secret of a joint body of Jew and Gentile on equal footing in the celestials was God's answer to that dilema. God is no respecter of persons, and for us to enjoy sonship outside of Israel's suzerainty, God made a way through the blood of the cross.

I do not deny that out of human faith and sincerity, good and pious believers entertain the idea that they are speaking in an unknown language. I believed the same for myself for years, having been enabled to reproduce the exhibition of glossa in my flesh. I now know, with the help of correctly dividing the word of truth and the mercy and grace of God, that it is an artificial experience, no matter how sincere or convinced we are that such a thing exists in the Gentile interim. When I was a child, I spake as a child, but when that which is perfect came, the new creation and the three transcendent graces of faith, expectation and love, I moved on to maturity and embrace the Living Word alone.

He is not coming again for salvation when He returns, it will be for chastening and judgment. The time of grace and mercy will be over at His advent to earth and His coming for the saints. The elect of Israel will begin to function in the powerful, reconciling ministration of Christ as the Son of David on His throne, when He sets up His Kingdom on earth at that time. Then the Holy Spirit gifts will find application again, as Israel goes forth to the nations as kings and priests, interceding for all the earth as God's chosen people.

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ,
[who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Col 3:2-4

Our allotment is with Him in the heavens, not on earth. As immortal and deathless beings, changed into His likeness, we will not share in Israel's reconciliation on the earth. The heavens must be reconciled and that is our portion with the Christ of God. The spiritual gifts belong to the era of minority and instruction, an era that we have outstipped and moved beyond as the new creations that compose the Body of Christ.

fivesense.

 

[brionne]

Well, as I know people with the gift of interpretation I can state that your first point is wrong. In addition I usually know – at least generally – what I am saying. This has sharpened as I have learned to move with the Spirit over the years. It has been my experience that some (maybe many?) believers who do speak in tongues do not have any understanding, but I can only really speak about what I know, and I will certainly not speculate as to why my experience is different.
Pegg, I don’t think this discussion is going to be worth pursuing as we both seem to have our minds made up. There is nothing you are saying that I didn’t say 20 odd years ago before the Holy Spirit blindsided me. It took the Holy Spirit to convince me then that I was wrong, so I don’t like your chances to change my mind back.

ok thats fair enough then

Can i just ask you what languages you are able to speak in and who do you speak to when you are speaking in tongues?

Out of curiosity, how many of you have prophecy in your services on a regular basis? I’m not talking about a sermon, I mean a real, God inspired prophecy?
I wonder how many have thrown out the baby, bath water and the bath itself?

all the prophecies that we need have already been provided for us so I can't imagine that we have need of anything new right now....the bible is 'complete' and we know everythign that is going to happen from now thru to the end of the 1000 years of Christs Millenial reign and thru to the time when people will once again become the 'children of God' and be fully reconciled to him.

Apart from the unopened scrolls of revelation (which wont be opened until after 'the great day of God') what more could we possibly need to know?

 

[Paul]

ok thats fair enough then

Can i just ask you what languages you are able to speak in and who do you speak to when you are speaking in tongues?




all the prophecies that we need have already been provided for us so I can't imagine that we have need of anything new right now....the bible is 'complete' and we know everythign that is going to happen from now thru to the end of the 1000 years of Christs Millenial reign and thru to the time when people will once again become the 'children of God' and be fully reconciled to him.

Apart from the unopened scrolls of revelation (which wont be opened until after 'the great day of God') what more could we possibly need to know?

A bit different subject so I will not pursue it here but, pegg, Revelation is open.

 

[brionne]

A bit different subject so I will not pursue it here but, pegg, Revelation is open.

Yes i agree that revelation is open, but revelation tells us that the 'scroll of life' is yet to be opened at Rev 20:12

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

John did not give the details of what is written in that scroll...all he said is that the dead were judged out of the things written in that scroll. This means no one will know what is contained in that scroll until the time it is opened.

 

[Martin W.]

Yes i agree that revelation is open, but revelation tells us that the 'scroll of life' is yet to be opened at Rev 20:12

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

John did not give the details of what is written in that scroll...all he said is that the dead were judged out of the things written in that scroll. This means no one will know what is contained in that scroll until the time it is opened.

Yes Pegg. I think you have it right. Thanks.

 

[jiggyfly]

When I speak/pray with the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues I am speaking to God and if it is in front of people and what I speak by HolySpirit is beneficial to others, either someone else or myself will interpret by the spiritual gift of interpretation of tongues.

 

[gregg]

greetings brothers and sisters in our lord jesus. heres my thoughts the ones who believe in tongues or the gift of tongues see them in operation in their lives. the ones that don't believe don't see them in their life the same goes for healing the ones that have seen healing in their lives believe in healing and the ones that have not seen healing work in their lives don't. so to convince the ones that posess or have seen is useless because they have evidence. and that evidence came from faith in gods word that they believed. but they had to believe first. god won't work for one and not the other he's not a respecter of person true. but he is moved by faith and we all have a measure of it equally devided to everyone. the key to faith is love but patience is faiths timeclock for results. theirs people that don't believe in jesus but the ones who have him will never be convinced otherwise and the ones that don't will have to be convinced. but you will never convince a unwilling heart only god can call and only they can choose. you ask anything in my name in love