50 Things You Should Know About Tongues And Healing

[marksman]

Thankyou John for your OP on the subject of tongues. It is very useful to make you think and study the subject. I am of the belief that you don’t know what you believe until you are challenged, that is why I spend a lot of time debating atheists.

I thought I would add a few thoughts as it might help clarify the situation. First of all, no one believes that the bible is the word of God. WE all believe that our interpretation of it is the word of God. If that wasn’t the case, we would all believe the same thing, so what John posted is not the problem, it is our interpretation.

I have selected some quotes (without names) to show that in giving an interpretation, it is important to make sure that you don’t contradict the obvious.

People who believe they speak in tongues or can heal boast in it...they are not humble before God but rather boast in gifts they believe they have received. If someone really has the ability to heal then why are they not in hospitals healing people...no they hide behind a pulpit.

NOTE: These people are not representative of biblical Christianity, so it is important NOT to use them as examples to prove a point.

In all honesty, I think for the most part, the signs/manifestations that occur today are fake.

NOTE: This is a very dangerous statement for two reasons. One if a miracle does happen say a child is raised from the dead; it is hardly ingenious to say that it is a fake and that it did not happen. Two such an event can only happen if the Holy Spirit is involved. The scriptures tell us that the unforgivable sin is to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. To do that means that you call the work of the Holy Spirit the work of the devil, which is what you are doing if you are calling miracles that happen a fake.

I never said any such thing...this post is from the work of another and not my own

NOTE: when you post something you must be prepared to back it up even if what you posted has been written by someone else.

The tongues that the disciples in the first century spoke were actual foreign languages. This gift was given in order for the Jewish disciples to preach to the gentiles....many of whom did not speak Hebrew or Greek. Acts 2:5-6 "As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven. 6 So, when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language."

NOTE: You say the gift was given to allow the Jewish disciples to preach to the gentiles. Yet the verse you have quoted to back that up says “there were dwelling in Jerusalem JEWS,….from every nation under heaven. No mention of gentiles.

What kind of tongue do you think Paul is referring to here? 1Cor. 14:2

NOTE: in this verse the word tongues in the Greek is “glossa” which means speaking in another language as in Arabic, French, and Scandinavian etc.

For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, [fn]you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious.

NOTE: Again, the word is glossa which means speaking in another foreign language. In an English speaking country, speaking French would be a mystery to most. Paul is saying that is not what he wants to happen. He wanted interpretation of the language. In other words, someone who understand French.

Its for that reason that the gifts were said to eventually 'cease' 1 Corinthians 13:8, 9, 10 they had served their purpose in establishing the true religion and those whom God was identifying himself with. The millions of believers today are a result of the first century congregation so we could say that God was quite successful.

NOTE: The problem with this comment is that the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased. In Nigeria, raising people from the dead is as commonplace as going to a meeting. That means the scripture is not wrong, the interpretation is.

Also, our faith must be based on 'truth'....this is referring to knowledge. We need accurate knowledge as Jesus said at John 17:3

NOTE: Yet those who believe that the gifts have ceased haven’t noticed that it says that knowledge will pass away as well. How can faith be based on knowledge if it has passed away?

Oh and Martin...I'm not just talking to you...this goes for everyone...if I feel like debating on this I would have put it in that section....I am not here to debate every little post I make. I am here to fellowship and spread truth...that is all

NOTE: The so called “truth” is subjective so the truth is that you are spreading your interpretation of the truth.

Spiritual gifts were needed in the past in order to convince people that God was with the Christians and in fulfillement of the above prophecy. Have a look at Acts 2:5,6,7 The tongues being spoken were foreign languages for the purpose of reaching foreign nations with the message of God.

NOTE: Spiritual gifts were needed in the past and are needed in THE PRESENT. The western church has dumbed down the gospel and removed the supernatural from it. Places like Africa still believe what the bible says and as a result miracles are happening all the time and people are being added to the church daily as a result. Can we say the same about our church in the West?

So love is the identifying mark of a true Christian, not tongues, not prophesying, not raising the dead....just love.

NOTE: This comment is nothing new and people have said as long as we love one another we don’t need anything else. One might say as long as we have been born again we don’t need sanctification. One might say as long as we attend meetings we don’t need holiness. Love and the Gifts have different purposes so we need both.

The only reason why this could be so is because the miraculous gifts were not going to be around forever as Paul said...they would cease and it seems that they ceased after the deaths of the apostles.

NOTE: Not if you want to see the obvious. I receive reports from all around the world and the miraculous happens all the time.

The accounts of gifts being performed in the bible were always in the company of the apostles so it would seem that logically, after the deaths of the apostles, the gifts ceased back then.

NOTE: I prefer to address things spiritually, not logically as the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit.

Its also apparent that by Jesus words at Matt. 7:21-23, that gifts were not the means of identifying the true Christians for he said "i never knew you" and these are the words for Christians living in the 'last days' which is our time today.

NOTE: This passage is not dealing with “true” Christians.

All I’m saying is that there is a better way to attain faith then on the things we can see. If faith is based on a visible thing, what happens to that faith if the visible thing goes away? Will the person continue to have faith? Perhaps not.

NOTE: When you pray for a dead person to receive life, you are not basing your faith on something visible. You are having faith in what God can do.

Whereas if the persons faith is based on knowledge and understanding, that is something that will always be with them and they will not be easily shaken from their faith because it is a faith based on reason and logic.

NOTE: That is not possible if “knowledge” has been done away with.

How do you know you have faith? By what you see.

NOTE: Faith the scripture tells is the evidence of things not seen.

And what new spiritual information could share with us that we don’t already have?

NOTE: The greatest thing that a believer can have is fellowship with the Father. I talk to him all the time and he talks to me. I expect him to tell me things I don’t know and which he does. Just imagine if you asked your earthly father something and he replied “go and read a book I have written.”

Ephesians 4:11 - Apostleship, Prophecy, Evangelism, Pastor/Teacher

NOTE: These are not gifts of the spirit. They are gifts of the ascended Christ.

The "gifts" will prove nothing to anyone today about the coming presence of the Lord on earth, the near-at-hand Kingdom, because when He returns to earth in flesh, it will be for judgment, not salvation.

NOTE: How do you know?

Just because God doesn’t work actively in your world does not mean that he cannot choose to elsewhere. Pick you major reformer in the evangelical church over the last 2000 years and I will tell you about the signs, wonders and miracles that have accompanied them. The Wesleyans, the Booths, the Welsh Revival, the great awakenings in the US, all of them have come with signs, wonders and miracles. You can try to keep your God in a box if you want to, but mine keeps breaking out & I love it!

NOTE: And them are the facts!!!!

As to determining that my position is correct, sorry to break the news to you but EVERYONE assumes they are correct.

NOTE: Quite correct.

all the prophecies that we need have already been provided for us so I can't imagine that we have need of anything new right now....the bible is 'complete' and we know everythign that is going to happen from now thru to the end of the 1000 years of Christs Millenial reign and thru to the time when people will once again become the 'children of God' and be fully reconciled to him.

NOTE: A prophecy is not about something new. It is about God speaking to his people about something that he wants them to know. I don’t think the Welsh revival was prophesied in the bible. I don’t think that a barren woman who had a prophecy that she was going to bear a child is prophesied in the bible.

Just a few thoughts that I hope will make you stop and think. Since the French Revolution, the western church has replaced the supernatural with the natural. As a result it is generally powerless, for the simple reason we are not fighting against flesh and blood. We are fighting against spiritual principalities and powers which mean satanic powers.

Paul didn’t say they were going to disappear when the bible was come because he didn‘t have any idea about a “bible“ coming into being. You try and defeat the devil with logic and he will wipe the floor with you. You come up against him with the power of the Holy Spirit and the supernatural authority of God which has been given to us and he is out of here quick smart.

If you think otherwise, the devil has you well and truly duped.

And finally, finally, ALL scripture is given by God for….not some of it.

 

[Paul]

...
I thought I would add a few thoughts as it might help clarify the situation. First of all, no one believes that the bible is the word of God. ...

....

And finally, finally, ALL scripture is given by God for ....not some of it.

You started by saying "no one believes that the Bible is the word of God" and you finish with, "ALL scripture is given by God for," which one is it, mark?

I believe Scripture is the Word of God! I believe 2Ti 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: ."

 

[marksman]

You started by saying "no one believes that the Bible is the word of God" and you finish with, "ALL scripture is given by God for," which one is it, mark?

I believe Scripture is the Word of God! I believe 2Ti 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: ."

One is what God has done and the other is what man does. God gave ALL scripture as in 2Tim 3:16 but man, in putting his own interpretation on it is saying whether they understand that they are or not, that they believe their interpretation of the Bible is the word of God.

If three people are discussing some passage of scripture and come to different conclusions about its meaning, they are saying they believe their interpretation, otherwise they would not give it as most people don't say what they think if they don't think it is the truth. If they are not sure, they usually ask a question.

 

[marksman]

A danger which this topic clearly emphasises, is that too many denominations make your doctrine the basis of fellowship or not as the case may be.

When you are asked "which church do you attend" it is a loaded question. Primarily the person is wanting to know if you are of the same spiritual tribe as they are. If you are not, they will not make any effort to fellowship with you for the simple reason your doctrine will be different to theirs and therefore incorrect. There are exceptions to every rule but the exception does not make the rule. We know this to be the truth as there are 10, 20, 30, 40...different spiritual tribes in each town and in most cases they never speak to each other.

I have thought about this a lot and I have come to the conclusion that I belong to his church as in Jesus saying "I will build MY church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." That means when I am asked what church I attend my answer would be "Is there more than one" or "the same one as you" or "His church."

Usually people respond by asking, "yes, but what church do you attend locally?" The answer is still the same.

The other thing is that I don't believe I am a member of A church. I am a member of THE church, worldwide and locally. According to scripture there is only one church in each town, which is an expression of the body of Christ, which means I am a member of HIS body, not mine or the xyz denomination.

I am at the stage now where I do not care what people identify themselves as i.e baptist, anglican, pentecostal, brethren etc. All I am interested in is their commitment to exalt Jesus and be true to the word of God. You don't have to ask them this as a few relevant questions will suss them out. You cannot fellowship with anyone unless you realise we are all members of the same body.

My fellowship is on the basis of the Cross and the word of God. Outside of that it is only socialising. As a result of this, I now fellowship in homes with other believers on the basis of Acts 2:46 Food, fellowship, prayer and teaching. No singing songs; no communion; no sermons; no collections; no pulpits, no programmes and no appointed clergy.

We operate on the basis that everyone is an able minister of the new covenant so anyone can contribute and edify the body of Christ. In, fact, I have taught it is their responsibility to do so as we are all one in Christ and the boss is Jesus not me.

Our backgrounds are in different denominations so we know we have different understandings of the word of God. However it is not an issue because we are committed to the body of Christ, not a rigid doctrine that implies we are right and everyone else is wrong, not a denomination and we are prepared to learn from each other, not from one man or woman.

If the treasure is in earthen vessels then it needs to come out and be shared around. As a trained teacher, I have learnt that sermons are a waste of time because they forget most of it. They remember more if they are involved in discovery and discussion and contribute. In fact 50% more.

 

[[email protected]]

A danger which this topic clearly emphasises, is that too many denominations make your doctrine the basis of fellowship or not as the case may be.

When you are asked "which church do you attend" it is a loaded question. Primarily the person is wanting to know if you are of the same spiritual tribe as they are. If you are not, they will not make any effort to fellowship with you for the simple reason your doctrine will be different to theirs and therefore incorrect. There are exceptions to every rule but the exception does not make the rule. We know this to be the truth as there are 10, 20, 30, 40...different spiritual tribes in each town and in most cases they never speak to each other.

I have thought about this a lot and I have come to the conclusion that I belong to his church as in Jesus saying "I will build MY church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." That means when I am asked what church I attend my answer would be "Is there more than one" or "the same one as you" or "His church."

Usually people respond by asking, "yes, but what church do you attend locally?" The answer is still the same.

The other thing is that I don't believe I am a member of A church. I am a member of THE church, worldwide and locally. According to scripture there is only one church in each town, which is an expression of the body of Christ, which means I am a member of HIS body, not mine or the xyz denomination.

I am at the stage now where I do not care what people identify themselves as i.e baptist, anglican, pentecostal, brethren etc. All I am interested in is their commitment to exalt Jesus and be true to the word of God. You don't have to ask them this as a few relevant questions will suss them out. You cannot fellowship with anyone unless you realise we are all members of the same body.

My fellowship is on the basis of the Cross and the word of God. Outside of that it is only socialising. As a result of this, I now fellowship in homes with other believers on the basis of Acts 2:46 Food, fellowship, prayer and teaching. No singing songs; no communion; no sermons; no collections; no pulpits, no programmes and no appointed clergy.

We operate on the basis that everyone is an able minister of the new covenant so anyone can contribute and edify the body of Christ. In, fact, I have taught it is their responsibility to do so as we are all one in Christ and the boss is Jesus not me.

Our backgrounds are in different denominations so we know we have different understandings of the word of God. However it is not an issue because we are committed to the body of Christ, not a rigid doctrine that implies we are right and everyone else is wrong, not a denomination and we are prepared to learn from each other, not from one man or woman.

If the treasure is in earthen vessels then it needs to come out and be shared around. As a trained teacher, I have learnt that sermons are a waste of time because they forget most of it. They remember more if they are involved in discovery and discussion and contribute. In fact 50% more.

Well said, and a good attitude for any Christian to adopt.
Arguments about spiritual manifestations are endless and do little to encourage the body of Christ. There are greater issues at hand.

I myself have decided to withdraw from Church membership entirely. There are too many churches in my area (West Central Florida), which have 'gone Disney'.
Building projects are number one on the list. Every preacher who can attract a mass of people dreams of building his own cathedral.
Bond issues and other mega financial issues are another which have soured my taste for organized religion here.

"they which devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayers; these shall receive greater condemnation."
Mar 12:40

This doesn't mean that I don't attend services or that I don't participate in other church activities. It only means that I refuse to "join".
Big churches just seem to have lost the vision of serving and worshipping Christ. Church has become a show, quite literally.

For example, the biggest show in town has a coffee shop IN THE SANCTUARY which is in full operation during worship services.
The coffee shop is quite elaborate and would put your average Starbucks to shame.

Is this respectful of Godly worship? Spiritually speaking, is this right?

This is why I have declined membership these days and why I think that argument about the gifts of the spirit are anti-Christian.
These spiritual things happen and continue to happen. Discussion and interpretations by those who are dried up do nothing to promote true spirituality.
They are helpful, however, in establishing a more earthly component to the worship service.

Praise the Lord and pass the Lattes.

 

[Grat]

Sorry peoples, been absent for a month (have a look here for one of the main reasons).
Where to start?
It's been great to see the various veiws held and the discussion that's been generated. Well done Marksman on wading into the frey so well.
'Grat

 

[fivesense]

Sorry peoples, been absent for a month (have a look here for one of the main reasons).
Where to start?
It's been great to see the various veiws held and the discussion that's been generated. Well done Marksman on wading into the frey so well.
'Grat

You old stick in the mud, welcome back

fivesense

 

[marksman]

I myself have decided to withdraw from Church membership entirely. There are too many churches in my area (West Central Florida), which have 'gone Disney'.
Building projects are number one on the list. Every preacher who can attract a mass of people dreams of building his own cathedral.
Bond issues and other mega financial issues are another which have soured my taste for organized religion here.

Praise the Lord and pass the Lattes.

You are not alone is this. My reading over the last few months has indicated that christians are leaving the church in droves and using houses to gather together. It is so important to get our foundation right. As I see it, you don't go to church, you are the church so you can't go to yourself. What we are a member of is the body of Christ which you become part of through repentance and baptism. Nothing more.

We don't need big churches (theatres) as the word says that where two or three are gathered together in my name, I will be in the midst. If you meet because you are christians then God is there. That means you can meet anywhere. Home, park, office, cafe, boat, hospital, school and a dozen other places.

The only reason we have big churches is to satisfy the ego of someone who wants to build his own kingdom. Not in my scripture so they don't interest me.

Blessings to you Grat.

 

[242006]

The most important things to know about tongues and healing is that there are no such things as 'spiritual gifts' or an 'unknown tongue' in the Bible manuscripts. Hence, all of you that are caught up in a tongue-twisting gibberish-speaking [you call it 'tongues'] church, based upon receipt of a gift from the Holy Spirit, are giving heed to seducing [Satanic] spirits. See 1 Tim. 4:1. Your church is only pseudo-christian in that you think that you are Christian, but, due to corruption within, you actually are Satanic. It is no surprise that all tongue-twisting churches believe in Satan's Doctrine, the Rapture, as well.

 

[Foreigner]

All encompasing, know-it-all "dialog" such as this ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ is one of the primary reasons why many people only bother with this site for a short while before moving on.
"My mind is made up so don't confuse me with the facts" seems to be the mantra here.

 

[Paul]

Topic closed!